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BJJGround Forum >> Keenan vs Miyao was a Bjj abomination


1/28/13 3:40 PM
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elburrogrande
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Furacao - Definite split occurring between old school BJJ'rs vs new school...

Having started BJJ in the 90's with the intent of joining a real fighting art and adding it to my kickboxing and wrestling background, I cannot see the attraction with the "new BJJ sport game".

Does someone really join BJJ nowadays with this being the top of ones "game" and still consider themselves involved in a fighting art?

Of note, I do teach my students berimobolos but with the sole intent of smashing this BS. One did it very well while medaling at Worlds this year smashing several new style berimobolos "playas" winning from the top position.

I disagree completely. Watch Marcin Held vs Rich Clementi. Marcin proves that the 50/50, tornado guard, and inverted guard could all be used very effectively against a trained opponent in MMA. And Marcin Held is not even an elite grappler.
1/28/13 3:43 PM
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elburrogrande
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Also would like to add that daniel sarafian used the deep half very effectively recently against CB dollaway. A technique most instructors still say will get you killed in a combat scenario.
1/28/13 3:47 PM
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onyx2002
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This may not be the most popular opinion but I believe this is developing this way BECAUSE of the love of BJJ. People are coming into it for many different reasons but are staying solely to practice bjj/grappling.

At 29 when I started I thought that I would start training and then work on other parts of MMA and eventually fight. Early on I realized I loved grappling and I didn't like getting punched. So I train and I train and I train. Not to fight but to train. As such everything is of interest to some degree. I've tried spiral, 50/50, deep half, closed guard, rubber guard, standard half guard, z guard. I've focused on leg locks, neck only chokes, head and arm chokes, armbars, triangles, shoulder and wrist locks. I've spent time on lots of things because they stimulate my mind and my body. I plan on training for a very long time and I have no desire to only drill moves that are street certified. Yes that might be closer to what Helio wanted but for me this is fun and fun is why I come to class.

I'm not particularly good at anything primarily berimbolo related but mostly because I train more no gi than gi, but all these people that look down on the berimbolo, I would submit that if you took your best smasher of the berimbolo and put them up against Rafa or Gui Mendes that is would not go well. Even if you created a rule set that outlawed the berimbolo Rafa would eat their lunch.
1/28/13 3:49 PM
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onyx2002
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elburrogrande - Also would like to add that daniel sarafian used the deep half very effectively recently against CB dollaway. A technique most instructors still say will get you killed in a combat scenario.

Also Jeff Monson uses deep half almost exclusively in MMA now and I have yet to see him take significant damage from that spot.
1/28/13 4:00 PM
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Rival School
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WhoRunsBarterTown - Lets see how well that strategy works in a real fight.
Well being some normal geek off the street I'm sure I'm more than likely better at takedown versus takedown defense.

The point is if someone is a wrestler or a judo guy why would I play that game? Knowing I'll lose that game. Also bad position and down on points. Not have an ego tells me when to wrestle or pull. No shame for me Phone Post
1/28/13 4:16 PM
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BigEyedFish
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Furacao - Definite split occurring between old school BJJ'rs vs new school...

Having started BJJ in the 90's with the intent of joining a real fighting art and adding it to my kickboxing and wrestling background, I cannot see the attraction with the "new BJJ sport game".

Does someone really join BJJ nowadays with this being the top of ones "game" and still consider themselves involved in a fighting art?

Of note, I do teach my students berimobolos but with the sole intent of smashing this BS. One did it very well while medaling at Worlds this year smashing several new style berimobolos "playas" winning from the top position.

VOTED UP! Couldnt agree more
1/28/13 4:28 PM
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slick_mcfavorite
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I don't think most people are questioning the effectiveness of specific guard types, its the very specific position of two people on their butts foot pummeling which is being looked down upon. The fact that to win at some top level tournaments involves training a position which is a total waste of time in almost every way and only makes any sense in a specific rule set sucks.

That was the part about bjj I liked best when I started. Unlike wrestling or judo it never coerced you to act a certain way that wouldn't otherwise make sense in a fight due to the rules. Someone mentioned earlier it might have something to do with the fact that a lot of people getting into bjj now are doing it without fighting being something they are intersted in doing in the future.

May or may not be the case but its the only reason I can think of someone not minding putting work into such a silly position. Phone Post
1/28/13 5:08 PM
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elburrogrande
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I see what youre saying but I still think its only a silly position to those that don't understand it. And it only looks silly to them when Miyao goes against someone who also knows what they are doing. Watch Miyao's other matches. most dont last very long. Nobody complains then nor do they call the position a total waste of time.

Having said that, I think you would change your mind if you trained with the Miyao's. They are actually extremely well rounded.
1/28/13 5:17 PM
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ChokeTheFace
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-n931O-74#t=09m38s

Pay attench to Keenan.
1/28/13 5:18 PM
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FlyingKnee_bar
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John Frankl - Just watched Miyao vs. Grippo. Could barely stay awake.

QFT...


this is awful, this has to be changed the berimbolo is garbage...they need to award takedown points to the guy that end up on top in the event of a guard pull and that would solve everything
1/28/13 5:31 PM
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shark tank
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The terere v. claudio was a pretty entertaining match until the reaping violation. they call this interesting and entertaining match because of a rule violation but let two guys tickle each other's feet for 10 minutes. something is wrong in this organization.
1/28/13 5:34 PM
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xxxxxxxx
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=onQ7LDgNxYk

Not sure if this has been posted already on this thread but here's the link to the final.
1/28/13 5:50 PM
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Matthieu Battle
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i'd rather watch a double gward match than one of the standup 'battles' you see where guys just circle and slap at each other for 75% of the match, maybe winning an advantage for an almost takedown out of bounds.

zzzzzzzzz...
1/28/13 5:54 PM
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Werewolf1085
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Hate to break to a lot of you guys, but deep half has been around for a very long time, it just was not as refined as it is now and it is not a stalling position, it is a big time sweep attacking position atleast in competition bjj. Bermibolo's have been around for a while as well along with those spinning guards, but back then, there was 1 guy who would try to pass and then there was another guy who would try to sweep and he was forced to develop berimbolo type movements to generate sweeps. It seems that now because these guys got so good at berimbolos that they both pull guard looking to gain a dominant position, which makes it really boring when both guys are looking for that one berimbolo to secure a back mount.

Top pressure still reigns supreme. I know Buchecha beat Rodolfo, but he did it with takedowns and Buchecha is has a flexible guard and does crazy stuff off his back is a predominant guard player. But if you look at Rodolfo's run in the absolute the year before, he passed everyones guard and tapped them (including Buchecha). Buchecha won on takedowns in both absolue and his division.
1/28/13 6:02 PM
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shen
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What is now happening in BJJ is what has always happened with "martial arts" that have become "sports". People start "gaming the rules" and start utilizing strategies & techniques which are far outside the reality of actual fighting.

When you take a martial art out of the context of fighting and put in into a system of competition where it is only competing against itself, it becomes highly self-reflexive and can frequently drift into a realm of near absurdity, as we see in this match.
1/28/13 6:19 PM
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liquidrob
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ADCC No Gi all day, Gi BJJ is very hard to watch now a days
1/28/13 6:33 PM
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liquidrob
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I am not a fan of this battles and the double guard pull, etc...but I don't know why you guys keep bringing up mma, or real fights, and hold it against these guys, sport bjj titles are there goal and that's what they train for and our succeeding at, obviously they don't care about winning mma fights

This is just a sport to them
1/28/13 6:34 PM
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Muffinho
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There are plenty of new school guys who don't do this stuff.

See how Cobrinha reacts when two of his students play double guard in class. Leandro Lo trains with the Miyaos and he doesn't do this stuff, and he is as new school as you can get.
1/28/13 6:37 PM
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Matthieu Battle
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back in the day, early ufc era, a lot of people were critical of bjj, not because it didn't get results, but because it was unfamiliar, unsporting. who wants to win by hugging? if i have to have some guy's head in my crotch to win, no thanks. that's not REAL fighting.

the parallels with modern sport bjj are similar, for sure, but that's one of the things that's great about competition - it's results driven. so the game changes cyclically based on what's successful and right now, as has been mentioned, if you stand up in front of a meow, you're in trouble. the rules will change, changing the game, the game will change, changing the rules, but still bjj will grow because it's constantly being tested, regardless of the rules. that's why we're seeing stuff now in mma that would've been unthinkable a few years ago, because of it being hammered out on the mats.

one of bjj's greatest strengths is it's flexibility and accessibility to people of various body types and temperaments. you can be an old skool carlson smash and choke guy, you can be an upside down berimbolo guy. you can be a young athletic competitor, you can be a 3 day a week hobbyist. and all of these guys (and everyone in between) can share the same mats and have a good time and learn from each other, day in and day out. we need all of those games in our gyms to keep our jiu jitsu strong. top guys need the squirrelly guard players to hone their passing. and how will the upside down weenies learn guard retention without those smashers?

it's cool with me if someone pulls gward; even if i pull gward at the same time. it's all jiu jitsu to me and i dig it.
1/28/13 6:38 PM
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Matthieu Battle
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back in the day, early ufc era, a lot of people were critical of bjj, not because it didn't get results, but because it was unfamiliar, unsporting. who wants to win by hugging? if i have to have some guy's head in my crotch to win, no thanks. that's not REAL fighting.

the parallels with modern sport bjj are similar, for sure, but that's one of the things that's great about competition - it's results driven. so the game changes cyclically based on what's successful and right now, as has been mentioned, if you stand up in front of a meow, you're in trouble. the rules will change, changing the game, the game will change, changing the rules, but still bjj will grow because it's constantly being tested, regardless of the rules. that's why we're seeing stuff now in mma that would've been unthinkable a few years ago, because of it being hammered out on the mats.

one of bjj's greatest strengths is it's flexibility and accessibility to people of various body types and temperaments. you can be an old skool carlson smash and choke guy, you can be an upside down berimbolo guy. you can be a young athletic competitor, you can be a 3 day a week hobbyist. and all of these guys (and everyone in between) can share the same mats and have a good time and learn from each other, day in and day out. we need all of those games in our gyms to keep our jiu jitsu strong. top guys need the squirrelly guard players to hone their passing. and how will the upside down weenies learn guard retention without those smashers?

it's cool with me if someone pulls gward; even if i pull gward at the same time. it's all jiu jitsu to me and i dig it.
1/28/13 6:58 PM
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liquidrob
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I remember when people thought Marcelo was new school doing x guard and his butt scooting was bad for bjj and he wasn't representing what bjj is all about, now guys laugh at the new crop and say "Be like Marcelo!", its just how it goes

The new guys see it as a sport and not a martial art, oh well, that's why people decide between sport bjj and self defense bjj, gi or no gi, etc...they want to train at what they like to do

Its like that go almost every sport, back in the 50' and 60's RBs would never run out of bounds before a hit, WRs wouldnt dive straight to the ground after a catch, etc...just rambling now, don't mind me
1/28/13 7:02 PM
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liquidrob
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Sub only is the way to go, maybe throw in points for superior positions and there can be a shutout rule added so guys just cant defend and do nothing for a draw

I personally think sweeps shouldn't be worth points, if bjj sees the guard as a neutral position why is it worth points just to flip it, it would put more emphasis on passing and scoring on top, so you can playbottom but after you sweep you need to pass to get points
1/28/13 7:48 PM
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joe_mama
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Buttflopping works for Miyao Bros and their body types. Not everyone is going to play that game of course, or is even capable of doing so. Just based on looking at their physiques and what weight class they are in, I think it is safe to speculate that they are not very strong(relatively speaking of course).

Therefore this sort of game of squid like hyper-flexible guard is going to be what works best for them.
1/28/13 8:51 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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elburrogrande - 
Furacao - Definite split occurring between old school BJJ'rs vs new school...

Having started BJJ in the 90's with the intent of joining a real fighting art and adding it to my kickboxing and wrestling background, I cannot see the attraction with the "new BJJ sport game".

Does someone really join BJJ nowadays with this being the top of ones "game" and still consider themselves involved in a fighting art?

Of note, I do teach my students berimobolos but with the sole intent of smashing this BS. One did it very well while medaling at Worlds this year smashing several new style berimobolos "playas" winning from the top position.

I disagree completely. Watch Marcin Held vs Rich Clementi. Marcin proves that the 50/50, tornado guard, and inverted guard could all be used very effectively against a trained opponent in MMA. And Marcin Held is not even an elite grappler.

OK 1st off....apples and oranges.

Using a technique and strategy in MMA does not equal self defense or "combat". MMAers, and hopefully someone engaged in a serious fight would bring a lot more tools than just stupid shit like we see in sport jiujitsu. This argument makes no sense!

BJJ as a fighting style has many tools useful for a fight.....that is a fact. That shit seen in the match is crap in that application. Your example of Held v. Clementi....Clementi was prevented from kicking Held in the face and head, even the commentators mention that. Just because something works in a controlled environment does not make it viable in others.

The specialization of BJJ to defeat BJJ takes it further away from it fighting roots. Guys that come into BJJ recently don't seem to understand how/what BJJ training was for, its techniques, strategies and tactics.
1/28/13 8:52 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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shen - 

What is now happening in BJJ is what has always happened with "martial arts" that have become "sports". People start "gaming the rules" and start utilizing strategies & techniques which are far outside the reality of actual fighting.

When you take a martial art out of the context of fighting and put in into a system of competition where it is only competing against itself, it becomes highly self-reflexive and can frequently drift into a realm of near absurdity, as we see in this match.

THAT!

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