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BJJGround Forum >> Keenan vs Miyao was a Bjj abomination


1/29/13 3:05 PM
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liquidrob
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I think Sub Only is the way to go at the black belt level, no time limit

The lower belt levels need points and a good structure, I think sweep points should be taken away though
1/29/13 3:15 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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onyx2002 - So upon further review we have established

watching double guard pull matches are often boring

the guys doing the guard pulling are often good at all areas of bjj but choose to do this out of a desire to win a match

people will always complain about the lack of standup, but will also complain standup is boring when nothing happens and will also complain about wrestlers only doing takedowns and winning matches

BJJ alone against a trained MMA fighter is never a good matchup, BJJ against a group is not ideal, bjj sport style or old school is often enough one on one against an untrained attacker

The older generation will always complain about the younger generation.


More like BJJ has become TKD-ified.

An art based on the premise of actually being used against resisting opponents trying to beat the shit out of you has been redefined to playing footsie without even a pretense that someone might want to oh, say punch you in the face.

Right down to the weird old timers going on about how Core it was in their day.

1/29/13 3:28 PM
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GrahamJ
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Hywel Teague - 
nogidavid - 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-n931O-74

 

when NOTHING happens for 9 MINUTES!! and the referee gives no stalling warnings, something is fucked up imo


Untrue, there were a few leg attacks and I guarantee had one guy slipped up for second the other would have got passed / his back taken

Keenan himself told me he thinks it sucks (exact words: "I hate it") but he does it because it's the only way to beat the Miyao's.

Was that before or after you dropped the soap?
1/29/13 4:04 PM
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AokiPants
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Matthieu Battle - i'd rather watch a double gward match than one of the standup 'battles' you see where guys just circle and slap at each other for 75% of the match, maybe winning an advantage for an almost takedown out of bounds.

zzzzzzzzz...
This Phone Post
1/29/13 5:26 PM
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gusto
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WhoRunsBarterTown - I know several brown and black belts that couldnt take down an average athletic boxer kid from the hood if their life depended on it (and it probably would if the guy was pissed at them).

Way to go bjj.

takedowns are often easier in a street fight/getting attacked situation as the attacker will be throwing punches out of anger


squaring up and fighting is a different story
1/29/13 5:34 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

I can appreciate where the pro-sport voices are coming from I wish all these guys success.

Speaking for myself, I think Marcelo Garcia's MMA match crystallized my thinking to some extent. When a master of new-school jiu-jitsu can't finish a midlevel fighter, it's clear that the way he was training didn't prepare him for the reality of the situation.
1/29/13 5:36 PM
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GrahamJ
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The Mat Pimp - 
Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

I can appreciate where the pro-sport voices are coming from I wish all these guys success.

Speaking for myself, I think Marcelo Garcia's MMA match crystallized my thinking to some extent. When a master of new-school jiu-jitsu can't finish a midlevel fighter, it's clear that the way he was training didn't prepare him for the reality of the situation.

How's Roger Gracie's stand-up...?
1/29/13 5:41 PM
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liquidrob
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The Marcelo fight gets way to much criticism, he controlled the entire first round, just cpuldnt finish the RNC with the gloves on than he caught a knee and got cut, he wasn't KOd or anything

1/29/13 5:56 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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GrahamJ - 
The Mat Pimp - 
Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

I can appreciate where the pro-sport voices are coming from I wish all these guys success.

Speaking for myself, I think Marcelo Garcia's MMA match crystallized my thinking to some extent. When a master of new-school jiu-jitsu can't finish a midlevel fighter, it's clear that the way he was training didn't prepare him for the reality of the situation.

How's Roger Gracie's stand-up...?

Weak, but at least his BJJ game works in MMA.
1/29/13 5:58 PM
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TheOtherWhiteFlu
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liquidrob - The Marcelo fight gets way to much criticism, he controlled the entire first round, just cpuldnt finish the RNC with the gloves on than he caught a knee and got cut, he wasn't KOd or anything


Marcelo was ... Marcelo. On a completely different level than all but Jacare and Roger at the time. He was in there against a scrub, and looked lost by the second round.

1/29/13 6:03 PM
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kilemark
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WhoRunsBarterTown - -1 for pulling guard and +2 points for the first person to stand back up in the event of a double guard pull would put an end to this faggotry.

Great name by the way Phone Post
1/29/13 6:19 PM
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GrahamJ
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TheOtherWhiteFlu - 
GrahamJ - 
The Mat Pimp - 
Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

I can appreciate where the pro-sport voices are coming from I wish all these guys success.

Speaking for myself, I think Marcelo Garcia's MMA match crystallized my thinking to some extent. When a master of new-school jiu-jitsu can't finish a midlevel fighter, it's clear that the way he was training didn't prepare him for the reality of the situation.

How's Roger Gracie's stand-up...?

Weak, but at least his BJJ game works in MMA.

As has been pointed out: so did Marcelo's (on the basis of the one fight we can judge from).

Anybody can get caught in stand-up - let alone someone new to it; and some people just don't like getting hit - e.g., Palhares: his last two fights, he just st all will to fight when he got hit.

My point was: if the whole ethos of 'old-school' BJJ was still wholly relevant, then a load of Gracies would dominate MMA right now - but they don't, because their rule-set, and their style, is no longer unknown, so people have to learn (good) striking to set up the ground game (even then it's not a dead cert: you might have to fight standing).

It's nothing to do with 'old BJJ Vs new BJJ': it's to do with neither being adequate (on their own) in MMA, because people know what's coming, and they train to defend it.
1/29/13 6:28 PM
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pray for japan
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WhoRunsBarterTown - I know several brown and black belts that couldnt take down an average athletic boxer kid from the hood if their life depended on it (and it probably would if the guy was pissed at them).

Way to go bjj.
really? i call bs. who u talking about? Phone Post
1/29/13 6:37 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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GrahamJ, as another poster stated, it's not strong but he is working on it and can join it to a ground game which is easily adaptable to MMA.

Liquidrob, I see where you are coming from and I still have nothing but respect for MG; my point was only about the way he was preparing for fights. When he saw that he couldn't finish the fight the way he had intended to with an RNC, he didn't try a different approach because he was only really well prepared for one aspect of the fight. He couldn't switch to striking, or throwing, or ground and pound because he hadn't prepared for it.
1/29/13 8:32 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

Why? Does that invalidate what is being said here?
Seriously, that shit we saw was absurd and highly specialized, for a specific environment, requiring specialized attributes and NOT representative of jiujitsu IS A LEGIT OPINION/OBSERVATION IMHO.


Shen wrote on pg4:
"When you take a martial art out of the context of fighting and put in into a system of competition where it is only competing against itself, it becomes highly self-reflexive and can frequently drift into a realm of near absurdity, as we see in this match."

I wrote on pg6.:
BJJ is not just groundwork.....that point is lost to many. and while BJJ's standup and clinch isn't as sophisticated as other styles, it is fairly functional. It's funny, many would pursue increasingly sophisticated/complex groundwork yet NEVER even seek to develop a fundamental level of clinch skill......and this is exacerbated by an overemphasis on the artificial environment of competition oriented jiujitsu.

If the Miyaos, etc have well rounded skills and this is just a facet they use for comps then GREAT!.......If such is the case whith these competitors, and with the majority of jiujitsu practitioners, and is not becoming the driving focus of jiujitsu, then we really have nothing to gripe about.

But is that the case?....or are we headed down the same road of other styles, judo being a good example.
1/29/13 8:42 PM
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John Clarke
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Sgt. Slaphead - 
Hywel Teague - OK all you guys moaning how a match like this is faggy and weak and boring and lame..

Go out there and beat the Miyao bros without doing this shit.


I'd like to see how you get on.

Why? Does that invalidate what is being said here?
Seriously, that shit we saw was absurd and highly specialized, for a specific environment, requiring specialized attributes and NOT representative of jiujitsu IS A LEGIT OPINION/OBSERVATION IMHO.


Shen wrote on pg4:
"When you take a martial art out of the context of fighting and put in into a system of competition where it is only competing against itself, it becomes highly self-reflexive and can frequently drift into a realm of near absurdity, as we see in this match."

I wrote on pg6.:
BJJ is not just groundwork.....that point is lost to many. and while BJJ's standup and clinch isn't as sophisticated as other styles, it is fairly functional. It's funny, many would pursue increasingly sophisticated/complex groundwork yet NEVER even seek to develop a fundamental level of clinch skill......and this is exacerbated by an overemphasis on the artificial environment of competition oriented jiujitsu.

If the Miyaos, etc have well rounded skills and this is just a facet they use for comps then GREAT!.......If such is the case whith these competitors, and with the majority of jiujitsu practitioners, and is not becoming the driving focus of jiujitsu, then we really have nothing to gripe about.

But is that the case?....or are we headed down the same road of other styles, judo being a good example.

I have provided you with one vote up.
1/29/13 9:45 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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thank you!

would seem someone has likewise given me a vote....down? as it seems im still at the same level.

LOL!.....i dont even know what vote do! is it like an attaboy?
1/29/13 9:48 PM
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Muffinho
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Apparently, one of the miyaos has very good judo. Notice, Claudio Calasans is a very good judo black belt, his father is a red and white belt in judo. Calasans was also on the brazil ntl wrestling team. Calasans often pulls guard and will play double guard a lot.


I never play double guard/footsies, I have terrible wresting and Judo, but I will pull guard with an opponent if I know they are pulling so I can get the advantage when i come on top. I want to play on top, might as well as get an adv for it.
1/29/13 10:40 PM
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elitecmbt
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^^^^Or you could learn a takedown and get two points. Hell, if they pull guard while you attempt a takedown you get two points. But you would rather have an advantage? Phone Post
1/29/13 10:47 PM
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Muffinho
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elitecmbt -  ^^^^Or you could learn a takedown and get two points. Hell, if they pull guard while you attempt a takedown you get two points. But you would rather have an advantage? Phone Post

Yeah, okay that's going to happen. The moment they get a grip they sit down.

There is no time for a takedown.

And I train wrestling 3x a week.
1/29/13 10:52 PM
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elitecmbt
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Sorry, I guess that doesn't make sense to me. I have lots of people give up the takedown/pull guard once they realize I am going for a takedown. Free two points. Also you train takedowns three days a week but still pull guard on a guard puller? I think your gameplan sucks. Phone Post
1/29/13 10:58 PM
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Muffinho
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I train takedowns 3x a week for the past few months. They are going to pull, i can either get 1 advantage or just be on top. Might as well as take the advantage.

Its rare to see someone lightweight down fight for takedowns.
1/30/13 2:02 AM
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Shemhazai
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Muffinho - I train takedowns 3x a week for the past few months. They are going to pull, i can either get 1 advantage or just be on top. Might as well as take the advantage.

Its rare to see someone lightweight down fight for takedowns.

The only small guy I can think of who consistently gets the takedown is Guilherme, and he does it by faking the guard pull. We're gonna need a rule change to see takedowns from standing become an integral part of BJJ again.
1/30/13 4:20 AM
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GrahamJ
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http://joshua-palmer.com/am-i-starting-to-dislike-brazilian-jiu-jitsu/
1/30/13 4:40 AM
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Hywel Teague
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Lol at butthurt old school guys voting me down

Absurd as watching two grown men scissoring may be, if this is what is required to nullify the Miyaos' game then doesn't that speak to it's effectiveness?

The fact Keenan uses this method, one he told me hates, is all the proof you need. If the best brown belt in the world needs to pull that shit, it goes to show that anything else will get you caught.

"The rules are to blame! Allow leg attacks! This isn't 'pure' jiu-jitsu!"

You want to ban guard pulling? I'm sure Helio would have approved.

Keenan went for a leg attack and almost got his back taken as a result.

'Pure' jiu-jitsu is a misnomer, something spoken by martial artists who refuse to evolve, to learn new techniques or styles.

Sport jiu-jitsu is what it is. That doesn't mean the real life application (teh street / MMA) of jiu-jitsu will cease to exist, so long as people continue to train it. Phone Post

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