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UnderGround Forums >> Zuffa Fighter Bashing = BAD FOR BUSINESS


2/1/13 11:42 PM
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Haulport
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...

2/1/13 11:51 PM
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MMALOGIC
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 

2/1/13 11:54 PM
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Chris27
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MMALOGIC - 

Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.

2/1/13 11:58 PM
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Don_Dada
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I don't get the big deal with Randy taking a job at Bellator. Why should he not be able to seek employment outside the UFC? There's nothing backstabbing about it, IMO. Phone Post
2/2/13 12:07 AM
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MMALOGIC
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.


yeah, he wasnt doing shows and I think that was a mistake.  He should have been given kenny florians job.

2/2/13 12:15 AM
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UGCTT Molsonmuscle360
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The mainstream doesn't see that stuff though.  They see the posters at the bar and the ad's on TV.  Only the hardcores really watch all the pressers and read Dana's interviews etc. 

2/2/13 12:15 AM
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Haulport
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Disagree.

Many times it's unjustified, yes, but Randy made the first move by going to Bellator, no issue with Dana saying what's up


This is not about justified or unjustified, this is about business. It is myopic to create a cycle everyone expects where you ruin nearly all of your stars at some point. Every fan knows that everyone is going to be revealed as "bad" at some point so they don't idolize them in a way that would create an exponetial amount of interest and word of mouth.

2/2/13 12:18 AM
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Haulport
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The mainstream doesn't see that stuff though.  They see the posters at the bar and the ad's on TV.  Only the hardcores really watch all the pressers and read Dana's interviews etc. 


You are misunderstanding. Mainstream fans LISTEN to the hardcore fans and quite frankly with sports like football, mainstream fans ARE hardcore. If the hardcore see this cycle they lose interest and they don't spread the word which attracts the mainstream fan. People don't see posters and commercials and then sit, alone, in their homes watching MMA. If they can't even talk about it with people they won't pursue it...

2/2/13 12:25 AM
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PrettyBoy
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Agreed. It's bush leauge. Dana had nothing to say about Randy but good things, he signs a TV deal with Bellator now he isnt Captain America and Dana is a hero because he baby sit his kid once.

Dana didn't lock him down so just let him go be quiet. Dana fucked up, Randy is just looking out for himself. The idea of having to just sit around and wait for only UFC opportunities because you fought there is ubsurd. If Dana didn't want him going to another promotion to the point where he has to badmouth him he should have secured him plain and simple. Randy isn't saying shit about the UFC, he just signed a t.v. deal with Bellator.
2/2/13 12:25 AM
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UGCTT Molsonmuscle360
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Haulport - 
UGCTT Molsonmuscle360 - 

The mainstream doesn't see that stuff though.  They see the posters at the bar and the ad's on TV.  Only the hardcores really watch all the pressers and read Dana's interviews etc. 


You are misunderstanding. Mainstream fans LISTEN to the hardcore fans and quite frankly with sports like football, mainstream fans ARE hardcore. If the hardcore see this cycle they lose interest and they don't spread the word which attracts the mainstream fan. People don't see posters and commercials and then sit, alone, in their homes watching MMA. If they can't even talk about it with people they won't pursue it...


To be honest, I find it's generally the same small, but vocal minority of people that make a fuss whenever Dana or someone else at the UFC they deem unprofessional.  Then those same people tend to bitch when he does something to bring the UFC towards the mainstream, saying they preferred the old ways. 

2/2/13 3:04 AM
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CindyO
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.


yeah, he wasnt doing shows and I think that was a mistake.  He should have been given kenny florians job.


Kenny is 5xs the commentator Randy is so why should he have Kenny's job exactly?

 

Cindy

2/2/13 4:06 AM
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Size
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It's a good point you make about the UFC not having him doing some type of on air commentating aside from FOX desk. Randy's a great analyst and they should've made it happen. Florian's good enough, but the idea of him being better than Randy is laughable.
2/2/13 5:33 AM
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LardArseScaretyCat
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explodin -  I think the UFC is doing just fine Phone Post

This. And also find very interesting that everyone knows what's best for the ufc without all the information.
2/2/13 12:58 PM
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Haulport
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I shouldn't have even mentioned Randy. This is not about who's a bad person. Even IF Randy is a despicable human being who kicks dogs and pinches babies IT IS BAD BUSINESS for Zuffa to tear him (or any of their stars) apart. The only time a promoter should do something like that is when their star does something EXCEPTIONALLY bad like:

- Have sex with children (or some exceedingly bizarre sexual thing)
- Is a drug dealer or organized crime figure
- Murders someone
- Says crazy racist kind of stuff
- Is a rapist

Outside of these types of things, Zuffa should ALWAYS say nothing but great things about their fighters even if they go to other orgs or talk shit about the company (like Rampage).
2/2/13 1:01 PM
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Haulport
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.


yeah, he wasnt doing shows and I think that was a mistake.  He should have been given kenny florians job.


Kenny is 5xs the commentator Randy is so why should he have Kenny's job exactly?

 

Cindy


Gotta disagree on this one. Kenny has an annoying voice and is as boring to listen to as watching paint dry. The guy has zero charisma. He and Anik are a terribly lame duo that are just beneath the level at which the UFC are operating at.

You don't have to go any further that Joe Rogan to see how personalityless Kenny is. Joe is a monster on camera and over the broadcast and Kenny is like someone's little, knowledgable brother...

2/2/13 1:10 PM
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PrettyBoy
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PrettyBoy - Agreed. It's bush leauge. Dana had nothing to say about Randy but good things, he signs a TV deal with Bellator now he isnt Captain America and Dana is a hero because he baby sit his kid once.

Dana didn't lock him down so just let him go be quiet. Dana fucked up, Randy is just looking out for himself. The idea of having to just sit around and wait for only UFC opportunities because you fought there is ubsurd. If Dana didn't want him going to another promotion to the point where he has to badmouth him he should have secured him plain and simple. Randy isn't saying shit about the UFC, he just signed a t.v. deal with Bellator.
The truth usually comes out after a split. Randy as a person is garbage. I side with dana on this situation. Phone Post
Where is the split? The guy is retired. He isn't going to Bellator to fight, it's a tv deal.

Is the UFC using him for a reality show? Is he being used as a commentator? ....No??

Then what's the problem? He isn't employed by them. Phone Post
2/2/13 2:23 PM
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Kirik
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Haulport - 

I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.

2/2/13 2:56 PM
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Pessimist_Pete
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Lol at Randy's record - 18-12 Phone Post
2/2/13 3:01 PM
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Jweinberg
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hey now... florian is awesome.. what you talking about willis?

2/2/13 4:26 PM
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Haulport
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.


I include Lorenzo in any post about major occurances because NOTHING happens in Zuffa without Lorenzo giving it the stamp of approval.

And controversy is not the point here. The people promoting those athletes above did not trash them. In fact they did quite the opposite in most cases. 3rd parties trashed them. Often times that is something that is positive to fans. They like the idea that their favorite fighter or athlete is disliked by the media or the "mainstream".

That is not what is happening here. In this case, Zuffa is doing the bashing. THey are denigrating their own product on a regular basis. Active superstars like Hendo, Jon Jones, Rampage and Shogun were all trashed thoroughly by Zuffa last year.

Lorenzo has crafted a model where Dana is the only true superstar in the UFC and that is not going to take them to the next level. Just look at the reports. They are saying that the UFC lost 700k overall ppv buys in 2012 compared to 2011. They blame it on stars being hurt, main events being reshuffled, mars being in the house of Aries, etc. but the reality is that they had the most exposure they have EVER seen in 2012 because of the FOX deal and their PPV numbers went DOWN........

2/2/13 4:29 PM
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Haulport
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Disagree.

Many times it's unjustified, yes, but Randy made the first move by going to Bellator, no issue with Dana saying what's up


This is not about justified or unjustified, this is about business. It is myopic to create a cycle everyone expects where you ruin nearly all of your stars at some point. Every fan knows that everyone is going to be revealed as "bad" at some point so they don't idolize them in a way that would create an exponetial amount of interest and word of mouth.


So you're saying that at some point, every single UFC fighter will be bashed.

That hasn't been the case, nor will it ever be.

You're being overly dramatic.


No, you are exaggerating what I said to make it sound incorrect. That is faulty logic. I am speaking about a SYSTEM of push then trash. I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa.

Stay on topic Mr. Strawman.

2/3/13 7:33 AM
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CindyO
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Haulport - 
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Disagree.

Many times it's unjustified, yes, but Randy made the first move by going to Bellator, no issue with Dana saying what's up


This is not about justified or unjustified, this is about business. It is myopic to create a cycle everyone expects where you ruin nearly all of your stars at some point. Every fan knows that everyone is going to be revealed as "bad" at some point so they don't idolize them in a way that would create an exponetial amount of interest and word of mouth.


So you're saying that at some point, every single UFC fighter will be bashed.

That hasn't been the case, nor will it ever be.

You're being overly dramatic.


No, you are exaggerating what I said to make it sound incorrect. That is faulty logic. I am speaking about a SYSTEM of push then trash. I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa.

Stay on topic Mr. Strawman.


"I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa."

 

But you did say nearly all of the stars so how many is that?

 

Cindy

2/3/13 8:16 AM
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SmackyBear
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Haulport - 
Kirik - 
Haulport - 

I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.


I include Lorenzo in any post about major occurances because NOTHING happens in Zuffa without Lorenzo giving it the stamp of approval.

And controversy is not the point here. The people promoting those athletes above did not trash them. In fact they did quite the opposite in most cases. 3rd parties trashed them. Often times that is something that is positive to fans. They like the idea that their favorite fighter or athlete is disliked by the media or the "mainstream".

That is not what is happening here. In this case, Zuffa is doing the bashing. THey are denigrating their own product on a regular basis. Active superstars like Hendo, Jon Jones, Rampage and Shogun were all trashed thoroughly by Zuffa last year.

Lorenzo has crafted a model where Dana is the only true superstar in the UFC and that is not going to take them to the next level. Just look at the reports. They are saying that the UFC lost 700k overall ppv buys in 2012 compared to 2011. They blame it on stars being hurt, main events being reshuffled, mars being in the house of Aries, etc. but the reality is that they had the most exposure they have EVER seen in 2012 because of the FOX deal and their PPV numbers went DOWN........


Didn't they also have fewer PPVs?

Their PPV average actually went up.


I thought the rhetoric from Dana over UFC 151 was stupid, but I don't exactly see any causal effect from this talking to lower fan interest or PPV buys.

White has been vocal about problems he had with fighters (e.g. Tito) for a long time before last year. So I don't see how you can link any drop in PPV buys to a behavior he's been exhibiting for years.
2/3/13 3:41 PM
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Haulport
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Disagree.

Many times it's unjustified, yes, but Randy made the first move by going to Bellator, no issue with Dana saying what's up


This is not about justified or unjustified, this is about business. It is myopic to create a cycle everyone expects where you ruin nearly all of your stars at some point. Every fan knows that everyone is going to be revealed as "bad" at some point so they don't idolize them in a way that would create an exponetial amount of interest and word of mouth.


So you're saying that at some point, every single UFC fighter will be bashed.

That hasn't been the case, nor will it ever be.

You're being overly dramatic.


No, you are exaggerating what I said to make it sound incorrect. That is faulty logic. I am speaking about a SYSTEM of push then trash. I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa.

Stay on topic Mr. Strawman.


"I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa."

 

But you did say nearly all of the stars so how many is that?

 

Cindy


Unimportant and off topic. Ignoring the core of an argument to try to win a skirmish over semantics so you appear as though you have won or made a point is a logical fallacy known as a Straw-man Argument (see quoted link above).

These are the relevant facts:

1. They received the most mainstream media attention and Mktg push in their HISTORY in 2012
2. The UFC's overall PPV numbers (the only number that COUNTS) are significantly DOWN in 2012
3. Point 1 plus Point 2 = disastrous results.

I believe this disaster is the result of what I have been caterwauling about for quite a few years now (in the false hope that my free business analysis of their strategy would be read and taken to heart by Dana). Unfortunately, Lorenzo and Dana want to blame fighter injuries, event cancellations, internet pirates, a bad economy, etc. as the cause of the problem instead of taking a long, hard look at their over-arching strategy and their PRODUCT. If they don't... this will continue and possibly get worse (especially if TUF gets dumped at some point)...
2/3/13 3:45 PM
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Haulport
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Haulport - 
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Haulport - 

I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.


I include Lorenzo in any post about major occurances because NOTHING happens in Zuffa without Lorenzo giving it the stamp of approval.

And controversy is not the point here. The people promoting those athletes above did not trash them. In fact they did quite the opposite in most cases. 3rd parties trashed them. Often times that is something that is positive to fans. They like the idea that their favorite fighter or athlete is disliked by the media or the "mainstream".

That is not what is happening here. In this case, Zuffa is doing the bashing. THey are denigrating their own product on a regular basis. Active superstars like Hendo, Jon Jones, Rampage and Shogun were all trashed thoroughly by Zuffa last year.

Lorenzo has crafted a model where Dana is the only true superstar in the UFC and that is not going to take them to the next level. Just look at the reports. They are saying that the UFC lost 700k overall ppv buys in 2012 compared to 2011. They blame it on stars being hurt, main events being reshuffled, mars being in the house of Aries, etc. but the reality is that they had the most exposure they have EVER seen in 2012 because of the FOX deal and their PPV numbers went DOWN........


Didn't they also have fewer PPVs?

Their PPV average actually went up.


I thought the rhetoric from Dana over UFC 151 was stupid, but I don't exactly see any causal effect from this talking to lower fan interest or PPV buys.

White has been vocal about problems he had with fighters (e.g. Tito) for a long time before last year. So I don't see how you can link any drop in PPV buys to a behavior he's been exhibiting for years.

It's easy to link because of what is known as Product Fatigue. Also because this has been going on for two years in a row in the face of TREMENDOUS marketing expenditure and exposure. It would be 10 times worse if they didn't pull off the FOX deal. They don't run their business the way they need to re: the fighters and it is not going to work. And having less PPVs is meaningless. Maybe if they had 2 PPVs then their avg would skyrocket...as their revenues CONTINUED to tank.

They have oversaturated the market with a stale product that contains a lot of factors that drive fans away.


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