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UnderGround Forums >> Super Heavy Weight Division inevitable?


1/28/13 8:59 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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The current debates on Fedor vs. Brock Lesnar have me thinking that the days of the 225-230 pound HW Champ are behind us.

As MMA fighters have gotten more and more skilled, the weight classes have become more and more important.

The problem with the HW division is that it encompasses too broad of a weight difference to be fair to the (smaller) 230 pound HW.

To keep this discussion apples to apples, all things equal, I am going to use the difference (in percentage) between the lowest allowable weight in the division and the highest allowable weight in the division at weigh-in time. There is no way to quantify how much weight a given fighter can cut, so lets just focus on weigh-in.

Heavy Weight - 206 to 265 pounds. A differences of 59 pounds. That means the 206-pound fighter is giving up 28.5% (206 x 28.5% = 59 pounds) of his weight to his 265-pound opponent.

Light Heavy Weight - 186 to 205 pounds. A difference of 19 pounds. That means a 186-pound fighter is giving up right at 10.2% (186 X 10.2% = 19 pounds) of his weight to his 205-pound opponent.

Middle Weight - 171 to 185 pounds. A difference of 14 pounds. That means the 171-pound fighter is giving up 8% (171 X 8% = 14 pounds) of his weight to his 185-pound opponent.

Following that same formula as above and you have:

Welter Weight - 9%

Light Weight - 6%

Feather Weight - 7%

Bantam Weight - 7%

Fly Weight - 7%.

All things being equal, the "small" HW is giving up from over 2, to as much as 4 times the percentage of weight as is given up by the "smaller" fighter in any of the other weight divisions.

That is just crazy.

Is it time for a Super Heavy Weight division? Are there enough competitors to split HW and fill two divisions? At what weight would you split the divisions? At what point in time would you consider splitting the HW division into HW/SHW?

Please cuss and discuss.
1/28/13 9:04 PM
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HexRei
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There already IS a super heavy weight division. 265+. The UFC just doesn't really utilize it, only bout I know of in that div is Gan McGee vs some guy whose name I can't remember
1/28/13 9:05 PM
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Ringworm74
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Agree Phone Post
1/28/13 9:05 PM
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive
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1/28/13 9:07 PM
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HexRei
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oh lol it was barnett.
1/28/13 9:11 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive - 


Cain is right at 240 pounds.

Which is right about where I think it ought to change from HW to SHW. At least in that ballpark (+/-) 5 pounds or so.

Granted, Fedor is listed at 236 on Wiki, but I would assert he could have walked in a bit leaner at 225 and probably could have made 205 with a weight cut.
1/28/13 9:12 PM
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive
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ShawnTheBadger - 
OnlyTheStrongSurvive - 


Cain is right at 240 pounds.

Which is right about where I think it ought to change from HW to SHW. At least in that ballpark (+/-) 5 pounds or so.

Granted, Fedor is listed at 236 on Wiki, but I would assert he could have walked in a bit leaner at 225 and probably could have made 205 with a weight cut.

He is flabby and could make 225 easily. So could JDS and Cormier.

1/28/13 9:15 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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HexRei - There already IS a super heavy weight division. 265+. The UFC just doesn't really utilize it, only bout I know of in that div is Gan McGee vs some guy whose name I can't remember

That still does not address the issue that the weight division is still too broad from the smallest possible HW to the largest possible HW (at weigh-in).

28.5% difference at HW is over two (2X) to four (4X) times as much a weight difference as is possible in any other division.
1/28/13 9:27 PM
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive
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I think the smaller heavyweights are doing just fine against the giants.

1/28/13 9:32 PM
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UGCTT_granite007
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I'd say no. Not enough natural "giants". It would just be a bunch of fat guys. And a few natural "giants".

I like things the way they are now.
But, that's just me.

1/28/13 9:34 PM
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HexRei
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ShawnTheBadger - 
HexRei - There already IS a super heavy weight division. 265+. The UFC just doesn't really utilize it, only bout I know of in that div is Gan McGee vs some guy whose name I can't remember

That still does not address the issue that the weight division is still too broad from the smallest possible HW to the largest possible HW (at weigh-in).

28.5% difference at HW is over two (2X) to four (4X) times as much a weight difference as is possible in any other division.

Yes but its about the depth of the division (and has been... its not like you're the first person to note this). HW is the shallowest division easily, and at the moment, as we see its not the biggest, heaviest guys running the place. It's not time yet for a change.
1/28/13 9:35 PM
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yellow c0ckahlc
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No need.

265 is the cap.

1/28/13 9:53 PM
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Chromium
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According to JCS of Fight Matrix, who calculated active fighter populations from the Sherdog database about a year ago, HW + SHW (he ranks them together) had around 750 or so active fighters, roughly the same as LHW. This was also less than Bantamweight-through-Middleweight.

I'd be okay with removing the upper limit on HW and maybe adding a Cruiserweight division at 225 or something when it's actually merited, but it really isn't right now. The UFC only has 29 listed HWs despite it being one of the two most financially important divisions (along with LHW). Splitting that in half would be hugely stupid.
1/28/13 9:58 PM
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HenryO
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Been proven wrong again and again. All the best HW's are around 240 or so

Not even worth talking about
1/28/13 9:59 PM
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Chris Power
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Why won't this die?
1/28/13 10:11 PM
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theGunt
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ShawnTheBadger - The current debates on Fedor vs. Brock Lesnar have me thinking that the days of the 225-230 pound HW Champ are behind us.

As MMA fighters have gotten more and more skilled, the weight classes have become more and more important.

The problem with the HW division is that it encompasses too broad of a weight difference to be fair to the (smaller) 230 pound HW.

To keep this discussion apples to apples, all things equal, I am going to use the difference (in percentage) between the lowest allowable weight in the division and the highest allowable weight in the division at weigh-in time. There is no way to quantify how much weight a given fighter can cut, so lets just focus on weigh-in.

Heavy Weight - 206 to 265 pounds. A differences of 59 pounds. That means the 206-pound fighter is giving up 28.5% (206 x 28.5% = 59 pounds) of his weight to his 265-pound opponent.

Light Heavy Weight - 186 to 205 pounds. A difference of 19 pounds. That means a 186-pound fighter is giving up right at 10.2% (186 X 10.2% = 19 pounds) of his weight to his 205-pound opponent.

Middle Weight - 171 to 185 pounds. A difference of 14 pounds. That means the 171-pound fighter is giving up 8% (171 X 8% = 14 pounds) of his weight to his 185-pound opponent.

Following that same formula as above and you have:

Welter Weight - 9%

Light Weight - 6%

Feather Weight - 7%

Bantam Weight - 7%

Fly Weight - 7%.

All things being equal, the "small" HW is giving up from over 2, to as much as 4 times the percentage of weight as is given up by the "smaller" fighter in any of the other weight divisions.

That is just crazy.

Is it time for a Super Heavy Weight division? Are there enough competitors to split HW and fill two divisions? At what weight would you split the divisions? At what point in time would you consider splitting the HW division into HW/SHW?

Please cuss and discuss.
Hi PorkSnorkle. Phone Post
1/28/13 10:22 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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Chris Power - Why won't this die?

Because newbies who are not "pro" (mud-namer I believe) cannot search farther back than one (1) month.
1/28/13 10:26 PM
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Snayke13
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Alpha Omega - That's fucking stupid. They should just remove the 265lb cap and make hw unlimited like boxing.
Sure, why not. Id watch sumos get smashed.. Phone Post
1/28/13 10:30 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much - Not many people will ever weigh in below 235 as they would most likely just cut the 30 lbs to fight at LHW. Yes the difference between 206-265 is large but most who are on the lower end will cut to LHW. I think in 5-10 years you may add another class but no time soon.

5-10 years huh? Fair enough.
1/28/13 10:40 PM
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bcolflesh
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If by "inevitable", you actually meant "already exists", then yes.
1/28/13 10:47 PM
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UGSlapshot
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Most of the ufc's HW division are cruiser weights, if the ufc opened that weighclass the heavyweight division would be gutted and the light heavyweight division would lose a few fighters.

So that's why they wont add a cruiser weight division, so I don't see them adding super heavyweight.

Sorry but imo there are just too few fighters with ufc quality skills at that weight. Phone Post
1/28/13 10:50 PM
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theshooter
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I've long thought that small heavyweights get screwed, and also that there ought to be a division for the really, really big guys who can't make 265 lbs.
1/28/13 10:59 PM
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ShawnTheBadger
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UGSlapshot -  Most of the ufc's HW division are cruiser weights, if the ufc opened that weighclass the heavyweight division would be gutted and the light heavyweight division would lose a few fighters.

So that's why they wont add a cruiser weight division, so I don't see them adding super heavyweight.

Sorry but imo there are just too few fighters with ufc quality skills at that weight. Phone Post

I actually was getting at the idea of a cruiser-weight division. Perhaps I could have articulated my thoughts better? I understand there are very, very few guys that cannot cut to 265.

I picture a future with ever bigger and more athletic guys cutting to 265. Guys as well rounded and athletic as Cain, but the size of Brock, cutting to 265 and showing up fight night at 280'ish. When that dude(s) comes along, the 235 pound HW's are going to be shit outta luck.
1/28/13 11:15 PM
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive
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theshooter - I've long thought that small heavyweights get screwed, and also that there ought to be a division for the really, really big guys who can't make 265 lbs.

What small heavyweights are getting screwed because of their size?


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