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2/4/13 1:35 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Edited: 02/04/13 1:56 PM
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Guys can't read here? he said "It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in."

I corrected this data. Got it aj? Read the post

I do 100 percent agree with your last point though. KM can be mixed with other MA's and one could compete actively in those others.
2/4/13 2:24 PM
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Takedown
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Edited: 02/04/13 2:38 PM
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OC- IIRC, KM is actually an offshoot of the parent art Kapap. KM's "sibling" art is Hisardut, which, IMO, seems to be more of a complete art as it teaches both urban & environmental survival.

<br /><br />In any case, as others have mentioned, there are good & bad instructors, so it can't be stressed enough to verify the instructor's background. As an example, ATA Tae-Kwon-Do caught a lot of flack for its flawed "self-defense" curriculum, which basically consisted of one & two-step drills against a non-resisting opponent. Further, ATA was/is known for teaching point-fighting vs. full contact taught in WTF schools. So, ATA sent its instructors en masse to KM headquarters on both east & west coasts of the U.S. to get real world experience in self-defense. When they returned to their schools, they conveniently re-named their self-defense system as "ATA Combatives" without giving any credit to KM. From what I recall, this created a stir w/KM headquarters & you eventually began seeing ATA schools flying a "Certified KM school" banner as a result.

<br /><br />I actually checked out a KM class several years ago at a Karate school where the instructors had trained at & were certified by the L.A. Headquarters. The classes emphasized stress/responsive training (escaping from underneath a dogpile of 6-10 people, response to being grabbed or pushed from behind w/eyes closed). Classes were composed of those in their 20's to those in their 60s.

<br /><br />The instructors, at least at the outset, ran some decent classes. Unfortunately, they became more interested on cashing in on the marketability of KM & who they were going to party with that weekend, and this spilled into how they ran their KM program. Fortunately they did month-to-month training, so I was able to stop training there without any hassle.
2/4/13 2:37 PM
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jerky66
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Edited: 02/04/13 2:39 PM
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If you are never able to apply what you learn at full speed or in a real situation I can’t see how you ever expect it to work, period.

Krav is a concept that is taught to Israeli soldiers in a war zone where they use it against terrorist. Then you transfer those techniques to an American suburb with no combat or opportunity to apply em and expect them to work?

I am not a BJJ fan boy as referenced above although I do train in it. I just think it could work because of the pace you can practice it at. Same applies to judo, boxing, muay thai, wrestling, MMA etc.

If you are worried about your safety buy a gun and train in that.
2/4/13 4:39 PM
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AndrewJitsu
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I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
2/4/13 4:45 PM
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xakx
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ttt
2/4/13 4:49 PM
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PK618
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Guys who have trained Krav: did you spar?

I would think that the pressure testing of Boxing/Muay Thai/Judo/Wrestling/BJJ/Sambo etc would be important if you expect to actually use your martial art in a high-stress situation.

I mean, unless you practice your groin strikes or throat punches against a legitimately non compliant aggressor (uke, sparing partner, etc) it seems to me you don't actually know how to use the technique, nor would you have the instincts down to use it.

That is my hangup with Krav, I don't know how they handle alive training. I figure if you can knock out a decent boxer, or take down a decent wrestler, or submit a decent BJJ practitioner, you should have little trouble with drunky Mc Dumbass.
2/4/13 4:54 PM
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Lazer MMA
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PrisonMattressPuncher - 
Lazer MMA - 
PrisonMattressPuncher - 

Krav Maga has a huge marketing machine behind. Where I think it is 'better' than most other martial arts practiced by the general populace, is in its aggressive, proactive mindset. It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in.

The bigggest roblem I have with it is that it is really marketed to women, and it gives all these Krav Maga soccer moms a false sense of confidence, like they are studying the best thing since sliced bread. It also tends to make them feel like "experts" on fighting and self-defense.



"It incorporates Western boxing punches, Karate kicks and knees, Greco-Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu ground fighting, Jiu-jitsu throws and grappling, and most importantly, “bursting,” adapted from Wing Chun. This is a simultaneous defense/attack: instead of blocking an attack and then delivering a response, you block the attack and deliver a response at the same time, i. e., block with the left arm and push forward with the legs, striking with the right fist to the throat, all simultaneously.

Also stressed are attacks to vulnerable body parts: the eyes, throat, and groin. Attackers can expect testicular ruptures. Emphasis is also placed on disarming attackers with both knives and handguns, and turning these weapons on the attacker. It also exclusively trains hand-eye coordination, until defense becomes second nature and does not require thought."

Rated as the top form of self defense
http://listverse.com/2010/05/15/top-10-martial-arts-for-self-defense/

"When it comes to self defense Krav Maga is the SHIT! There are very few martial arts better suited to defend yourself from an attacker who may be threatening you with a knife or gun. Great for women looking to protect themselves from rape or other attacks, it emphasizes devastating attacks to the opponent’s vital areas, such as the groin and eyes, and encourages headbutts and the use of any available objects as weapons. This martial art features a three-step approach: Deal with the immediate threat, prevent the attacker from mounting a second offensive and then neutralize him.

"Krav Maga is a military hand-to-hand system developed in Isreal and used by various Israeli Security Forces, which assumes no quarter will be given, and emphasizes maximum threat nuetralization in a “real life” context."

Rated #3 here http://thesegoto11.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/top-eleven-best-self-defence-martial-arts/

Um, you were saying boss?

Um, what I was saying bss,

I studied it a while ago. All that "mixing" stuff is BS. IT is most self-defense manouevers with some boxey/kicky/kneey kinda stuff thrown together. LOL You will not be anywhere proficent in "Grec Roman" by studying the standard Krav Maga. All that mixing nonsense it simply marketing and hype. Sure, ANY style can claim that they mix "karate" because they kick, etc. The reality is that it is most prearranged responses, fairly impractical (for the average person studying self-defense, simultaneous strike n' block, etc) beyond the basics. Sure there is some good stuff, and a couple good disarms for guns (i find the knife defense stuff typical/no better than anything else). I simply do not give two craps about what Special Forces stud instrucrtor can do. Come at some Krav Maga soccer mom with a live blade and she is simply, for the most part, not going to do any of that bullshit.



LOL, at saying the MA is bogus. Providing no source (like I do) to back up the claim at all. If anything the thread shows the school chosen is what counts here IMO.
2/4/13 5:05 PM
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ReneH
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I'd find a reputable Paul Vunak affiliated instructor, a guy that that has trained with Vunak for some years.
2/4/13 6:23 PM
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OCMikelob
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BTR - In what state do you live? There are legit guys and then the others. WIth the legit guys Krav Maga is great for self defense, though I wouldn't start it as an intro to MMA. The moves are basic and simple and designed to be learned and absorbed quickly (thus, why perfect for the short duration of a boot camp).

The better teachers don't just teach moves and technique but mentality for real life situations. I was mugged once and though I had also trained some Muay Thai and BJJ, it was the KM that instantly came to mind and my instincts kicked in to defend myself well. I was calm and collected (not gonna lie - I was scared but still able to control myself to deal with the situation). It was two guys and the things that were drilled into my head about multiple attackers etc really helped. That is something you WILL NOT learn in boxing, grappling, etc...

In San Fancisco there's a great KM school which also has grappling and maybe BJJ classes on the side for fun. There's one or two solid teachers in the NY/NJ area too.
I live in SoCal...LA area Phone Post
2/4/13 6:24 PM
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OCMikelob
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AndrewJitsu - I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
I appreciate it Phone Post
2/4/13 6:25 PM
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OCMikelob
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ReneH - I'd find a reputable Paul Vunak affiliated instructor, a guy that that has trained with Vunak for some years.
I'll keep that in mind...thanks alot! Phone Post
2/4/13 6:54 PM
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FJJ828
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KM is kinda like JKD Concepts, Israeli style. Meaning that what it looks like today looks quite different than what it looked like even ten years ago. What KM people used to scoff at, is now KM and apparently was part of KM all along... plus groin kicks of course.

2/4/13 7:53 PM
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AndrewJitsu
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OCMikelob -
AndrewJitsu - I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
I appreciate it Phone Post
I definitely dig the weapon stuff more than anything. That's just me tho. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:13 AM
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JoeVIP
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Edited: 02/05/13 11:15 AM
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So I went to my first Krav Maga class last night. The place was Nashville Krav Maga and it is a Krav Maga Worldwide gym. First everyone was super nice. Nobody had a tough guy attitude or was rude.

The class I went through was there basic lvl 1 class. They covered fighting stance, foot work, push kick, Straight punches "jab and cross" and a self defense technique against a head lock. Every single thing they went over was the exact same thing I have taught people for years. Everything was correct. The only difference was their jab is not a set up punch. They throw it like Bas Rutton with power and mean intentions. Given they are focused on self defense and not sport I can see why.

Also there defense against the head lock is way better then any I learned in BJJ. And oddly enough was one I had taught myself and never saw anywhere else. They also were really big on being physically fit. The class was not like a cardio kickboxing class. It was more like a Thia class. They had a seperate class just for strength and conditioning.

It was reasonably priced at $140 a month or $20 drop in for a day. Which depending on where you are from isn't a bad price at all. They do have year contracts but I understand that and believe businesses like martial arts schools should have them.

My only complaint is they let people where there shoes all over the mats. And all I could think about was how gross that is.

Over all I was very happy with it and will go back agian thursday to check out my second free class. One other thing I took away from it is they are not going to make you an expert in Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling or Judo. So if you are looking to compete or compete in sport grappling, striking or mma you need to look somewhere else. This is all about real world self defense.
2/5/13 11:36 AM
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Large Intestine
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Edited: 02/05/13 11:38 AM
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Cool, sounds pretty good. Thanks for the report, Joe, this thread is really rekindling my interest. Let us know how class 2 goes and if they require you to wear Krav gear from head to toe.
2/5/13 11:47 AM
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OCMikelob
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JoeVIP - So I went to my first Krav Maga class last night. The place was Nashville Krav Maga and it is a Krav Maga Worldwide gym. First everyone was super nice. Nobody had a tough guy attitude or was rude.

The class I went through was there basic lvl 1 class. They covered fighting stance, foot work, push kick, Straight punches "jab and cross" and a self defense technique against a head lock. Every single thing they went over was the exact same thing I have taught people for years. Everything was correct. The only difference was their jab is not a set up punch. They throw it like Bas Rutton with power and mean intentions. Given they are focused on self defense and not sport I can see why.

Also there defense against the head lock is way better then any I learned in BJJ. And oddly enough was one I had taught myself and never saw anywhere else. They also were really big on being physically fit. The class was not like a cardio kickboxing class. It was more like a Thia class. They had a seperate class just for strength and conditioning.

It was reasonably priced at $140 a month or $20 drop in for a day. Which depending on where you are from isn't a bad price at all. They do have year contracts but I understand that and believe businesses like martial arts schools should have them.

My only complaint is they let people where there shoes all over the mats. And all I could think about was how gross that is.

Over all I was very happy with it and will go back agian thursday to check out my second free class. One other thing I took away from it is they are not going to make you an expert in Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling or Judo. So if you are looking to compete or compete in sport grappling, striking or mma you need to look somewhere else. This is all about real world self defense.
Thanks for the report back Joe. Sounds good. Let us know how the 2nd one goes. Phone Post
2/5/13 10:21 PM
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JoeVIP
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Large, they sell stuff but don't require you to wear it. There were people there in all types of clothes. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:04 PM
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Large Intestine
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Cool. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:07 PM
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RoyalRailer
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In also
2/5/13 11:28 PM
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Achilles is the GOAT
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I traned km for about a year with the Australian air force (I'm not in the air force, just tranned with them)

Pros
Your shins and forearms will get strong after all the defending techniques you'll learn
You'll gain technical knowledge of what to look for in a fight eg who to hit first, escape routes, what to use
You'll get confidence. Km is about fighting people in groups and with weapons. If its one on one, that's a walk in the park
Your jiujitsu will improve after working on group attacks and escapes

Cons
It will do horrible for your stand up technique
You'll feel like you've broken your forearms and shins after the first few workouts

I really enjoyed it, but every time I get in trouble or think of what id do in a situation now, I think of km to work out what to do first to be on the front foot, then id go to my wrestling and jiujitsu to stay safe Phone Post
2/15/13 11:51 PM
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Large Intestine
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KM Worldwide is opening a new gym a couple miles from my house, and they're offering all of their classes for free until they have all of their equipment fully installed. Anybody that's interested in the Dallas area should check out kravmagadfw.com for details. I registered for the first two freebies on the 25th and 27th. I'm stoked. Phone Post
2/17/13 10:58 AM
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OCMikelob
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Wish I was in the Dallas area...have fun and if you get a chance, please post your experience. The more KM stories, the better. Good luck! Phone Post
2/20/13 1:09 PM
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Large Intestine
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Edited: 02/20/13 1:12 PM
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Well I was wrong. I just spoke with Jack Bolowskie, founder and head instructor at KravMagaDFW, and he tells me he started with Krav Maga Worldwide about 15 or so years ago, but a few years back he left to follow his teacher, John Whitman, who was forming Krav Maga Alliance. So it's Krav Maga Alliance now. Impressive lineage, I must say.

www.kravmagaalliance.com
2/27/13 11:51 PM
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Large Intestine
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I attended my first class tonight. Man, that was a workout. I'll try to remember it and describe it as best I can.

We warmed up by jogging around the room with hands up, then moving sideways around the room with hands up, one way and then the other, then jumping jacks, then squats. Then we moved immediately into partnering up and slap-boxing, trying to slap your partners shoulders and prevent them from doing the same to you. Then the same thing, but trying to touch your partners knees. Then trying to step on your partners feet. Then free-for-all, trying to step on the feet of anyone in the room without getting stepped on. All of that was about 15 minutes.

At that point I was exhausted, and mercifully we did some stretching, loosening up.

Then we learned the basic fighting stance, and moving forward and backward, using proper footwork.

Then we practiced forward elbow strikes, putting the hips into it. We partnered up to throw elbows into pads, taking turns holding the pads.

Then we learned a downward elbow strike to the back of the head of an attacker lunging at you with his head down, partnered up, practiced dropping the elbow onto a pad with a twist of the hips, popping back up.

Next we learned throwing knees, partnered up, threw knees into bags, taking turns...

Then taking turns throwing as many knees into the pads as we could, as fast as we could.

By that point I didn't think I could go on any longer. I was dizzy, I could barely think straight or understand instructions...

Then we learned what I guess would be called a takedown defense, we partnered up and practiced defending against a tackle/takedown sort of thing.

Next we practiced the first three parts of the 360 degree defense, and then partnered up and practiced defending against big looping overhand punches.

Then we learned a defense against someone lunging at you with a knife, gaining control of the arm and neck, practiced with a partner...

I think that's most of it, I may be forgetting a thing or two. All in all it was about an hour, maybe an hour and fifteen.

But anyway, like I said, they're giving these classes for free right now while they're still getting the facility set up, so it was kind of an introductory session to give newcomers an idea of what Krav is about.

It was exhausting. I was soaked in sweat, my throat was sore from huffing and puffing. But I think I learned a thing or two, and it was fun. I'll be going to the rest of the free classes this week and next, I'm not sure how much longer they'll last after that. But I'll be signing up to pay when the time comes.

I give it a thumbs up.
2/28/13 1:11 AM
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burner22
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^ that actually sounds prettyawesome Phone Post

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