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2/4/13 12:54 PM
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CaptainBurma
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In a word...YES! but you have to find the right school. I've traned in a bunch of stuff, since I was 8 years old...the flowery bs, as well as mma, muay thai, bjj, judo, kail...etc....AND Krav...I've just gotten back to bouncing in shitty chinatown nightclubs, where I'm the only security. I've had to disarm 2 guns, & a knife, as well as breaking up& sometimes getting in an average of 2 fights per night...in the past 8 months or so...& Krav techniques work...I see Krav as icing on the cake...get your base in a realistic striking art (boxing, muay thai), be proficient in grappling, familiarize yourself with sticks, knives, & guns, stay in shape & top it off with Krav...you should be good for most self defense scenarios...(haven't read the rest of thread)

2/4/13 1:04 PM
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ajl416az
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IMO, boxing is the best standup for self-defense because its simple and low risk.
you shouldn't stand on one leg in an environment where the opponent could be drunk and stumble into you, or you could be surrounded by people or on unsafe footing.
plus, punches are faster then kicks and knees, and you can throw them while running away

boxing and wrestling/judo is legitimately all you need if you want to learn how to beat anyone 1 on 1.
be able to throw hands on the outside, and throw him if he grabs you, and nobody without training can f with you

Well said! That's an interesting perspective that I would have never thought about. I would think there's gotta be some humble KM'ers that are willing and ready to efficiently handle business at the drop of a dime if needed, but I could be wrong. I see jerky agrees with what you said, so I'm sure you're point is very valid. Can anyone else speak on this?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your point


what he is saying is that because Krav Maga guys don't typically get beat up and humbled in the gym, and it leads to overconfidence and the belief that you are actually the toughest guy around

when the toughest guy around would be someone who competes, because he is competing against trained killers, instead of learning how to totally overwhelm and overpower guys that don't know how to fight, which is 99% of the people who start fights
2/4/13 1:11 PM
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OCMikelob
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ajl416az - IMO, boxing is the best standup for self-defense because its simple and low risk.
you shouldn't stand on one leg in an environment where the opponent could be drunk and stumble into you, or you could be surrounded by people or on unsafe footing.
plus, punches are faster then kicks and knees, and you can throw them while running away

boxing and wrestling/judo is legitimately all you need if you want to learn how to beat anyone 1 on 1.
be able to throw hands on the outside, and throw him if he grabs you, and nobody without training can f with you

Well said! That's an interesting perspective that I would have never thought about. I would think there's gotta be some humble KM'ers that are willing and ready to efficiently handle business at the drop of a dime if needed, but I could be wrong. I see jerky agrees with what you said, so I'm sure you're point is very valid. Can anyone else speak on this?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your point


what he is saying is that because Krav Maga guys don't typically get beat up and humbled in the gym, and it leads to overconfidence and the belief that you are actually the toughest guy around

when the toughest guy around would be someone who competes, because he is competing against trained killers, instead of learning how to totally overwhelm and overpower guys that don't know how to fight, which is 99% of the people who start fights
Overconfidence, that makes sense! Phone Post
2/4/13 1:12 PM
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OCMikelob
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JoeVIP -
OCMikelob -  Joe, are you in SoCal? Just wondering which dojo you're going to if in the area. If not, disregard. But, I'm also curious how much are you paying per month and how often are your classes?

Have fun! Phone Post

I'm in Nashville. I went to a gun range this weekend and right next door to it was Nashville Krav Maga. I have no idea what they charge yet I'll let you know after my 2 free classes and there sales pitch. I do know it's a Krav Maga worldwide place. I'll post my thoughts after tonight.
Lookin forward to hear about it Phone Post
2/4/13 1:21 PM
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ajl416az
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Lazer MMA - 
PrisonMattressPuncher - 

Krav Maga has a huge marketing machine behind. Where I think it is 'better' than most other martial arts practiced by the general populace, is in its aggressive, proactive mindset. It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in.

The bigggest roblem I have with it is that it is really marketed to women, and it gives all these Krav Maga soccer moms a false sense of confidence, like they are studying the best thing since sliced bread. It also tends to make them feel like "experts" on fighting and self-defense.



"It incorporates Western boxing punches, Karate kicks and knees, Greco-Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu ground fighting, Jiu-jitsu throws and grappling, and most importantly, “bursting,” adapted from Wing Chun. This is a simultaneous defense/attack: instead of blocking an attack and then delivering a response, you block the attack and deliver a response at the same time, i. e., block with the left arm and push forward with the legs, striking with the right fist to the throat, all simultaneously.

Also stressed are attacks to vulnerable body parts: the eyes, throat, and groin. Attackers can expect testicular ruptures. Emphasis is also placed on disarming attackers with both knives and handguns, and turning these weapons on the attacker. It also exclusively trains hand-eye coordination, until defense becomes second nature and does not require thought."

Rated as the top form of self defense
http://listverse.com/2010/05/15/top-10-martial-arts-for-self-defense/

"When it comes to self defense Krav Maga is the SHIT! There are very few martial arts better suited to defend yourself from an attacker who may be threatening you with a knife or gun. Great for women looking to protect themselves from rape or other attacks, it emphasizes devastating attacks to the opponent’s vital areas, such as the groin and eyes, and encourages headbutts and the use of any available objects as weapons. This martial art features a three-step approach: Deal with the immediate threat, prevent the attacker from mounting a second offensive and then neutralize him.

"Krav Maga is a military hand-to-hand system developed in Isreal and used by various Israeli Security Forces, which assumes no quarter will be given, and emphasizes maximum threat nuetralization in a “real life” context."

Rated #3 here http://thesegoto11.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/top-eleven-best-self-defence-martial-arts/

Um, you were saying boss?

lol so your reponse to him saying there is a huge amount of marketing is to repeat marketing material?


the problem with Krav Maga is that the people who don't know how to fight, which is the people the art is aimed at, are totally unable to tell if the school they are at is for real

so its really easy to end up with a room full of soft geeks talking about 'reality' and how legit this stuff is in the street, when the reality is that they couldn't beat up a 16 year old high school bully that plays varsity football


if you haven't been stabbed or cut, don't talk to me about realistic knife defense.

and if you can't get in a ring with someone of similar size and skill, and stop him from hurting you when he isn't going 100%, you will not be able to stop anyone who actually wants to hurt you


its way easier to spaz out in a room with cooperative, untrained individuals, then it is to fight trained killers who want to beat you
only competition breeds real high level competence.
whether its judo, wrestling, boxing, mma, the dog brothers, whatever. training to beat people who are actually tough, is how you get really tough.
2/4/13 1:35 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Edited: 02/04/13 1:56 PM
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Guys can't read here? he said "It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in."

I corrected this data. Got it aj? Read the post

I do 100 percent agree with your last point though. KM can be mixed with other MA's and one could compete actively in those others.
2/4/13 2:24 PM
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Takedown
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OC- IIRC, KM is actually an offshoot of the parent art Kapap. KM's "sibling" art is Hisardut, which, IMO, seems to be more of a complete art as it teaches both urban & environmental survival.

<br /><br />In any case, as others have mentioned, there are good & bad instructors, so it can't be stressed enough to verify the instructor's background. As an example, ATA Tae-Kwon-Do caught a lot of flack for its flawed "self-defense" curriculum, which basically consisted of one & two-step drills against a non-resisting opponent. Further, ATA was/is known for teaching point-fighting vs. full contact taught in WTF schools. So, ATA sent its instructors en masse to KM headquarters on both east & west coasts of the U.S. to get real world experience in self-defense. When they returned to their schools, they conveniently re-named their self-defense system as "ATA Combatives" without giving any credit to KM. From what I recall, this created a stir w/KM headquarters & you eventually began seeing ATA schools flying a "Certified KM school" banner as a result.

<br /><br />I actually checked out a KM class several years ago at a Karate school where the instructors had trained at & were certified by the L.A. Headquarters. The classes emphasized stress/responsive training (escaping from underneath a dogpile of 6-10 people, response to being grabbed or pushed from behind w/eyes closed). Classes were composed of those in their 20's to those in their 60s.

<br /><br />The instructors, at least at the outset, ran some decent classes. Unfortunately, they became more interested on cashing in on the marketability of KM & who they were going to party with that weekend, and this spilled into how they ran their KM program. Fortunately they did month-to-month training, so I was able to stop training there without any hassle.
2/4/13 2:37 PM
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jerky66
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Edited: 02/04/13 2:39 PM
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If you are never able to apply what you learn at full speed or in a real situation I can’t see how you ever expect it to work, period.

Krav is a concept that is taught to Israeli soldiers in a war zone where they use it against terrorist. Then you transfer those techniques to an American suburb with no combat or opportunity to apply em and expect them to work?

I am not a BJJ fan boy as referenced above although I do train in it. I just think it could work because of the pace you can practice it at. Same applies to judo, boxing, muay thai, wrestling, MMA etc.

If you are worried about your safety buy a gun and train in that.
2/4/13 3:50 PM
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Herman Munster
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jerky66 - If you are never able to apply what you learn at full speed or in a real situation I can’t see how you ever expect it to work, period.

Krav is a concept that is taught to Israeli soldiers in a war zone where they use it against terrorist. Then you transfer those techniques to an American suburb with no combat or opportunity to apply em and expect them to work?

I am not a BJJ fan boy as referenced above although I do train in it. I just think it could work because of the pace you can practice it at. Same applies to judo, boxing, muay thai, wrestling, MMA etc.

If you are worried about your safety buy a gun and train in that.

If we are talking about solely training something because it can be trained at "full speed"'Boxing, Muay Thai, etc, are designed for sport.  I've had my fun training those arts to. But, you can only train those arts at full speed for so long, that if you aren't training them to be competitive in sport, but rather to be a tough guy in the street, you are an idiot.  You get to a point in life where you have a profession that isn't fighting, you are never going to be a pro fighter, you have bills to pay, a livelihood to protect, maybe a family to go along with it all, and you want to train boxing and Muay Thai at full speed with young hungry lions, aspiring to maybe be pro or amature fighters.  To step in and spar on a regular basis and subject your brain to unnecessary head trauma and or concussions, and your body to whatever other possible injuries, all to be able to handle yourself in street?  That's a real great pay off.  Bjj is better than those arts for the body when sport is not necessarily your motivation, but also a ground based art, absolutely has its own limitations for the street when other variables enter into the equation, which they most always do on the street.  A real legit Krav Maga guy will rip off your Bjj blue belts balls and feed them to him for breakfast, lunch, and then when digested, for dinner to.

Again, had my fun with Muay Thai, and a little bit of grappling, and have never had any real interest to train Krav Maga before recently getting the chance to train in it, but now I absolutely can see value and substance to training it, especially when you can add it to an already existing base, and are just looking to keep active in an art, but not necessarily looking to be competitive with an art... but for me it's all mute anyways, because the price to train Krav Maga where I am is not in my budget, therefore not in my interest.

 

 

 

2/4/13 4:24 PM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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Lazer MMA - 
PrisonMattressPuncher - 

Krav Maga has a huge marketing machine behind. Where I think it is 'better' than most other martial arts practiced by the general populace, is in its aggressive, proactive mindset. It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in.

The bigggest roblem I have with it is that it is really marketed to women, and it gives all these Krav Maga soccer moms a false sense of confidence, like they are studying the best thing since sliced bread. It also tends to make them feel like "experts" on fighting and self-defense.



"It incorporates Western boxing punches, Karate kicks and knees, Greco-Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu ground fighting, Jiu-jitsu throws and grappling, and most importantly, “bursting,” adapted from Wing Chun. This is a simultaneous defense/attack: instead of blocking an attack and then delivering a response, you block the attack and deliver a response at the same time, i. e., block with the left arm and push forward with the legs, striking with the right fist to the throat, all simultaneously.

Also stressed are attacks to vulnerable body parts: the eyes, throat, and groin. Attackers can expect testicular ruptures. Emphasis is also placed on disarming attackers with both knives and handguns, and turning these weapons on the attacker. It also exclusively trains hand-eye coordination, until defense becomes second nature and does not require thought."

Rated as the top form of self defense
http://listverse.com/2010/05/15/top-10-martial-arts-for-self-defense/

"When it comes to self defense Krav Maga is the SHIT! There are very few martial arts better suited to defend yourself from an attacker who may be threatening you with a knife or gun. Great for women looking to protect themselves from rape or other attacks, it emphasizes devastating attacks to the opponent’s vital areas, such as the groin and eyes, and encourages headbutts and the use of any available objects as weapons. This martial art features a three-step approach: Deal with the immediate threat, prevent the attacker from mounting a second offensive and then neutralize him.

"Krav Maga is a military hand-to-hand system developed in Isreal and used by various Israeli Security Forces, which assumes no quarter will be given, and emphasizes maximum threat nuetralization in a “real life” context."

Rated #3 here http://thesegoto11.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/top-eleven-best-self-defence-martial-arts/

Um, you were saying boss?

Um, what I was saying bss,

I studied it a while ago. All that "mixing" stuff is BS. IT is most self-defense manouevers with some boxey/kicky/kneey kinda stuff thrown together. LOL You will not be anywhere proficent in "Grec Roman" by studying the standard Krav Maga. All that mixing nonsense it simply marketing and hype. Sure, ANY style can claim that they mix "karate" because they kick, etc. The reality is that it is most prearranged responses, fairly impractical (for the average person studying self-defense, simultaneous strike n' block, etc) beyond the basics. Sure there is some good stuff, and a couple good disarms for guns (i find the knife defense stuff typical/no better than anything else). I simply do not give two craps about what Special Forces stud instrucrtor can do. Come at some Krav Maga soccer mom with a live blade and she is simply, for the most part, not going to do any of that bullshit.

2/4/13 4:39 PM
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AndrewJitsu
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I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
2/4/13 4:45 PM
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xakx
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2/4/13 4:49 PM
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PK618
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Guys who have trained Krav: did you spar?

I would think that the pressure testing of Boxing/Muay Thai/Judo/Wrestling/BJJ/Sambo etc would be important if you expect to actually use your martial art in a high-stress situation.

I mean, unless you practice your groin strikes or throat punches against a legitimately non compliant aggressor (uke, sparing partner, etc) it seems to me you don't actually know how to use the technique, nor would you have the instincts down to use it.

That is my hangup with Krav, I don't know how they handle alive training. I figure if you can knock out a decent boxer, or take down a decent wrestler, or submit a decent BJJ practitioner, you should have little trouble with drunky Mc Dumbass.
2/4/13 4:54 PM
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Lazer MMA
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PrisonMattressPuncher - 
Lazer MMA - 
PrisonMattressPuncher - 

Krav Maga has a huge marketing machine behind. Where I think it is 'better' than most other martial arts practiced by the general populace, is in its aggressive, proactive mindset. It has some fairly decent basic techniques but once you get beyond that, it is basically traditional Japanese stlye Jiu-jitsu with a few strikes thrown in.

The bigggest roblem I have with it is that it is really marketed to women, and it gives all these Krav Maga soccer moms a false sense of confidence, like they are studying the best thing since sliced bread. It also tends to make them feel like "experts" on fighting and self-defense.



"It incorporates Western boxing punches, Karate kicks and knees, Greco-Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu ground fighting, Jiu-jitsu throws and grappling, and most importantly, “bursting,” adapted from Wing Chun. This is a simultaneous defense/attack: instead of blocking an attack and then delivering a response, you block the attack and deliver a response at the same time, i. e., block with the left arm and push forward with the legs, striking with the right fist to the throat, all simultaneously.

Also stressed are attacks to vulnerable body parts: the eyes, throat, and groin. Attackers can expect testicular ruptures. Emphasis is also placed on disarming attackers with both knives and handguns, and turning these weapons on the attacker. It also exclusively trains hand-eye coordination, until defense becomes second nature and does not require thought."

Rated as the top form of self defense
http://listverse.com/2010/05/15/top-10-martial-arts-for-self-defense/

"When it comes to self defense Krav Maga is the SHIT! There are very few martial arts better suited to defend yourself from an attacker who may be threatening you with a knife or gun. Great for women looking to protect themselves from rape or other attacks, it emphasizes devastating attacks to the opponent’s vital areas, such as the groin and eyes, and encourages headbutts and the use of any available objects as weapons. This martial art features a three-step approach: Deal with the immediate threat, prevent the attacker from mounting a second offensive and then neutralize him.

"Krav Maga is a military hand-to-hand system developed in Isreal and used by various Israeli Security Forces, which assumes no quarter will be given, and emphasizes maximum threat nuetralization in a “real life” context."

Rated #3 here http://thesegoto11.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/top-eleven-best-self-defence-martial-arts/

Um, you were saying boss?

Um, what I was saying bss,

I studied it a while ago. All that "mixing" stuff is BS. IT is most self-defense manouevers with some boxey/kicky/kneey kinda stuff thrown together. LOL You will not be anywhere proficent in "Grec Roman" by studying the standard Krav Maga. All that mixing nonsense it simply marketing and hype. Sure, ANY style can claim that they mix "karate" because they kick, etc. The reality is that it is most prearranged responses, fairly impractical (for the average person studying self-defense, simultaneous strike n' block, etc) beyond the basics. Sure there is some good stuff, and a couple good disarms for guns (i find the knife defense stuff typical/no better than anything else). I simply do not give two craps about what Special Forces stud instrucrtor can do. Come at some Krav Maga soccer mom with a live blade and she is simply, for the most part, not going to do any of that bullshit.



LOL, at saying the MA is bogus. Providing no source (like I do) to back up the claim at all. If anything the thread shows the school chosen is what counts here IMO.
2/4/13 5:05 PM
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ReneH
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I'd find a reputable Paul Vunak affiliated instructor, a guy that that has trained with Vunak for some years.
2/4/13 6:23 PM
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OCMikelob
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BTR - In what state do you live? There are legit guys and then the others. WIth the legit guys Krav Maga is great for self defense, though I wouldn't start it as an intro to MMA. The moves are basic and simple and designed to be learned and absorbed quickly (thus, why perfect for the short duration of a boot camp).

The better teachers don't just teach moves and technique but mentality for real life situations. I was mugged once and though I had also trained some Muay Thai and BJJ, it was the KM that instantly came to mind and my instincts kicked in to defend myself well. I was calm and collected (not gonna lie - I was scared but still able to control myself to deal with the situation). It was two guys and the things that were drilled into my head about multiple attackers etc really helped. That is something you WILL NOT learn in boxing, grappling, etc...

In San Fancisco there's a great KM school which also has grappling and maybe BJJ classes on the side for fun. There's one or two solid teachers in the NY/NJ area too.
I live in SoCal...LA area Phone Post
2/4/13 6:24 PM
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OCMikelob
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AndrewJitsu - I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
I appreciate it Phone Post
2/4/13 6:25 PM
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OCMikelob
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ReneH - I'd find a reputable Paul Vunak affiliated instructor, a guy that that has trained with Vunak for some years.
I'll keep that in mind...thanks alot! Phone Post
2/4/13 6:54 PM
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FJJ828
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KM is kinda like JKD Concepts, Israeli style. Meaning that what it looks like today looks quite different than what it looked like even ten years ago. What KM people used to scoff at, is now KM and apparently was part of KM all along... plus groin kicks of course.

2/4/13 7:53 PM
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AndrewJitsu
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OCMikelob -
AndrewJitsu - I have trained it a bunch along my travels and working in Hollywood for fight scenes it works nicely. My opinion on it is that I think it's great. But like any martial arts, it's not the end all. Meaning that being more well rounded in all aspects can really help. I like to take pieces of Krav and pieces of BJJ mixed with a lot of other stuff.

Because when it comes down to it, no street fight is the same. But it does a great job of emphasizing rules and positions when it comes to certain situations. Phone Post
I appreciate it Phone Post
I definitely dig the weapon stuff more than anything. That's just me tho. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:13 AM
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JoeVIP
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So I went to my first Krav Maga class last night. The place was Nashville Krav Maga and it is a Krav Maga Worldwide gym. First everyone was super nice. Nobody had a tough guy attitude or was rude.

The class I went through was there basic lvl 1 class. They covered fighting stance, foot work, push kick, Straight punches "jab and cross" and a self defense technique against a head lock. Every single thing they went over was the exact same thing I have taught people for years. Everything was correct. The only difference was their jab is not a set up punch. They throw it like Bas Rutton with power and mean intentions. Given they are focused on self defense and not sport I can see why.

Also there defense against the head lock is way better then any I learned in BJJ. And oddly enough was one I had taught myself and never saw anywhere else. They also were really big on being physically fit. The class was not like a cardio kickboxing class. It was more like a Thia class. They had a seperate class just for strength and conditioning.

It was reasonably priced at $140 a month or $20 drop in for a day. Which depending on where you are from isn't a bad price at all. They do have year contracts but I understand that and believe businesses like martial arts schools should have them.

My only complaint is they let people where there shoes all over the mats. And all I could think about was how gross that is.

Over all I was very happy with it and will go back agian thursday to check out my second free class. One other thing I took away from it is they are not going to make you an expert in Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling or Judo. So if you are looking to compete or compete in sport grappling, striking or mma you need to look somewhere else. This is all about real world self defense.
2/5/13 11:36 AM
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Large Intestine
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Cool, sounds pretty good. Thanks for the report, Joe, this thread is really rekindling my interest. Let us know how class 2 goes and if they require you to wear Krav gear from head to toe.
2/5/13 11:47 AM
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OCMikelob
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JoeVIP - So I went to my first Krav Maga class last night. The place was Nashville Krav Maga and it is a Krav Maga Worldwide gym. First everyone was super nice. Nobody had a tough guy attitude or was rude.

The class I went through was there basic lvl 1 class. They covered fighting stance, foot work, push kick, Straight punches "jab and cross" and a self defense technique against a head lock. Every single thing they went over was the exact same thing I have taught people for years. Everything was correct. The only difference was their jab is not a set up punch. They throw it like Bas Rutton with power and mean intentions. Given they are focused on self defense and not sport I can see why.

Also there defense against the head lock is way better then any I learned in BJJ. And oddly enough was one I had taught myself and never saw anywhere else. They also were really big on being physically fit. The class was not like a cardio kickboxing class. It was more like a Thia class. They had a seperate class just for strength and conditioning.

It was reasonably priced at $140 a month or $20 drop in for a day. Which depending on where you are from isn't a bad price at all. They do have year contracts but I understand that and believe businesses like martial arts schools should have them.

My only complaint is they let people where there shoes all over the mats. And all I could think about was how gross that is.

Over all I was very happy with it and will go back agian thursday to check out my second free class. One other thing I took away from it is they are not going to make you an expert in Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing, Wrestling or Judo. So if you are looking to compete or compete in sport grappling, striking or mma you need to look somewhere else. This is all about real world self defense.
Thanks for the report back Joe. Sounds good. Let us know how the 2nd one goes. Phone Post
2/5/13 10:21 PM
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JoeVIP
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Large, they sell stuff but don't require you to wear it. There were people there in all types of clothes. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:04 PM
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Large Intestine
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Cool. Phone Post

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