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BJJGround Forum >> Keenan vs Miyao was a Bjj abomination


1/28/13 9:03 PM
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BigEyedFish
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well said shen
1/28/13 9:06 PM
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BigEyedFish
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" no one is ever gonna try to stand up so imo bjj is becoming a super lame martial art being watered down by ibjjf and chasing stupid gold medals"

+1

I watch every mundial and pan. I but the stream and support the sport. But I find more and more I am waiting for the match to end because it is a foot fight, or a butt scoot athon, or a 50/50 lock fest. So I wait for the next match to start and hope it is better than the last. more and more I find myself waiting...
1/29/13 12:28 AM
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nogidavid
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-n931O-74

 

when NOTHING happens for 9 MINUTES!! and the referee gives no stalling warnings, something is fucked up imo

1/29/13 12:57 AM
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MickColins
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Jiu Jitsu is supposed to be training to learn how to fight and defend yourself. If you did half the shit popular in sport BJJ nowadays, you'd get punched or stomped. 

1/29/13 1:02 AM
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hakkas
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90% of all matches doesn't look like this so you exagerate the problem.
1/29/13 1:23 AM
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GrahamJ
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BJJ competition is the sportive side of the art, derived - obviously - from sparring.
Should sparring be more 'realistic'...?

I'm always bewildered when Rener and Ryron Gracie go on about the self-defence side being really important, and it's their main focus...when they've never been in a street fight.

If I just trained the self-defence stuff, and always had this imaginary, never going to happen, scenario in mind, I would stop training: it'd be boring, and pointless.

And the people who say (or infer) that the sport guys won't be able to use it on the street: they'll probably never have to; and if they did, i'm sure they'd use a technique appropriate to the situation (which they frequently do in their competitions...).

I agree that this kind of fight, and playing to exploit the rules, is shitty, and I cannot bear it - but sport BJJ isn't about proving BJJ as a self-defence discipline: it's about proving who has the finest technique (and conditioning...).
1/29/13 2:01 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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hakkas - 90% of all matches doesn't look like this so you exagerate the problem.

Perhaps 90% don't, I couldn't say, BigEyedFish seems to imply this is fairly prevalent:

"I watch every mundial and pan. I but the stream and support the sport. But I find more and more I am waiting for the match to end because it is a foot fight, or a butt scoot athon, or a 50/50 lock fest. So I wait for the next match to start and hope it is better than the last. more and more I find myself waiting..."


But the true issues at hand are.....

1. a novice could be influenced by who/what wins and focus their attention around that.

2. Many(?) instructors seem to overemphasize competition and thus structure training with that as the goal, leading to creation of specialized games, strategies and tactics.....to deny this is naive IMHO.

3. as elburrogrande's post indicates....people see these techniques, strategies and tactics as valid and proven, but fail to realize that the environment in which they are proven is controlled and very much artificial.

All this goes back to the numerous threads we've had on here basically boiling down to how some people think overemphasis of sport hurts the effectiveness of the fighting style/art of BJJ, while others disagree. All I know is that people from my "era" seem to hold the former view.....at least IME. Just a couple nights ago a former training partner (brown belt), who was quite involved and accomplished in competition (unlike me) before he stopped training due to a joint problem, commented to me how he disliked much of what he sees currently in BJJ. Some of my old partners work in law enforcement and likewise dislike what they see being trained and emphasized.

Just tonight I once again watched a judo sensei announce the changes in tecniques/tactics/training due to the changes being implemented by IJF.....to me this is an EXCELLENT example of what happens when competition defines the training goals of a style.
1/29/13 2:16 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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GrahamJ - BJJ competition is the sportive side of the art, derived - obviously - from sparring.
Should sparring be more 'realistic'...?

I'm always bewildered when Rener and Ryron Gracie go on about the self-defence side being really important, and it's their main focus...when they've never been in a street fight.

If I just trained the self-defence stuff, and always had this imaginary, never going to happen, scenario in mind, I would stop training: it'd be boring, and pointless.

And the people who say (or infer) that the sport guys won't be able to use it on the street: they'll probably never have to; and if they did, i'm sure they'd use a technique appropriate to the situation (which they frequently do in their competitions...).

I agree that this kind of fight, and playing to exploit the rules, is shitty, and I cannot bear it - but sport BJJ isn't about proving BJJ as a self-defence discipline: it's about proving who has the finest technique (and conditioning...).

Where is it said that one should only be training "self-defense stuff"?

Again, the issue is specialization and gaming.....and the acceptance that an artificial environment proves the validity of that particular end product.

Sparring is what it is......but the goal (or perhaps focus would be better term?) of training to create specialized BJJ tools to counter BJJ just seems like the wrong path to me, if not many others.

And I don't believe that someone will "use the appropriate technique to the situation" when faced with a skilled aggressive opponent/attacker.....a commonly held belief among trainers of various fields is that to default to what you train.
1/29/13 2:52 AM
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GrahamJ
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Sgt. Slaphead - 
GrahamJ - BJJ competition is the sportive side of the art, derived - obviously - from sparring.
Should sparring be more 'realistic'...?

I'm always bewildered when Rener and Ryron Gracie go on about the self-defence side being really important, and it's their main focus...when they've never been in a street fight.

If I just trained the self-defence stuff, and always had this imaginary, never going to happen, scenario in mind, I would stop training: it'd be boring, and pointless.

And the people who say (or infer) that the sport guys won't be able to use it on the street: they'll probably never have to; and if they did, i'm sure they'd use a technique appropriate to the situation (which they frequently do in their competitions...).

I agree that this kind of fight, and playing to exploit the rules, is shitty, and I cannot bear it - but sport BJJ isn't about proving BJJ as a self-defence discipline: it's about proving who has the finest technique (and conditioning...).

Where is it said that one should only be training "self-defense stuff"?

Again, the issue is specialization and gaming.....and the acceptance that an artificial environment proves the validity of that particular end product.

Sparring is what it is......but the goal (or perhaps focus would be better term?) of training to create specialized BJJ tools to counter BJJ just seems like the wrong path to me, if not many others.

And I don't believe that someone will "use the appropriate technique to the situation" when faced with a skilled aggressive opponent/attacker.....a commonly held belief among trainers of various fields is that to default to what you train.

It wasn't said - but the question has to be asked 'What should be allowed in sparring?', if you're going to denigrate techniques which exploit the non-striking environment.

It sounds very much like the TMAers, going on about 'We can't spar because our techniques are too deadly...': yes, you might get into positions that leave you vulnerable to strikes - but the implicit weakness of sparring in any martial art is that the other guy knows your techniques, and will try his best to negate them; a guy on the street won't, so after a little bit of training, you'll be able to handle him easily.

Continuing to train self-defence, year after year, for decades, with the aim of refining your ability, is a waste of time: how hard is it - when you spar in BJJ - to reach a satisfactory level of competence; and how much 'time to real-life application' will there be...?
You'd have to be paranoid to the level of a 'doomsday prepper' to have that much dedication to preparing for the unlikely hypothetical - and one that is even less likely to be a life-or-death encounter (or anything close).

Ryan Hall (inverted guard; 50/50; deep half guard) seemed to do fine when he defaulted to what he trains.
1/29/13 3:10 AM
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Soul Gravy
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I'd rather watch two white belts grapple than that match.
1/29/13 3:27 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Edited: 01/29/13 3:29 AM
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edited....posted w/o quote. corrected in next post
1/29/13 3:29 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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GrahamJ - 
Sgt. Slaphead - 
GrahamJ - BJJ competition is the sportive side of the art, derived - obviously - from sparring.
Should sparring be more 'realistic'...?

I'm always bewildered when Rener and Ryron Gracie go on about the self-defence side being really important, and it's their main focus...when they've never been in a street fight.

If I just trained the self-defence stuff, and always had this imaginary, never going to happen, scenario in mind, I would stop training: it'd be boring, and pointless.

And the people who say (or infer) that the sport guys won't be able to use it on the street: they'll probably never have to; and if they did, i'm sure they'd use a technique appropriate to the situation (which they frequently do in their competitions...).

I agree that this kind of fight, and playing to exploit the rules, is shitty, and I cannot bear it - but sport BJJ isn't about proving BJJ as a self-defence discipline: it's about proving who has the finest technique (and conditioning...).

Where is it said that one should only be training "self-defense stuff"?

Again, the issue is specialization and gaming.....and the acceptance that an artificial environment proves the validity of that particular end product.

Sparring is what it is......but the goal (or perhaps focus would be better term?) of training to create specialized BJJ tools to counter BJJ just seems like the wrong path to me, if not many others.

And I don't believe that someone will "use the appropriate technique to the situation" when faced with a skilled aggressive opponent/attacker.....a commonly held belief among trainers of various fields is that to default to what you train.

It wasn't said - but the question has to be asked 'What should be allowed in sparring?', if you're going to denigrate techniques which exploit the non-striking environment.

It sounds very much like the TMAers, going on about 'We can't spar because our techniques are too deadly...': yes, you might get into positions that leave you vulnerable to strikes - but the implicit weakness of sparring in any martial art is that the other guy knows your techniques, and will try his best to negate them; a guy on the street won't, so after a little bit of training, you'll be able to handle him easily.

Continuing to train self-defence, year after year, for decades, with the aim of refining your ability, is a waste of time: how hard is it - when you spar in BJJ - to reach a satisfactory level of competence; and how much 'time to real-life application' will there be...?
You'd have to be paranoid to the level of a 'doomsday prepper' to have that much dedication to preparing for the unlikely hypothetical - and one that is even less likely to be a life-or-death encounter (or anything close).

Ryan Hall (inverted guard; 50/50; deep half guard) seemed to do fine when he defaulted to what he trains.

I'm gonna guess he trained for his MMA bouts......no? And again, my point about Held v. Clementi in my previous post.

As for sparring, I wrote:

"Sparring is what it is......but the goal (or perhaps focus would be better term?) of training to create specialized BJJ tools to counter BJJ just seems like the wrong path to me, if not many others."

I dunno how else to put it. Spar, have fun, compete......but if competition oriented style becomes the goal of training then somewhere along the way the art/style itself will become affected and something lost. Ryron a Rener did a vid about a purple belt getting into a fight is a good example of BJJer with a different foundation. I have trained many in LE and military looking for good tools.....training was always fun and challenging and didn't always revolve around "fighting". I've heard from several purple to brown level BJJers who state they fail at takedown/clinch.....well HOW THE HELL are they gonna get to the ground to apply their ground skills?

BJJ is not just groundwork.....that point is lost to many. and while BJJ's standup and clinch isn't as sophisticated as other styles, it is fairly functional. It's funny, many would pursue increasingly sophisticated/complex groundwork yet NEVER even seek to develop a fundamental level of clinch skill......and this is exacerbated by an overemphasis on the artificial environment of competition oriented jiujitsu.
1/29/13 7:39 AM
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Akston
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Matthieu Battle - back in the day, early ufc era, a lot of people were critical of bjj, not because it didn't get results, but because it was unfamiliar, unsporting. who wants to win by hugging? if i have to have some guy's head in my crotch to win, no thanks. that's not REAL fighting.

the parallels with modern sport bjj are similar, for sure, but that's one of the things that's great about competition - it's results driven. so the game changes cyclically based on what's successful and right now, as has been mentioned, if you stand up in front of a meow, you're in trouble. the rules will change, changing the game, the game will change, changing the rules, but still bjj will grow because it's constantly being tested, regardless of the rules. that's why we're seeing stuff now in mma that would've been unthinkable a few years ago, because of it being hammered out on the mats.

one of bjj's greatest strengths is it's flexibility and accessibility to people of various body types and temperaments. you can be an old skool carlson smash and choke guy, you can be an upside down berimbolo guy. you can be a young athletic competitor, you can be a 3 day a week hobbyist. and all of these guys (and everyone in between) can share the same mats and have a good time and learn from each other, day in and day out. we need all of those games in our gyms to keep our jiu jitsu strong. top guys need the squirrelly guard players to hone their passing. and how will the upside down weenies learn guard retention without those smashers?

it's cool with me if someone pulls gward; even if i pull gward at the same time. it's all jiu jitsu to me and i dig it.
Good post Phone Post
1/29/13 8:02 AM
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Hywel Teague
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nogidavid - 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-n931O-74

 

when NOTHING happens for 9 MINUTES!! and the referee gives no stalling warnings, something is fucked up imo


Untrue, there were a few leg attacks and I guarantee had one guy slipped up for second the other would have got passed / his back taken

Keenan himself told me he thinks it sucks (exact words: "I hate it") but he does it because it's the only way to beat the Miyao's.
1/29/13 11:59 AM
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Ozzimandias
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Man that was rough.  Imagine if that was the only video that you could show your friends and co-workers what BJJ is.  You're telling me that is the only way to beat the Miyao's who are featherweights??? 

I really hate double floppers.

1/29/13 12:53 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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liquidrob - I remember when people thought Marcelo was new school doing x guard and his butt scooting was bad for bjj and he wasn't representing what bjj is all about, now guys laugh at the new crop and say "Be like Marcelo!", its just how it goes

The new guys see it as a sport and not a martial art, oh well, that's why people decide between sport bjj and self defense bjj, gi or no gi, etc...they want to train at what they like to do

Its like that go almost every sport, back in the 50' and 60's RBs would never run out of bounds before a hit, WRs wouldnt dive straight to the ground after a catch, etc...just rambling now, don't mind me

Then he took an MMA fight and we saw what happened. A once in a generation BJJ talent got beaten by a mid tier fighter. See also Saulo.
1/29/13 1:04 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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liquidrob - Sub only is the way to go, maybe throw in points for superior positions and there can be a shutout rule added so guys just cant defend and do nothing for a draw

I personally think sweeps shouldn't be worth points, if bjj sees the guard as a neutral position why is it worth points just to flip it, it would put more emphasis on passing and scoring on top, so you can playbottom but after you sweep you need to pass to get points

Not sure I agree.

Back when BJJ was regularly being used in Vale Tudo, challenge fights and random altercations in speedos on the beach, the points were set up in a certain way. There's a reason a sweep is worth points. It's because position matters and being on top able to make significant strikes is important. Channel your inner Mario Sperry here.

What your describing is basically catch wrestling. The entire underpinning of BJJ is the positional hierarchy. There are very good reasons for that. ..
1/29/13 1:07 PM
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MickColins
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This thread reminded me of a story the older dudes at my school tell. Some guy was doing some kind of funky guard or position and asked Carlson Sr. what he'd do to counter it. He replied " I'd punch you in the face". Punching a dude in the face on the ground is Bjj, too.

You aren't training wacky sport shit to counter Bjj. You are in a circle jerk. Phone Post
1/29/13 1:12 PM
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liquidrob
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TheOtherWhiteFlu - 
liquidrob - Sub only is the way to go, maybe throw in points for superior positions and there can be a shutout rule added so guys just cant defend and do nothing for a draw

I personally think sweeps shouldn't be worth points, if bjj sees the guard as a neutral position why is it worth points just to flip it, it would put more emphasis on passing and scoring on top, so you can playbottom but after you sweep you need to pass to get points

Not sure I agree.

Back when BJJ was regularly being used in Vale Tudo, challenge fights and random altercations in speedos on the beach, the points were set up in a certain way. There's a reason a sweep is worth points. It's because position matters and being on top able to make significant strikes is important. Channel your inner Mario Sperry here.

What your describing is basically catch wrestling. The entire underpinning of BJJ is the positional hierarchy. There are very good reasons for that. ..

Huh? You still get points for mount, side, back, etc...

Taking away sweep points makes superior postion more improtant and sticks to the more core principles of bjj, guys would need to pass, mount, take the back more to actually win instead of guard pull, sweep and chill

It wouldn't take away guys being awesome at sweeps, but would force them to do something after the sweep
1/29/13 1:27 PM
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Truemanc3
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Edited: 01/29/13 1:28 PM
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??????????????? LOL!
1/29/13 2:17 PM
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Claude Patrick
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everyone needs to realise whats taken place here.

smart competitiors..are going to use the tools best suited to the job

bjj the art built for brazilian street fights vs hapless tough guys still works but dont think that approach is the best for sport events or vice versa..

If you want to fight no doubt the miyao guard work isnt the best approach but im sure they can do more and more importantly they arent fighters.. nor is anyone competing in the event so much like judo its gotten very sportive..

what was rorion saying back in 1995?? :)
1/29/13 2:21 PM
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onyx2002
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So upon further review we have established

watching double guard pull matches are often boring

the guys doing the guard pulling are often good at all areas of bjj but choose to do this out of a desire to win a match

people will always complain about the lack of standup, but will also complain standup is boring when nothing happens and will also complain about wrestlers only doing takedowns and winning matches

BJJ alone against a trained MMA fighter is never a good matchup, BJJ against a group is not ideal, bjj sport style or old school is often enough one on one against an untrained attacker

The older generation will always complain about the younger generation.

1/29/13 2:23 PM
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Hywel Teague
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OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.
1/29/13 2:34 PM
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krept
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It seems to me that in a "real" fight, a BJJ guy will probably buttflop if he knows his opponent is a world class Judoka or wrestler. Probably would NOT do the same against a muay thai guy in the absence of a "grounded opponent" rule.

Could this match be considered the pinnacle of the sport at brown? It could, which is why I think some people are getting upset. Does it represent the pinnacle of the art? Not at all.

1/29/13 3:01 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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liquidrob - 
TheOtherWhiteFlu - 
liquidrob - Sub only is the way to go, maybe throw in points for superior positions and there can be a shutout rule added so guys just cant defend and do nothing for a draw

I personally think sweeps shouldn't be worth points, if bjj sees the guard as a neutral position why is it worth points just to flip it, it would put more emphasis on passing and scoring on top, so you can playbottom but after you sweep you need to pass to get points

Not sure I agree.

Back when BJJ was regularly being used in Vale Tudo, challenge fights and random altercations in speedos on the beach, the points were set up in a certain way. There's a reason a sweep is worth points. It's because position matters and being on top able to make significant strikes is important. Channel your inner Mario Sperry here.

What your describing is basically catch wrestling. The entire underpinning of BJJ is the positional hierarchy. There are very good reasons for that. ..

Huh? You still get points for mount, side, back, etc...

Taking away sweep points makes superior postion more improtant and sticks to the more core principles of bjj, guys would need to pass, mount, take the back more to actually win instead of guard pull, sweep and chill

It wouldn't take away guys being awesome at sweeps, but would force them to do something after the sweep

"Sub only is the way to go, maybe throw in points for superior positions"

Either it's sub only or there are points.

I was talking about the sub only case.

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