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UnderGround Forums >> Zuffa Fighter Bashing = BAD FOR BUSINESS


2/3/13 8:16 AM
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SmackyBear
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.


I include Lorenzo in any post about major occurances because NOTHING happens in Zuffa without Lorenzo giving it the stamp of approval.

And controversy is not the point here. The people promoting those athletes above did not trash them. In fact they did quite the opposite in most cases. 3rd parties trashed them. Often times that is something that is positive to fans. They like the idea that their favorite fighter or athlete is disliked by the media or the "mainstream".

That is not what is happening here. In this case, Zuffa is doing the bashing. THey are denigrating their own product on a regular basis. Active superstars like Hendo, Jon Jones, Rampage and Shogun were all trashed thoroughly by Zuffa last year.

Lorenzo has crafted a model where Dana is the only true superstar in the UFC and that is not going to take them to the next level. Just look at the reports. They are saying that the UFC lost 700k overall ppv buys in 2012 compared to 2011. They blame it on stars being hurt, main events being reshuffled, mars being in the house of Aries, etc. but the reality is that they had the most exposure they have EVER seen in 2012 because of the FOX deal and their PPV numbers went DOWN........


Didn't they also have fewer PPVs?

Their PPV average actually went up.


I thought the rhetoric from Dana over UFC 151 was stupid, but I don't exactly see any causal effect from this talking to lower fan interest or PPV buys.

White has been vocal about problems he had with fighters (e.g. Tito) for a long time before last year. So I don't see how you can link any drop in PPV buys to a behavior he's been exhibiting for years.
2/3/13 3:41 PM
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Haulport
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Disagree.

Many times it's unjustified, yes, but Randy made the first move by going to Bellator, no issue with Dana saying what's up


This is not about justified or unjustified, this is about business. It is myopic to create a cycle everyone expects where you ruin nearly all of your stars at some point. Every fan knows that everyone is going to be revealed as "bad" at some point so they don't idolize them in a way that would create an exponetial amount of interest and word of mouth.


So you're saying that at some point, every single UFC fighter will be bashed.

That hasn't been the case, nor will it ever be.

You're being overly dramatic.


No, you are exaggerating what I said to make it sound incorrect. That is faulty logic. I am speaking about a SYSTEM of push then trash. I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa.

Stay on topic Mr. Strawman.


"I am not estimating the exact number of stars trashed by Zuffa."

 

But you did say nearly all of the stars so how many is that?

 

Cindy


Unimportant and off topic. Ignoring the core of an argument to try to win a skirmish over semantics so you appear as though you have won or made a point is a logical fallacy known as a Straw-man Argument (see quoted link above).

These are the relevant facts:

1. They received the most mainstream media attention and Mktg push in their HISTORY in 2012
2. The UFC's overall PPV numbers (the only number that COUNTS) are significantly DOWN in 2012
3. Point 1 plus Point 2 = disastrous results.

I believe this disaster is the result of what I have been caterwauling about for quite a few years now (in the false hope that my free business analysis of their strategy would be read and taken to heart by Dana). Unfortunately, Lorenzo and Dana want to blame fighter injuries, event cancellations, internet pirates, a bad economy, etc. as the cause of the problem instead of taking a long, hard look at their over-arching strategy and their PRODUCT. If they don't... this will continue and possibly get worse (especially if TUF gets dumped at some point)...
2/3/13 3:45 PM
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Haulport
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


I am uncertain why Lorenzo was included above. He is pretty circumspect about his personal opinions where fighters are involved.

As to your point, I think you miss that some of the greatest sports names were profoundly controversial figures. You don't have to be universally admired by all including management in order to become a superstar, particularly in combat sports.

Muhammad Ali is the athlete of the century, and he was DESPISED. Mike Tyson was destroyed in the press, and made a third of a billion dollars. FMJ is probably going to double that mark, and I can't think of a single good word about his personality I ever read.

It is not just fighting, either.

Dale Earnhardt survived showers of debris for his aggressive driving style. Dennis Rodman found fame by being bad. Ty Cobb was pretty much evil and armed. But all those people put asses in seats by the millions.

UFC is going to be fine with DFW speaking his mind. Makes things more interesting, in a media era that is so scripted things have become deadly dull.


I include Lorenzo in any post about major occurances because NOTHING happens in Zuffa without Lorenzo giving it the stamp of approval.

And controversy is not the point here. The people promoting those athletes above did not trash them. In fact they did quite the opposite in most cases. 3rd parties trashed them. Often times that is something that is positive to fans. They like the idea that their favorite fighter or athlete is disliked by the media or the "mainstream".

That is not what is happening here. In this case, Zuffa is doing the bashing. THey are denigrating their own product on a regular basis. Active superstars like Hendo, Jon Jones, Rampage and Shogun were all trashed thoroughly by Zuffa last year.

Lorenzo has crafted a model where Dana is the only true superstar in the UFC and that is not going to take them to the next level. Just look at the reports. They are saying that the UFC lost 700k overall ppv buys in 2012 compared to 2011. They blame it on stars being hurt, main events being reshuffled, mars being in the house of Aries, etc. but the reality is that they had the most exposure they have EVER seen in 2012 because of the FOX deal and their PPV numbers went DOWN........


Didn't they also have fewer PPVs?

Their PPV average actually went up.


I thought the rhetoric from Dana over UFC 151 was stupid, but I don't exactly see any causal effect from this talking to lower fan interest or PPV buys.

White has been vocal about problems he had with fighters (e.g. Tito) for a long time before last year. So I don't see how you can link any drop in PPV buys to a behavior he's been exhibiting for years.

It's easy to link because of what is known as Product Fatigue. Also because this has been going on for two years in a row in the face of TREMENDOUS marketing expenditure and exposure. It would be 10 times worse if they didn't pull off the FOX deal. They don't run their business the way they need to re: the fighters and it is not going to work. And having less PPVs is meaningless. Maybe if they had 2 PPVs then their avg would skyrocket...as their revenues CONTINUED to tank.

They have oversaturated the market with a stale product that contains a lot of factors that drive fans away.

2/3/13 3:54 PM
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Kirik
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Edited: 02/03/13 5:33 PM
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The UnderGround, Mayor

Is your argument that PPV buys over all are down because Dana has offered some harsh words about some elite fighters? I am not trying to be snide or anything, just trying to understand your train of thought.

Also interested in your take on PPV buys and Tito Ortiz when he and Dana were feuding.

2/3/13 5:04 PM
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JeffersonDArcyChoke
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.


yeah, he wasnt doing shows and I think that was a mistake.  He should have been given kenny florians job.


Kenny is 5xs the commentator Randy is so why should he have Kenny's job exactly?

 

Cindy

5 times?

I'd say Frank Mir was better than both if I had to pick.

Couture's value was in being Randy.

Just like HBO had when George Foreman called fights.

HBO didn't use George because he was the most eloquent but rather because people loved him.

More people love Randy than Florian.

Having Capt. America, "that man is my hero", star from 'The Expendables' in a booth is more valuable than Florian.

5 times better?

That's your call.

But you can't say Florian is 5X as valuable from Q rating or pure PR.

Let's go Princess. - Randy Couture Phone Post
2/3/13 11:39 PM
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Haulport
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


PPV numbers have increased this year, even with all the trash talking DFW does about his contracted employees. Maybe you should rethink your arguments? There are more eyes on the UFC brand now than ever before.

From what Dave Meltzer is reporting, the UFC did 6.4mm PPV buys in 2011 and 5.7mm PPV buys in 2012 with less shows. The only thing higher is the avg, which doesn't matter. Total revenues are all that matter and PPV total revs for 2011 and then 2012 are down. Two years in a row...

2/3/13 11:52 PM
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Haulport
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Is your argument that PPV buys over all are down because Dana has offered some harsh words about some elite fighters? I am not trying to be snide or anything, just trying to understand your train of thought.

Also interested in your take on PPV buys and Tito Ortiz when he and Dana were feuding.


That is my argument, absolutely.

The never-ending cycle of Dana denigrating his own product is taking it's toll. There are other factors at play also imo: how they present their product, match-making, etc. but the model of bashing fighters is almost unparalleled in sport and makes fans lose interest in men they see not as "sports gods" but as flawed and probably 2nd rate because of the constant drubbing they take by the organization who is supposed to be promoting them or the expectation of the "inevitable" drubbing.

That sensibility is antithetical to what people look for in sports.

The Tito situation is where it started. Dana and Tito did the whole Stone Cold Steve Austin / Mr. McMahon "rebel fighting his boss" schtick. The issue at play here is not the first instance of this, it is the incessent reoccuring bashing of so many fighters.

No one wants to hear it. It's not fun, it's not cool. The trashing of Cain and of Junior on the first FOX show was a disaster and terribly damaged both fighters in the eyes of casual fans (and may have driven many away). The FOX people knew that and Dana disappeared from the desk after that.

2/3/13 11:53 PM
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Haulport
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Randy Couture isnt fighting in a ppv anytime soon... but yeah, I agree with the premise of your point.

I think Zuffa made a mistake by not locking Randy down in the booth.  He's a great analyst.  Florian sucks as color man...  Randy was great when he was doing it.

They made a similar mistake with king mo... releasing him when he was already on suspension... what the heck was the point of that?

 


Randy wasnt doing shows though he was just doing the Fox desk and frankly Stann > Randy at the desk.


yeah, he wasnt doing shows and I think that was a mistake.  He should have been given kenny florians job.


Kenny is 5xs the commentator Randy is so why should he have Kenny's job exactly?

 

Cindy

5 times?

I'd say Frank Mir was better than both if I had to pick.

Couture's value was in being Randy.

Just like HBO had when George Foreman called fights.

HBO didn't use George because he was the most eloquent but rather because people loved him.

More people love Randy than Florian.

Having Capt. America, "that man is my hero", star from 'The Expendables' in a booth is more valuable than Florian.

5 times better?

That's your call.

But you can't say Florian is 5X as valuable from Q rating or pure PR.

Let's go Princess. - Randy Couture Phone Post

I couldn't agree more...

2/4/13 12:52 AM
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Master Tang
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


Please, Dana's Meglomaniac "act" sells tons of more tickets and PPV's than the retired Handy, as honorable and respectable as Mr. Couture is.

You gotta keep in mind that Mr. White is the guy thought putting a failed politician to fight the best fighting on the planet in Anderson Silva to save a UFC PPV, then when that didn't happen and the UFC didn't have the "main event" that that wanted - TOTALLY FUCKED ALL THE FANS AND ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BOUGHT TICKETS.

Stop over-reacting and just wait until the Fertitta Brothers find another Ringmaster for their Eight Ring Circus.
2/4/13 3:02 AM
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Haulport
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I know I've said this a million times, but if Lorenzo and Dana want to see their PPV numbers increase and they want to see the UFC really grow into the mainstream they need to WAKE UP and stop with all the fighter bashing.

Let's take this newest Randy Couture episode. Regardless of what may or may not go on behind the scenes, even if Randy was a terrible guy, it does not benefit the UFC to raise stars up and then trash them. That's great if you want to sell subscriptions to the National Enquirer, but when your entire business is based on getting fans EXCITED over your product (i.e. fights between FIGHTERS) by creating this cycle of "He's the Best" - - - "He's a real SOB" what you do is make every fan a believer that ALL FIGHTERS or all of your STARS are in fact losers and pieces of garbage. With that belief they will never get particularly excited over anyone because they will always anticipate the inevitable trashing.

You don't want that.

Now I know it gives them leverage over the fighters, control, etc. but that only takes you so far (and we have seen that peak). To go further you MUST transform your stars into SUPERstars and GODS the way every other sport (particluar footbal and soccer) do. Without that, the UFC will never see the true mainstream success they crave...


Please, Dana's Meglomaniac "act" sells tons of more tickets and PPV's than the retired Handy, as honorable and respectable as Mr. Couture is.

You gotta keep in mind that Mr. White is the guy thought putting a failed politician to fight the best fighting on the planet in Anderson Silva to save a UFC PPV, then when that didn't happen and the UFC didn't have the "main event" that that wanted - TOTALLY FUCKED ALL THE FANS AND ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BOUGHT TICKETS.

Stop over-reacting and just wait until the Fertitta Brothers find another Ringmaster for their Eight Ring Circus.

Sifu, I am concerned about your state of mind tonight............

2/4/13 1:49 PM
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2/4/13 2:17 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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2/4/13 2:18 PM
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2/5/13 2:27 PM
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