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UnderGround Forums >> Elite tier of strikers in MMA?


1/31/13 11:41 AM
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Wasa-B
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LEMon -  I like Pettis a lot but you think he's already top? He's good but elite? The world of striking is a big place with lots of money thrown around makes MMA look like a joke.

The problem is that elite strikers come to MMA once they can't earn money in MT/Boxing/K-1. By that time they are slower, a bit more punchy and usually outmatched by younger faster stronger guys.

Arlovski was pretty close to being elite when he fought fedor ...he looked damn good and was showing the MMA striking vs a real boxer until....

Manhoef is pretty badass but he's been ko in Japan by short punches from swinging too much.

Overseen is top tier but mainly due to his mass and power...big difference since his lighter days.

Why do people forget Yves Edwards? Or the Diaz brothers? Phone Post

If the Diaz or Edwards are top, Pettis most certainly is. Edwards def was one of the top strikers for his day, would have liked to have seen him vs Gomi, Sakurai in Pride.

I would say the Diaz bros are def up there too and also Condit but in terms of this brilliance thing? I do think Nick's had so many wars and always comes back from getting dropped that he's pretty dam awesome. However, other than Condit, he hasnt really faced any elite guys for a while. Well, there was BJ but he was just too small.
1/31/13 11:42 AM
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Wasa-B
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LEMon -  Oh and machida is ridiculously underated Phone Post

Really? I think he gets his deserved props and has for a while.
1/31/13 4:24 PM
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LEMon
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Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post
2/1/13 1:52 PM
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Wasa-B
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Funny, there's a thread about top subgrapplers in MMA and as usu, people cannot separate a fighter's pure credentials from MMA accomplishments. Roger Gracie is one of the very best BJJ guys in the world. In MMA, his wins are still thin and has not yet beaten a top 10 guy but yet he's still the best sub guy in MMA?
2/1/13 2:01 PM
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Duke Roufus
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LEMon -  Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post

2009 Anthony was offered a K1 Max contract. We passed on it to get a WEC Contract.

Anthony could be a high level Muay Thai/Kickboxer if he choose to be one.. MMA is his home now.
2/1/13 2:04 PM
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ThinkMMA
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Duke Roufus -
LEMon -  Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post

2009 Anthony was offered a K1 Max contract. We passed on it to get a WEC Contract.

Anthony could be a high level Muay Thai/Kickboxer if he choose to be one.. MMA is his home now.
Boom Phone Post
2/1/13 2:28 PM
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wreckker
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anthony is good because he already has his own style of striking that opponets have a hard time training for.

Taekwondo for creativity speed And agilty

Muay thai for power And use of 8 limbs

He can fight from both stances too

He has many weapons And tricks outside traditional standup fighter.

Good luck opponets finding a sparring partner to replicate pettis Phone Post
2/1/13 2:43 PM
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D241
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This was a solid thread orcus. Sorry our past beefs got you riled up. A little antagonizing on my part. All in all though, good thread, I'll vote it up.

2/1/13 2:50 PM
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Wasa-B
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Billy Joe Rottoncrotch - 
LEMon -  Oh and machida is ridiculously underated Phone Post

I disagree.

Machida reminds me a little of Chuck Liddell back in his prime.

He has feasted on grappler/wrestler types with mediocre standup abilities.

How many elite strikers has Lyoto actually fought in the UFC?

We saw what happened against Shogun.

Don't get me wrong, Lyoto is very very good.

But let's not get carried away.

Feasting on those grappler/wrestlers still takes skill and is not to be underated either. Of course, beating other strikers matters too but we've seen so many strikers taken out of their games by these same grappler/wrestlers as well.

As for strikers, Machida has faced Shogun, Jones, Rashad, Rampage, Thiago Silva. I thought the first Shogun fight was more even than people give him credit for. He lost to Rampage via not doing anything in the first 2 rounds and then had the only real moments of the fight in R3. Thiago isnt a great striker but good. Rashad cant just be considred a grappler/wrestler, his boxing is very good. Big test in Hendo of course.

I agree that he is not underated though and that he gets proper due. His more technical than Chuck but in the end, its all about effectivness which Chuck was.
2/1/13 2:52 PM
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Wasa-B
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Duke Roufus - 
LEMon -  Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post

2009 Anthony was offered a K1 Max contract. We passed on it to get a WEC Contract.

Anthony could be a high level Muay Thai/Kickboxer if he choose to be one.. MMA is his home now.

Interesting.

Guess, just like any career decision, you have to have some foresight as well - good call.
2/1/13 2:53 PM
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Wasa-B
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D241 - 

This was a solid thread orcus. Sorry our past beefs got you riled up. A little antagonizing on my part. All in all though, good thread, I'll vote it up.


At least there is legit dicussion and short on the TMZ shit.
2/1/13 3:56 PM
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NorthFromHere
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LEMon -  Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post

Nick Diaz got owned on the feet by 155er in Noons and outstruck by Condit. How does that make him "elite striker" even in MMA only?
2/1/13 4:05 PM
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LEMon
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Didn't read the part where I said "nick wouldn't be an elite level striker" lol?

Duke thanks for that clarification ! I hope it didn't come across as disrespectful, was just offering my opinion. Pettis is a bad man lol.

Machida fought Sam Greco and Michael McDonald ! Machida got caught against shogun it was pretty unlucky, he's not the first. No excuses though I just think people don't realise how brilliant some of his timing is, on the level of a Floyd mayweather talent. They see the karate and the sharp timing but if you slow the video down that guy is doing stuff No One is doing. Phone Post
2/1/13 4:23 PM
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Wasa-B
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Billy Joe Rottoncrotch - "As for strikers, Machida has faced Shogun, Jones, Rashad, Rampage, Thiago Silva. I thought the first Shogun fight was more even than people give him credit for. He lost to Rampage via not doing anything in the first 2 rounds and then had the only real moments of the fight in R3. Thiago isnt a great striker but good. Rashad cant just be considred a grappler/wrestler, his boxing is very good. Big test in Hendo of course."



Yes some good points.

But none of the fighters you mentioned are what I would call elite technical standup fighters. Rampage has big power and has improved his boxing skills over the years, but he's still basically a glorified brawler. And whether you think he deserved the decision or not, that fight was still prett even on the feet.

Rashad has developed some pretty good boxing skills, but wrestling will always be the best part of his game.

Jon Jones is a wrestler who hasn't even been fighting for very long and he still ended up getting the upper hand with the standup before choking Lyoto out. Yes he's got good kickboxing now, but he's not what I would call elite.

Personally, I think the top mma strikers are guys who probably could've competed in K-1 if they'd wanted to. Maybe not win the Grand Prix, but still be competitive.

I don't know that Lyoto is one of those guys.

How many elite technical strikers at LHW (or in the sport at large) are there really though? Yes, agreed, Rampage became one dimensional (though was quite technical at the point in the sport during the Pride height, he regressed a bit into the hook hunter).

The wrestling threat for Rashad and Jones is absolutely part of their "standup" threat and is also something that a striker like Machida has to dually watch out for - which he is a master at.

Nog was one of the best MMA BJJ/grapplers for a while but never had any elite BJJ accomplishments. Ditto Aoki. I dont think Lyoto having K1 success necessarily dictates his elite level of striking in MMA as his game could be more suited to MMA than K1 esp when taking into account the range in MMA - which is what makes him so good at tdd as well.

Good points on your end too though - this is a grey topic and some good dicussion on it.
2/1/13 4:26 PM
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Wasa-B
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NorthFromHere - 
LEMon -  Wasa-b agree with everything you said! I don't know if I communicated it wrong but I never suggested Diaz elite level strikers just that in MMA they would be considered. For a while Nick looked pretty unstoppable vs frank etc.

Pettis is fantastic but again he wouldn't be a Muay Thai world champ or a boxing national champ if you know what I mean. I love watching him though! Phone Post

Nick Diaz got owned on the feet by 155er in Noons and outstruck by Condit. How does that make him "elite striker" even in MMA only?

Didnt Diaz beat Noons in the rematch? And I had no problems with Condit getting the nod vs Nick but lets not act as if there was a domination there (if you recall, there was a tad of controversy in that decision) and Condit is def one of the better strikers in this sport as well as is Noons.

I dont think Diaz is the best striker in the sport, Anderson is but Diaz is def one of the better ones. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing someone like Condit finally giving Diaz trouble due to strategy though, Diaz is quite one dimensional.
2/1/13 4:30 PM
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Wasa-B
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Billy Joe Rottoncrotch - "Machida fought Sam Greco and Michael McDonald!"


Didn't he take Michael McDonald down and submit him in two minutes? Doesn't say very much about his standup.

Don't know anything about Sam Greco or how that fight went down.


"Machida got caught against shogun it was pretty unlucky, he's not the first.


I though Shogun thoroughly out struck him in the first fight. If that's how Lyoto deals with leg kicks from a standup fighter of Shogun's caliber, imagine what he would be subjected to in K-1.


I think he submitted them both. I think the Greco fight was an early sign of how Machida's lead leg and stance could be kicked on the inside but not even Shogun really exploited that in MMA (it was more kicks to the body iirc).

I was a bit suprised Machida won the first one but that was also because no one had been able to touch Machida up to that point and because how Shogun wasnt looking that great up to then. Again, i think that fight was more even than Machida gets credit for - not saying he won necessarily but i didnt see Shogun dominate either.

What's weird is that Shogun got sloppier after Machida when he was possibly at his most technical then. It could be a thing but Shogun lost to Hendo (though it shoulda been a draw), i think Machida will do a lot better (on paper anyhow).
2/1/13 7:25 PM
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Wasa-B
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It was made for and i think caught on from the WCC when they had a different bracket for the grapplers and then the guys who hit each other - aka the strikers.

It is a made term for how we use it in MMA though imo its the equivalent of grappling. Boxing would be like the equivlaent of wrestling. I mean, striking is boxing, wrestling is grappling but boxing only refers to the hands. Kickboxing is also a made up term ive learned and made up by a promoter in Japan when he started full contact karate shows.

"For some reason, the LHW division in the UFC has never been very deep as far as top notch standup fighters."

Dont think its different than any other division.
2/1/13 8:53 PM
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orcus
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Because sometimes you might be referring to a guy who throws no kicks or knees, like JDS. We call them all strikers because we're referring to their standup fighting, whether it uses some/all/none of hands, feet, elbows, knees.

2/1/13 10:05 PM
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LEMon
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Wow shogun much? Lol

Don't get me wrong I like shogun a lot but ... Phone Post
2/1/13 10:10 PM
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orcus
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It's thiaguy, that's his thing.

2/1/13 10:13 PM
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liquidrob
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What do you guys think about Alexander Shlemenko?
2/2/13 12:31 AM
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Wasa-B
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goddammit you psycho
2/2/13 9:14 AM
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liquidrob
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liquidrob - What do you guys think about Alexander Shlemenko?

2/2/13 1:50 PM
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Wasa-B
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2/2/13 3:08 PM
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D241
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"Why do you think Overeem was awarded as the unanimous winner in his fight with Werdum?"

Beats me.  It's hilarious that you're implying that Overeem must have done something right because the judges -- MMA's infamous judges -- gave him the win.

Fightmetric in fact has Werdum winning under both the 10-point must system AND their own system, and -- unsurprisingly -- also landing more strikes (both significant and otherwise) than Overeem: http://blog.fightmetric.com/2011/06/overeem-vs-werdum-ii-official.html . What do you make of that?

 

 

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&quote=43131297&forum=1&thread=2126614&page=1#bottom

 


 
orcus - 

Many, including me, think he won the second fight with Benson.

 
I would say that basing who won a fight on fightmetric.com is stupid and unreliable.  In 2 fights, your main argument is that fightmetric scored it for Werdum, therefor if fightmetric is a reliable base for scoring a system, that would be what you base your opinion on.
 
However, in the 2nd example, you have Frankie Edgar winning against Benson, while Fightmetric disagrees with that.
 
Why don't you be consistent orcus? If you're going to say fightmetric scored the fight for Werdum, and they're accurate, than why not use fightmetric's scores for Edgar/Benson 2 and say that Edgar DID NOT beat Benson?
 
 
I know, it's because you're a hypocrit and inconsistent.

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