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BJJGround Forum >> Relson Gracie JJ vs. Gracie JJ


1/30/13 12:05 PM
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LCSULLA
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I have been looking a lot at Gracie Academy's outlook on training and their focus. And that got me wondering: is there was a difference between the approach Relson teaches and the Gracie Academy?
1/30/13 12:17 PM
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oblongo
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I seem to recall that Relson sent Rhalan to train at the Gracie Academy. But not so much to improve his jiu jitsu but to learn how they teach.
1/30/13 2:23 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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It's a very general question, are you wondering about something in particular?
1/30/13 4:41 PM
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shark tank
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Didn't Rhalan leave Jacksonville to train in California? How long was he at the Gracie Academy?
1/30/13 5:01 PM
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LCSULLA
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The Mat Pimp - It's a very general question, are you wondering about something in particular?

Very true. Hmmm. I guess what I was wondering is, with all the 'street vs sport' the Gracie academy seems to bring up (and theres nothing wrong with that), how much different is Relson's BJJ is from Gracie Academy's?
1/30/13 5:07 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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In my view, Relson loves competition, and that's where his heart lies but he gets pretty bothered by some of the developments competition has led to like double guard pulling.
1/30/13 5:23 PM
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blanko
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I'm not sure but sometimes getting a job is just that
1/30/13 6:19 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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?
1/30/13 7:51 PM
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blanko
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maybe he just got his son a good job that pays well.
1/30/13 8:31 PM
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markus
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to be honest...does anyone teach helios original 40 lessons anymore?

1/30/13 8:33 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Edited: 01/30/13 8:34 PM
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I do. I can teach them in his format, or in a reorganized curriculum which I have developed, showing the same techniques in alternate groupings.

1/30/13 8:39 PM
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12
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oblongo - I seem to recall that Relson sent Rhalan to train at the Gracie Academy. But not so much to improve his jiu jitsu but to learn how they teach.

he sent him to learn everything the boys would teach him.

1/30/13 11:49 PM
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FatBuddha
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Edited: 01/30/13 11:50 PM
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12 is right in that Relson thinks extremely highly of Ryron and Rener's ability. He's told me personally, and if he didn't, he wouldn't have sent Rhalan there. I wouldn't necessarily take it as Relson didn't have equal ability to teach Rhalan, since sometimes coaching your own son is difficult and sending him to a new environment is beneficial too.

As far as Rickson, Relson, and Ryron-Rener have all developed their unique based on the jiujitsu they learend from Helio.

There are mainy stylistic differences (as well as similiarities) between Relson and Ryron-Rener. One main one is that Relson incorporates more striking techniques from every position (side control bottom, guard bottom) than I've seen Ryron-Rener do/teach. Relson also incorporates more specific grips utilizing the gi. Relson also never plays "newer" sport guards at all, while Ryron-Rener have incorporated some sport guards such as butterfly guard into their teaching.

Obviously, there are many similarities as well.
1/31/13 7:52 AM
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LCSULLA
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FatBuddha - 12 is right in that Relson thinks extremely highly of Ryron and Rener's ability. He's told me personally, and if he didn't, he wouldn't have sent Rhalan there. I wouldn't necessarily take it as Relson didn't have equal ability to teach Rhalan, since sometimes coaching your own son is difficult and sending him to a new environment is beneficial too.

As far as Rickson, Relson, and Ryron-Rener have all developed their unique based on the jiujitsu they learend from Helio.

There are mainy stylistic differences (as well as similiarities) between Relson and Ryron-Rener. One main one is that Relson incorporates more striking techniques from every position (side control bottom, guard bottom) than I've seen Ryron-Rener do/teach. Relson also incorporates more specific grips utilizing the gi. Relson also never plays "newer" sport guards at all, while Ryron-Rener have incorporated some sport guards such as butterfly guard into their teaching.

Obviously, there are many similarities as well.

Thanks FB...thats excatly what I was looking for.

A quick question: so Relson only uses closed guard, and...?
1/31/13 3:10 PM
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biggator
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relson has amazing street fight gjj and stories. if you ever get the chance let him teach you something and listen to his stories.

someone was thinking about compiling his unique techs and making them avalible. hope that happens someday.
1/31/13 5:56 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Relson likes the tripod open guard: right hand in the collar DEEP, left foot on the guy's right hip, left hand on the guy's right pants cuff. He's got a big sweeping and triangle game from there, plus it transitions to and from closed guard seamlessly.

Like others said, no butterfly, spider, DLR, etc. He will teach you to pass these guards, but not play them.
1/31/13 7:46 PM
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markus
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The Mat Pimp - I do. I can teach them in his format, or in a reorganized curriculum which I have developed, showing the same techniques in alternate groupings.


Reorganized...thats the word i was looking for. ryron and rener have reorganized helios original 40 lessons.

before he retired did relson still teach the original 40 lessons?

1/31/13 7:55 PM
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kulprt
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Relson style is aggressive. He goes for the finish. Not much playing around. Why sweep when you can submit. Always aware of strikes both defending and giving.
Plus Relson gets his red belt in March. Phone Post
1/31/13 8:14 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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markus - 
The Mat Pimp - I do. I can teach them in his format, or in a reorganized curriculum which I have developed, showing the same techniques in alternate groupings.


Reorganized...thats the word i was looking for. ryron and rener have reorganized helios original 40 lessons.

before he retired did relson still teach the original 40 lessons?


FRAT (short answer: no)

Not really. He could teach the self defense techniques from the 40 lessons in his sleep, but he wouldn't necessarily teach them in the original 40 lesson order. Relson always focused his teaching, in the years I was around him, on sport jiu-jitsu and his own street fighting system which he taught on Tuesday and Thursday "t-shirt classes". Rash guards were for surfing, haha.

The original 40 lessons were meant to serve as an introduction to jiu-jitsu that would be both interesting and comprehensive. The lessons succeed in this regard, but there are certain drawbacks.

First, they were designed to be taught one-on-one in private lessons with a highly trained instructor certified by GM Helio Gracie. If you don't have that, there will be holes in the techniques and their interrelatedness won't be clear.

Second, because they were done in a specific order with a specific student, there wasn't a possibility of a student not being exposed to certain techniques because he had to go through all of them and in order. With group classes, where people show up when they want, there's the problem that they learn one headlock escape and not the next. This creates problems. For example, club defenses are scattered through the course, but to me it makes more sense to teach them consecutively so that people can see how they fit together.

Third, they make no attempt to be sport-safe or sport-legal, and involve a lot of techniques which involve weapons and can result in injury if done at full power. These are the types of techniques which Kano removed from Judo, but which the Gracies were happy to include in their system.

So when Relson taught self defense techniques, he taught them in the order that he thought was appropriate, or in response to a student's question and not in the original 40 lesson order. After his father passed away, I think that Relson has begun to lay more emphasis on GM Helio's original teachings and focus on self-defense jiu-jitsu and has asked that all of his academies teach this material. At our academy, we have three black belts that focus on it, the others focus on MMA and sport jiujitsu. When I teach the SD curriculum, the techniques are pure GJJ but we do it in a scenario-based order.
1/31/13 8:42 PM
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FatBuddha
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LCSULLA - 
FatBuddha - 12 is right in that Relson thinks extremely highly of Ryron and Rener's ability. He's told me personally, and if he didn't, he wouldn't have sent Rhalan there. I wouldn't necessarily take it as Relson didn't have equal ability to teach Rhalan, since sometimes coaching your own son is difficult and sending him to a new environment is beneficial too.

As far as Rickson, Relson, and Ryron-Rener have all developed their unique based on the jiujitsu they learend from Helio.

There are mainy stylistic differences (as well as similiarities) between Relson and Ryron-Rener. One main one is that Relson incorporates more striking techniques from every position (side control bottom, guard bottom) than I've seen Ryron-Rener do/teach. Relson also incorporates more specific grips utilizing the gi. Relson also never plays "newer" sport guards at all, while Ryron-Rener have incorporated some sport guards such as butterfly guard into their teaching.

Obviously, there are many similarities as well.

Thanks FB...thats excatly what I was looking for.

A quick question: so Relson only uses closed guard, and...?

For self defense/street, Relson uses what is similar to Ryron-Rener's Phase 1, Phase 1.5, and Phase 2. Relson really likes the foot on the hip. He throws some differences in there like more circle knees (striking technique), etc. He really likes to utilize 1 or both feet on the opponent's hips in different ways.

As far as more sport jj, he has a series of sweeps that all link together in a sequence of 10 I believe. They begin wtih the right hand deep in the collar.

As I believe Matt Pimp mentioned above, he shows you why all those new guards aren't good for the street/self defense (or maybe even in his view sport jj) and how to counter them.

His is fundamental and deadly.

I can't promise anything, but I'll see him the day after tomorrow if you have any questions
1/31/13 9:11 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Mat Pimp.....Ahhhh yes, Tuesday and Thursday "t-shirt classes" sometimes referred to as "Vale Tudo" class......with gi thrown in occasionally because everybody had gis when training before class started. That class originally started out as a small semi-private class in '95 or '96 @UH run by Scott. We all got our blue belts training gi, then transitioned to "t-shirt" (Kaimuki dojo). We gained a class clown later on ~98, "Mr Recon" Master Brian.....LOL! I miss that academy!



Mat Pimp wrote, "So when Relson taught self defense techniques, he taught them in the order that he thought was appropriate, or in response to a student's question and not in the original 40 lesson order."

That was Relson's method IME......"Questions anybody" was how he'd start a class many times. or we'd start somewhere and as class progressed he'd link things together as things played out or questions came up.
2/1/13 12:49 AM
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graciesrule
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I watched Grandmaster Mansur's self defense dvds and I noticed he altered(tweaked) some of Helio's self defense moves, has Relson dones this?
2/1/13 1:48 AM
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FatBuddha
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graciesrule - I watched Grandmaster Mansur's self defense dvds and I noticed he altered(tweaked) some of Helio's self defense moves, has Relson dones this?

Relson has stayed pretty close to GM Helio's original standing self defense move technique, although he has added some additional gun, knife, and stick defenses. For instance, for my black belt test with Relson I had to respond in real time to execute 16 gun disarms and 10 knife disarms.
2/1/13 2:16 AM
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Team Python
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graciesrule - I watched Grandmaster Mansur's self defense dvds and I noticed he altered(tweaked) some of Helio's self defense moves, has Relson dones this?

I find his style of Jiu-Jitsu a little different. I bought one of his books and I only viewed it a few times.
2/1/13 7:31 AM
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LCSULLA
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Edited: 02/01/13 8:11 AM
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FatBuddha - graciesrule - I watched Grandmaster Mansur's self defense dvds and I noticed he altered(tweaked) some of Helio's self defense moves, has Relson dones this? Relson has stayed pretty close to GM Helio's original standing self defense move technique, although he has added some additional gun, knife, and stick defenses. For instance, for my black belt test with Relson I had to respond in real time to execute 16 gun disarms and 10 knife disarms

FB...Is that standard for all his BB testing? Does it progress through the belts: Blue/4 Gun disarms, Purple/6 gun disarms and etc?

Do you teach these as well?

Oh and thanks again!

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