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UnderGround Forums >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?


1/28/13 4:04 PM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 4:05 PM
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Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?

 

Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. 

I have nothing further to add your honor.

1/28/13 4:12 PM
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Lazer MMA
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D241 - 

Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?

 

Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. 

I have nothing further to add your honor.



Was he in danger in the fight with Maia D2?
1/28/13 4:15 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 01/28/13 4:16 PM
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"Did Anderson improve leaps and bounds after his Maia fight?"

No. Did Anderson display flashes of brilliance and a complete display of contempt for his opponent in the Maia fight? Yes. Did Maia out-throw and outland Anderson? No. Did Anderson outland Maia 62 to 20? Yes. 

If you're trying to say Anderson didn't improve leaps and bounds after the Maia fight, then why are you bringing up "improvement" in the first place to defend Alistair's performance against Werdum?

"Orcus says Werdum beat Overeem in their Strikeforce bout. "

I said if I remember right, I thought he won but didn't really care because they both sucked. Fightmetric, as I said, had Werdum winning both under their own system AND the 10-point must system. 

Also as I said, no matter who won the decision, it doesn't keep Alistair from looking like a mediocre striker in that fight.

"I have nothing further to add your honor."

Of course you don't, you don't have any kind of argument to make. The fact that you are fixating on the irrelevant question of who got or deserved the decision, and trying to equate Alistair's performance to Nate Quarry's against Kalib Starnes, really says it all.

I'll ask you again the one question that matters in this discussion, that you keep avoiding: Which mma fights should I watch to see Alistair display the same kind of standup brilliance as the three guys in the OP?

1/28/13 4:18 PM
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D241
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There's nothing I can say to make you change your mind on how you feel about Overeem's striking skills.

Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?

1/28/13 5:44 PM
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D241
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1.I stand by my stance that Benson Henderson isn't the same type of wrestler as Gray Maynard is, and Anthony Pettis will have to show he's improved with his wrestling(since the Guida fight) by fighting him eventually. Pettis getting the next title shot is fine by me. Perhaps I underestimate how good Benson's wrestling is, however I don't feel he depends on it to win fights as much as  Gray does.

 

2.Overeem in mma may not have proven himself YET as far as en elite striker, so I will give in a little bit and say in terms of "mma accomplishments", the 3 you mentioned in the OP have a stronger argument in the realm of mma striking accomplishments.  On the flip side though, I think you aren't giving enough credit for Overeems striking accomplishments in striking only competition.

 

3.Even though I'll concede in the top tier striking argument that an argument can be made he isn't top tier when compared to Aldo/Pettis/Anderson, it is obvious to anyone with eyes that Werdum DID NOT WIN THAT FIGHT. I hope you can give in a little bit there as it won't take anything away from your arguments in this thread, and at least show that you know how to judge a fight correctly. I really hope you concede that Werdum didn't win that fight.

1/28/13 6:01 PM
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D241
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http://twitter.yfrog.com/jvtcbafemsthouztxjzseotwz

1/28/13 6:09 PM
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Wasa-B
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Infamous Ed - 
Billyz - Lyoto - easy to call
Aldo - he does some amazing things
Anderson - obvious and probably the best
Pettis - guy just keeps on amazing people
Call me crazy and hate to say it but.. Jones (think about it before you hate he dropped Lyoto in a good back and forth and Vitor barely ever touched him)

no particular order but Anderson would be top of the list regardless
I say wait on jones until he moves up to heavyweight. We'll see if his striking skill set, rather than his size, will hold up. Phone Post

Do we have to wait to see GSP's wrestling at MW too?

Aldo's striking at LW? Andy against elite LHWs?
1/28/13 6:17 PM
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Wasa-B
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One thing I would also add is that IMO to be an "elite tier striker," the first requirement is to be in the "elite tier of rankings" to start. IMO, that is around top 5. You can have excellent striking but still be only borderline top 10 and thus I would label that person a great striker but not elite overall fighter. So guys like Moussasi, Barboza, etc we know have great striking but have not yet racked up or worked their way up to the elite rankings with elite level wins.

This brings us to a guy like Chuck and how he was criticized for only being able to take out grapplers and that he hadnt faced any good strikers mostly. This is only partly true imo but its important to keep in mind that "elite striking" only holds water if you are able to execute it against "elite opposition" imo. Of course, make fights but we've seen someone like Moussasi or early Anderson have trouble getting taken down and taken out of their main element. Being able to execute striking against an elite grappler very much is a requirement imo to define "elite striking" in MMA.
1/28/13 6:19 PM
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Wasa-B
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I would also add that while Cung's physical prime is clearly past, he is still showing the ability to execute excellent striking at an older age and against bigger guys like a Franklin. I think its a safe bet that had Cung focused solely on MMA 10 years ago and where he would have likely fought as a WW, he would have been an "elite tier striker" too.
1/28/13 6:19 PM
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shiki31
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Andre winner Phone Post
1/28/13 8:00 PM
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wreckker
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Overeem is elite because he is a VERY EFFECTIVE POWERFUL STRIKER.

They changed rules in k-1 because o his knees

No other HW uses variety of strikes overeem does. Knees, kicks to body, boxing with good defense.

Hid power in all striking areas variety of technique makes him best striker at hw

He looked like shit against werdum

1 bad fight vs his last 10 Mma and kickboxing fights... Phone Post
1/28/13 8:09 PM
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Wasa-B
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Edited: 01/28/13 8:12 PM
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^ Sure...but we're talking about MMA only though. I have no problems myself calling Overeem an "elite striker in MMA" but.....looking at his MMA record only, can we say he is in the upper tier that belongs with Anderson, Aldo, Pettis, Machida?

Does he have a good group of top level wins in MMA?

His notable wins in MMA are:

Brock
Werdum
Rogers (borderline)
Hunt (borderline)

Kharitonov
Igor V
Vitor (x2)

Now, out of those, which are the ones he won via standup striking? Only Brock and Werdum and we can all agree he (and Werdum) both looked shitty in that one and it wasnt really a solid win so it doesnt reall leave him with much at this point. For the Kharitonov win, believe Sergei got injured in that fight or fell the ground and didnt really defend himself while there (iirc?)

So I'd say we all know he is a top tier striker but I think its its also clear that he does not yet have the wins over elite opposition and with his striking. And, at to the fact that Brock was coming off surgery. Still a legit win but you can see how putting him into this distinction at this point is still highly questionable.
1/28/13 8:20 PM
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orcus
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"Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?"

To change my mind that Overeem is on the level of the guys in the OP, all Overeem has to do is display their level of brilliance in the cage. 

"1 bad fight vs his last 10 Mma and kickboxing fights.."

If you look at his last 10 MMA fights you see him taking a lot of guys down and fighting them there rather than standing. In fact you've basically got Duffee, Fujita, and Brock, all three guys that Overeem brute forced rather than displayed technical brilliance against.

Honestly even if you look at his K-1 fights, do you see brilliance? Or do you see a roided up monster powering through guys for the most part? I've only seen a few of them (including a couple losses).

The thread is really about that kind of brilliance, not just getting lots of KOs. Like I would not have put a prime Wand in the conversation, for example, despite his inarguable effectiveness.

1/28/13 8:25 PM
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Wasa-B
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"Brilliance" is subjective but based on who he's beaten and how he's beaten them, i think its safe to say he does not have a really significant list of top 10 wins and via his striking.

Personally, seeing him bully a bully like Brock was fun...and wanted it to happen...however I do fully realize Brock was not the same guy at that point. You could tell by his aura. Rickson also confirmed it.
1/28/13 8:26 PM
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Wasa-B
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Oh, btw, I would put JDS in the elite tier of strikers in MMA. He's consistently beaten top guys via striking so.....I think JDS is a legit case of saying "1 bad fight doesnt erase the rest of his accomplishments."

We have to remember the HWs arent gonna dazzle with technique and stuff like the Andy's and Pettis.'
1/28/13 8:28 PM
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liquidrob
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Mousasi after Gust

I'm a big Overeem guy, but don't have huge issues leaving him off the list, his striking in K1 has been much better than in MMA recently, in MMA he actually likes to clinch and TD guys who can strike, he is very complete that way

It is funny though how much guys put stock in 1 fight, if this was a month ago everyone here would have JDS on the list

I think Daley could have been one of these guys, but he fell in love with his left hook, in his old fights he used kicks and knees beautifuly, had a complete striking game, KJ Noobs also stopped kicking and kneeing after his boxing stint
1/28/13 8:31 PM
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D241
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orcus likes to use unique angles, and this is one of those times. The angle he's using though, his Op is accurate and the stipulations of "mma only" prevent Overeem(at this time) for being conisdered top tier.

 

It's funny though how orcus shits on Overeem and attributes his K1 success to being a roided up powerhouse. This coming from the same guy who was all up on Brocks nuts and thinks/thought Brock would beat Fedor.

 

Why? b/c of his superior technique and mma experience? It was his size and athletisism that helped get him as far as it did.

 

But back to the topic, Overeem and Nick Diaz may be elite strikers in mma, however until they are champions with a few wins as champion, they don't, on paper have the accomplishments/credentials to match the other 3.

1/28/13 8:32 PM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 8:33 PM
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But still lol @ Werdum getting robbed in his fight against Overeem and should've won. I watched that fight yesterday via the links on this thread and it justifies you are either incredibly hard headed and cannot admit when you are wrong, or you have a hard time grasping fighting.

1/28/13 8:38 PM
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liquidrob
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That Werdum fight was awful, but Overeem won pretty easily, they could have scored 30 TDs for him when Werdum would flop every time he touched or clinched him, even knock downs when Overeem would touch him with a knee and he would fall over
1/28/13 8:57 PM
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D241
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liquidrob - That Werdum fight was awful, but Overeem won pretty easily, they could have scored 30 TDs for him when Werdum would flop every time he touched or clinched him, even knock downs when Overeem would touch him with a knee and he would fall over

There were several times Overeem dropped Werdum.

 

The biggest problem though, is it's hard to determine how many of those drops were unavoidable, and how many were Werdum trying to pursuay Overeem to follow him to the ground by willingly going down, or by not trying to stay on the feet.

 

It's horrible to use one (obviously bad) fight to analyze a fighter, but some people do it to fit their agenda. What I will say from WATCHING the fight a 2nd time, is there were some heavy shots landed that Werdum took pretty well. Werdum definitely has toughness.

 

But I paid for tickets to that event and was hoodwinked. Bought tickets when Gina Carrano was supposed to fight, that didn't happen nor did the paying fans get a substitute fight. Main event totally sucked, and I blame Werdum for that. That was very dishonorable butt flopping like that and pleaing to your opponent to "please come into my guard, you're too good on the feet".

1/28/13 9:05 PM
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orcus
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"orcus likes to use unique angles, and this is one of those times. The angle he's using though, his Op is accurate and the stipulations of "mma only" prevent Overeem(at this time) for being conisdered top tier."

The "angle" is that I created this thread to discuss a particular kind of fighter, the kind that is an artist whose brilliance is a pleasure to watch. Chris Leben could be 200-0 and I still wouldn't put him in that class.

"Why? b/c of his superior technique and mma experience? It was his size and athletisism that helped get him as far as it did."

So? Did you see me talking about what a technical artist Brock was in the ring? Nope.

"It's horrible to use one (obviously bad) fight to analyze a fighter, but some people do it to fit their agenda."

I keep asking you to point me to some of the apparent multitude of fights where Overeem DOES show the brilliance of the guys in the OP, yet you seem to be bafflingly unable to do so, all while still continuing to complain about his omission. In fact have you mentioned a single fight?

"I blame Werdum for that. That was very dishonorable butt flopping like that and pleaing to your opponent to "please come into my guard, you're too good on the feet"."

Overeem didn't seem to want to engage when Werdum initiated striking exchanges either (as shown in the gifs), so why do you blame Werdum?

1/28/13 9:13 PM
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ThatKickDidntHuroooohhhhhhhh
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Edited: 01/28/13 9:34 PM
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yabadaba - 

From another thread:

Jack Slack

mma shill -  First let me say, I love your articles and I hope you keep them coming. Since reading your articles, I've realized that I don't have a very good understanding of striking at all in mma. I thought the Diaz bros and BJ Penn were some of the best strikers in mma until you pointed out many of their flaws. Now it seems like every mma fighter is a bad striker that doesn't even understand the basics. I'm wondering who you think are the top five best strikers in mma and why?

I'm always reluctant to name the top strikers in MMA because everyone makes mistakes and errors. That's not just in MMA but in the highest levels of professional boxing and bjj. Nobody achieves perfection.

It's impossible to stay disciplined all the time, the greats are the ones who can stay discplined the longest. I consider Manny Pacquiao one of the most technically disciplined boxers of all time - in, moves his head, exits on an angle. But just the other day Marquez was able to catch him getting wild.

In truth there is a great deal of underemphasis on angling, handfighting and the actual science of striking in a lot of top level camps even in boxing and kickboxing. Fighting tends to be approached in a combinations and cover up way, with an emphasis on power and conditioning rather than science.

 

I suppose the criteria for best MMA striker from a scientific standpoint would be based in discipline and versatility. Guys who can adapt their style against anyone: like AS, GSP, Fedor when he was fighting. There's very few guys who can adapt their striking style to the opponent.

The next tier down would be guys who have a pretty samey striking game in every fight but still execute it flawlessly - like JDS, Aldo etc.

Then there's the guys who do the same thing in every fight but have had their flaws exposed already but can beat MOST guys with their A game like Belfort, Penn the Diaz brothers.

 

I agree with almost everything you said, but you really think Pac is one of the most technical boxers of all time?

Granted, he has shored up a lot of his defensive flaws since working with Freddy, but he's still mainly an offensive fighter with little defense to speak of.  As far as being an offensive boxer-puncher, he may be the most technical, but I think there are many boxers right now that are more technical in their overall boxing than Manny.

Pacquiao gets clipped often by any decent counter-striker (Marquez, Morales) as he tends to look for the left hand too much and then sit on it when he lands it (ala Marquez KO loss).

Edit - fuck, did not realize until now it's from another thread.  Maybe Slack will see it anyways.

1/28/13 9:20 PM
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D241
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Edited: 01/28/13 9:21 PM
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orcus - 

"I blame Werdum for that. That was very dishonorable butt flopping like that and pleaing to your opponent to "please come into my guard, you're too good on the feet"."

Overeem didn't seem to want to engage when Werdum initiated striking exchanges either (as shown in the gifs), so why do you blame Werdum?

BECAUSE I WATCHED THE FIGHT-Not just 4 gifs of it. Something you really should do if you plan on proudly stating that you think Werdum won the fight.

 

You're doing a disservice to yourself, and any credability you may still have on the UG by talking about it.

And I've already conceded about how to fit Overeem into this thread he needs more examples/accomplishments, which is why I didn't provide them.

I just think it's LAUGHABLE that you keep harping on one obviously bad fight. Add the fact that you are saying that it is in the opinion of orcus that Werdum won that fight, you're only making a fool of yourself. You don't have to concede anything on Alistair by saying he won a horrible looking fight, but as I and others have called you out numerous times in the past on these boards, YOU CANNOT ADMIT when you are wrong. 

 

Werdum won vs Overeem in Strikeforce-orcus

 

That's right, you're really saying that. You're either trying to troll me, or you're making yourself look incredibly stupid by breaking down a 15 minute fight by 1 minute of the fight and using gifs of that 1 minute.

 

orcus, on the next UFC, how are you going to determine the main event? By watching highlight gifs and going to fightmetrix, or will you ACTUALLY WATCH THE FIGHT?

 

Look at how stubborn you are. You have NOTHING to lose by admitting that Overeem beat Werdum. I've already stated that the conditions of this thread, AO isn't there yet. So why are you still trying to say that Werdum won?  IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE THAT STUBBORN OR IGNORNAT. Which one?

1/28/13 9:25 PM
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D241
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I took something away from you in our debate on Pettis vs wrestlers. I would think you make post to do just that.

 

But now you go and start acting like the orcus that everyone hates, and I hate it too. You're better than this.

You really mean to tell me you really think you make a strong argument for a fight by posting 4 gifs of it and resorting to fightmetric? 

 

I mean if that's really how you feel, then I would like some info from you. Please tell me how 4 gifs of a fight is enough to justify how you view who should've won. I'm saying, watch the fight. I provided links to it, it's right there.

But you keep harping on 4 gifs. Why should your argument be strong based on 4 gifs over footage of the actual fight?

1/28/13 9:50 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 01/28/13 9:51 PM
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"Something you really should do if you plan on proudly stating that you think Werdum won the fight."/span>

Wow, are you drunk again or something? "Proudly stating"? What I actually said is that I saw the fight once, live, and if I remember right, I thought Werdum won but that Alistair would certainly get the decision. I also said I thought a draw would be fine although imo both guys lost. 

You're being a bit of a bitch (as usual) by acting like I'm trumpeting from the rooftops that Werdum kicked Alistair's ass. You have two posts in a row whining about it, to go with the other million you've made in this thread about it. Get over it.

 

 

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