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UnderGround Forums >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?


1/28/13 10:06 PM
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D241
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Anything but watching the fight huh.

 

Your resorting to anything other than watching the fight says enough. It's got to suck to be you.

1/28/13 10:22 PM
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ThatKickDidntHuroooohhhhhhhh
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While I think Overeem won the fight, it was by no means dominant.  Also, I don't think Werdum got dropped legitimately.  I'm 90% sure he was faking being hurt (ala Fedor fight) so he could lure Overeem into his guard.

1/28/13 10:22 PM
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orcus
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Yeah --  you see, I've seen the fight; and since I neither enjoyed it, nor care two fucks about who "should" have won, and since those (professionally tallied by guys watching the tape, often in slow-mo or frame-by-frame) stats confirm my foggy memory of the fight in any case, I have exactly zero interest in seeing it again.

It's actually pretty great to be me. 

1/28/13 10:26 PM
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D241
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You're very sore when someone proves you wrong. It's not a good personality trait.

1/28/13 10:29 PM
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orcus
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Sorry, what did you prove me wrong about?

1/28/13 10:33 PM
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D241
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Exactly.

1/29/13 12:52 AM
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the BOSS 041ZAR
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Shroom - Jake Shields

Demian Maia

Brock Lesnar


voted up

1/29/13 3:30 AM
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anpack20
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HenryO - LOL that is just terrible from Bader, running straight at MAchida was really going to work
What's funny is he dropped Vladimir with that punch on Saturday...the leaping punch is one of his things...Machida was just able to capitalize on it. I believe Tito cracked him because of it as well(if I remember correctly). Phone Post
1/29/13 3:41 AM
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hagisan
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No love for Bang? Phone Post
1/29/13 6:29 AM
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KickYoNuts
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Spong? Overeem? Mousasi? Hunt?

1/29/13 7:01 AM
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Proteus The Invincible
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orcus - 

"Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?"

To change my mind that Overeem is on the level of the guys in the OP, all Overeem has to do is display their level of brilliance in the cage. 

"1 bad fight vs his last 10 Mma and kickboxing fights.."

If you look at his last 10 MMA fights you see him taking a lot of guys down and fighting them there rather than standing. In fact you've basically got Duffee, Fujita, and Brock, all three guys that Overeem brute forced rather than displayed technical brilliance against.

Honestly even if you look at his K-1 fights, do you see brilliance? Or do you see a roided up monster powering through guys for the most part? I've only seen a few of them (including a couple losses).

The thread is really about that kind of brilliance, not just getting lots of KOs. Like I would not have put a prime Wand in the conversation, for example, despite his inarguable effectiveness.


Don't pretend that it doesn't take a very large amount of skill to apply brute force and power in order to beat guys like Brock, Spong, Teixeira and Duffee. If you do believe that it requires little skill, then you must also believe that Mariusz Pudzianowski would have the same success that Overeem did against those four men, or at least close to it.
1/29/13 7:31 AM
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Gooner H Smith
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Wasa-B -

This one sequence doesnt do it justice because Machida set up this punch from the beginning of the fight with is "elusiveness" and Bader got impatient and Machida completely capitalized:

 

It's like running into a wood chipper. Phone Post
1/31/13 12:49 AM
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Wasa-B
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Proteus The Invincible - 
orcus - 

"Is there anything Overeem can do to change your mind since he hasn't done anything in your eyes thus far?"

To change my mind that Overeem is on the level of the guys in the OP, all Overeem has to do is display their level of brilliance in the cage. 

"1 bad fight vs his last 10 Mma and kickboxing fights.."

If you look at his last 10 MMA fights you see him taking a lot of guys down and fighting them there rather than standing. In fact you've basically got Duffee, Fujita, and Brock, all three guys that Overeem brute forced rather than displayed technical brilliance against.

Honestly even if you look at his K-1 fights, do you see brilliance? Or do you see a roided up monster powering through guys for the most part? I've only seen a few of them (including a couple losses).

The thread is really about that kind of brilliance, not just getting lots of KOs. Like I would not have put a prime Wand in the conversation, for example, despite his inarguable effectiveness.


Don't pretend that it doesn't take a very large amount of skill to apply brute force and power in order to beat guys like Brock, Spong, Teixeira and Duffee. If you do believe that it requires little skill, then you must also believe that Mariusz Pudzianowski would have the same success that Overeem did against those four men, or at least close to it.

That's a bit of a stretch to make your case.

Reem is obviously no bum but not exactly a smooth technician. There is nothing wrong with using brute force, the #1 thing is to get the job done by any means necessary but i would agree with Orcus in that Reem doesnt really show the kind of "brilliance" that Andy, Aldo, Pettis, Machida do. Of course, its harder to do that like those others when you weight 260lbs.

I still think Reem needs a couple more wins via striking vs top 10 guys before he is considered an proven elite striker in MMA.
1/31/13 12:50 AM
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Wasa-B
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Spong and Teixeira were not in MMA. Duffee was neve top 10. Brock was a legit win though even as a Brock hater I had to admit he wasnt the same Brock then.
1/31/13 12:51 AM
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Wasa-B
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Spong is also a small HW that should probably be fighting and could prob make LHW.
1/31/13 1:00 AM
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ThatKickDidntHuroooohhhhhhhh
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Wasa-B - Spong is also a small HW that should probably be fighting and could prob make LHW.

I believe he made his MMA debut at LHW a couple months ago

1/31/13 1:57 AM
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Wasa-B
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yeah, saw the fight, couldnt remember what weight it was at but he's def not a legit HW.
1/31/13 2:13 AM
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orcus
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"Reem is obviously no bum but not exactly a smooth technician. There is nothing wrong with using brute force, the #1 thing is to get the job done by any means necessary but i would agree with Orcus in that Reem doesnt really show the kind of "brilliance" that Andy, Aldo, Pettis, Machida do. Of course, its harder to do that like those others when you weight 260lbs."

Yeah, maybe my OP was not clear. I'm not talking about "most effective strikers" or "guys who KO everybody", I'm talking about artists.

1/31/13 2:33 AM
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Wasa-B
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If we're talking about artists, then I think Machida/Bader shows a painting from first stroke to punctuation mark. A big part of that art is making guys impatient and make mistakes. That was such an example of that.

What about the Fedor KO of AA, Orcus? If we're talking HWs and brilliant striking. Not sure if that was art but that was def something else the way it went down.

The way Gomi clobbered Azeredo's head twice with both hands to the KO was pretty cool.

The way Igor made Bueno drop was also pretty.

Oh, I know....
1/31/13 2:34 AM
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Wasa-B
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.
1/31/13 4:24 AM
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TheRaider
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DamnSevern -
Wasa-B - 

This one sequence doesnt do it justice because Machida set up this punch from the beginning of the fight with is "elusiveness" and Bader got impatient and Machida completely capitalized:

 


one of the most underrated ko's of all time

My first live event. Crowd went nuts. Phone Post
1/31/13 6:53 AM
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LEMon
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I like Pettis a lot but you think he's already top? He's good but elite? The world of striking is a big place with lots of money thrown around makes MMA look like a joke.

The problem is that elite strikers come to MMA once they can't earn money in MT/Boxing/K-1. By that time they are slower, a bit more punchy and usually outmatched by younger faster stronger guys.

Arlovski was pretty close to being elite when he fought fedor ...he looked damn good and was showing the MMA striking vs a real boxer until....

Manhoef is pretty badass but he's been ko in Japan by short punches from swinging too much.

Overseen is top tier but mainly due to his mass and power...big difference since his lighter days.

Why do people forget Yves Edwards? Or the Diaz brothers? Phone Post
1/31/13 6:54 AM
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LEMon
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Oh and machida is ridiculously underated Phone Post
1/31/13 11:41 AM
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Wasa-B
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LEMon -  I like Pettis a lot but you think he's already top? He's good but elite? The world of striking is a big place with lots of money thrown around makes MMA look like a joke.

The problem is that elite strikers come to MMA once they can't earn money in MT/Boxing/K-1. By that time they are slower, a bit more punchy and usually outmatched by younger faster stronger guys.

Arlovski was pretty close to being elite when he fought fedor ...he looked damn good and was showing the MMA striking vs a real boxer until....

Manhoef is pretty badass but he's been ko in Japan by short punches from swinging too much.

Overseen is top tier but mainly due to his mass and power...big difference since his lighter days.

Why do people forget Yves Edwards? Or the Diaz brothers? Phone Post

If the Diaz or Edwards are top, Pettis most certainly is. Edwards def was one of the top strikers for his day, would have liked to have seen him vs Gomi, Sakurai in Pride.

I would say the Diaz bros are def up there too and also Condit but in terms of this brilliance thing? I do think Nick's had so many wars and always comes back from getting dropped that he's pretty dam awesome. However, other than Condit, he hasnt really faced any elite guys for a while. Well, there was BJ but he was just too small.
1/31/13 11:42 AM
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Wasa-B
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LEMon -  Oh and machida is ridiculously underated Phone Post

Really? I think he gets his deserved props and has for a while.

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