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UnderGround Forums >> It's crazy that arguably the best 155er


2/2/13 2:44 PM
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UGSlapshot
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RileyPust - Definitely P4P best if he beats Aldo up.
Because Aldo is so battle tested against fighters with the most skill in the ufc....

P4P rankings are bullshit predicated on fantasy, that said..

Im a big fan of Edgar and I think he should starch Aldo but he wouldn't be in my top three p4p.

Silva
GSP
JbJ


Wtf is up with p4p ranking anyway, we all know they are a fallacy.

Toss out weight classes and tell me who you think is the baddest man in the ufc mano a mano.

IMO thats Jones Cain or Silva. Phone Post
2/2/13 2:45 PM
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boulder40
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nowaydo - Also, it's crazy that "arguably" the best 155er isn't in the UFC. Chandler.
If he's so bad ass why is the UFC going after a guy he beat? Real question... I haven't heard of him til just now reading your post and looking him up... Didn't have mtv2 and started watching bellator on spike Phone Post
2/2/13 3:10 PM
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D241
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orcus - 

Many, including me, think he won the second fight with Benson. 

Your beloved fightmetric.com doesn't agree with you. 
You know about fightmetric.com right? You were trying to convince me that Fabricio Werdum BEAT Alistair Overeem in their Strikeforce bout b/c FIGHTMETRIC said so.
 
Seems like how orcus sees somefights and how fightmetric sees fights is how you say........INCONSISTENT
 
 
lol
 

FightMetric Scores Ben Henderson Vs. Frankie Edgar A Draw

 
2/2/13 3:13 PM
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Kinkle
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:13 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Because you don't like the reality than many who dropped weight classes haven't done well, and you would rather go with your assumptions that Edgar will translate well to 135?


You are basically arguing that weight cutting is a DISADVANTAGE, if what you are trying to argue is true than there would be NO WEIGHTCUTTING, because it is a disadvantage. All fighters would have an advantage if they fought one weightclass above.

If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, there really is nothing to say.
2/2/13 3:15 PM
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ThatKickDidntHuroooohhhhhhhh
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D241 - 

 


 
orcus - 

Many, including me, think he won the second fight with Benson. 

Your beloved fightmetric.com doesn't agree with you. 
You know about fightmetric.com right? You were trying to convince me that Fabricio Werdum BEAT Alistair Overeem in their Strikeforce bout b/c FIGHTMETRIC said so.
 
Seems like how orcus sees somefights and how fightmetric sees fights is how you say........INCONSISTENT
 
 
lol
 

FightMetric Scores Ben Henderson Vs. Frankie Edgar A Draw

 

Oh snaaaaaappp.  

 

2/2/13 3:17 PM
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Kinkle
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D241 just sat orcus DOWN!!!
2/2/13 3:24 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:27 PM
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Kinkle - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Because you don't like the reality than many who dropped weight classes haven't done well, and you would rather go with your assumptions that Edgar will translate well to 135?

 


You are basically arguing that weight cutting is a DISADVANTAGE, if what you are trying to argue is true than there would be NO WEIGHTCUTTING, because it is a disadvantage. All fighters would have an advantage if they fought one weightclass above.

If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, there really is nothing to say.

 


That's not actually what I am arguing at all. Thanks for wasting a post.

 

 

I am however arguing that Frankie Edgar has NEVER fought at 135, hasn't even fought at 145 yet, and hasn't cut weight to weigh in in the 130s since college. I am arguing that YOU are being ignorant to ASSUME that Edgar will "easily take them down and smash them throught he mat"....considering:

1. We don't know if he will be able to make the cut to 135 and be healthy doing it.

2. We don't know if he will still have the advantages he had at 155.

 

If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, there really is nothing to say.

2/2/13 3:25 PM
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flowwiththego
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You're the best P4p losing a decision and not stopping people? Phone Post
2/2/13 3:26 PM
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madvillain11
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Kinkle - You can argue that Edgar is the best at 155, but you'd definitely be wrong. Benson is OBVIOUSLY the best. I agree though, Edgar is the #1 P4P and will beat Aldo tonight to be undisputed #1 P4P.

can you show me the evidence that makes you so confident benson is OBVIOUSLY better then frankie?
2/2/13 3:31 PM
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boulder40
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Rambo John J -
boulder40 - 
nowaydo - Also, it's crazy that "arguably" the best 155er isn't in the UFC. Chandler.
If he's so bad ass why is the UFC going after a guy he beat? Real question... I haven't heard of him til just now reading your post and looking him up... Didn't have mtv2 and started watching bellator on spike Phone Post

Bro.

Chandler is a Beast and he is just getting started. 

I'll have to watch some of his fights then... I try to stay up on fighters NOT in the UFC but its hard when some shows aren't on national tv and/or stupid xfinity doesn't carry them(axs) Phone Post
2/2/13 3:33 PM
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Kinkle
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:33 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
That's not actually what I am arguing at all. Thanks for wasting a post.





I am however arguing that Frankie Edgar has NEVER fought at 135, hasn't even fought at 145 yet, and hasn't cut weight to weigh in in the 130s since college. I am arguing that YOU are being ignorant to ASSUME that Edgar will "easily take them down and smash them throught he mat"....considering:

1. We don't know if he will be able to make the cut to 135 and be healthy doing it.

2. We don't know if he will still have the advantages he had at 155.



If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, there really is nothing to say.

Now you are changing your entire argument. You first argued that 135ers would give Frankie a tough fight because there would be no speed advantage, then argued that cutting weight is a disadvantage, now you are arguing because it is unknown how he will look after the cut. Who knows how he would cut to 135, I know he would do it very smartly though if he did attempt it, a guy that didn't cut to 155 and wrestled his whole life shouldn't have much problem getting to 135. I doubt we will ever see Frankie at 135 though, he'll stay at 145 and 155 IMO.

I also like how people are saying that Frankie will lose his advantages at 135, guess what, he gains a MASSIVE strength advantage at that weight, and is still as quick as anybody at that weight. Weightclasses exist for a reason, because an average 135 lb fighter would lose to a 145lb fighter, that 145 lber would lose to an average 155lber and so on. It is usually TOUGHER for a fighter to move UP in weight not down, does this really need to be explained?
2/2/13 3:34 PM
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Kinkle
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madvillain11 - 
Kinkle - You can argue that Edgar is the best at 155, but you'd definitely be wrong. Benson is OBVIOUSLY the best. I agree though, Edgar is the #1 P4P and will beat Aldo tonight to be undisputed #1 P4P.

can you show me the evidence that makes you so confident benson is OBVIOUSLY better then frankie?

Maybe the two WINS over Frankie?
2/2/13 3:41 PM
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PrettyBoy
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Kinkle - You can argue that Edgar is the best at 155, but you'd definitely be wrong. Benson is OBVIOUSLY the best. I agree though, Edgar is the #1 P4P and will beat Aldo tonight to be undisputed #1 P4P.
You are a tard Benson obviously lost that last fight against Edgar. Phone Post
2/2/13 3:42 PM
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orcus
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"I WOULD argue that he lost his two last fights, if it weren't factually accurate."

Saying he lost those two fights is factually accurate. However that is not the same as saying Benson is better than he is.

"You know about fightmetric.com right? You were trying to convince me that Fabricio Werdum BEAT Alistair Overeem in their Strikeforce bout b/c FIGHTMETRIC said so."

No, you are mistaken, as you always are. In response to your saying no sane person could come up with a rational explanation for how Werdum could deserve the win over Alistair (which as I said I thought he did), I pointed you to Fightmetric, who had Werdum throwing and landing more strikes, including significant strikes, and having the lone sub attempt -- and winning both in the 10-point scoring system and in Fightmetric's own scoring system. The point being that there was clearly a good argument to be made for Werdum getting the win, contrary to your hysterical ranting. Nowhere did I try to claim that Werdum was a slamdunk for the win, or that Fightmetric is the overriding authority.

Another day, another fail from Dbag.

In any case, Fightmetric scoring Benson/Edgar II a draw just supports my case that Edgar is arguably the best 155er. Draw with Benson, domination of BJ, KO of Maynard...that seems like a strong argument for no one being above Edgar to me. Also, looking at the Fightmetric, they had the 10-point must as a draw but their own scoring system had Frankie as the winner.

2/2/13 3:42 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:43 PM
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Kinkle - 
Now you are changing your entire argument. You first argued that 135ers would give Frankie a tough fight because there would be no speed advantage, then argued that cutting weight is a disadvantage, now you are arguing because it is unknown how he will look after the cut. Who knows how he would cut to 135, I know he would do it very smartly though if he did attempt it, a guy that didn't cut to 155 and wrestled his whole life shouldn't have much problem getting to 135. I doubt we will ever see Frankie at 135 though, he'll stay at 145 and 155 IMO.

I also like how people are saying that Frankie will lose his advantages at 135, guess what, he gains a MASSIVE strength advantage at that weight, and is still as quick as anybody at that weight. Weightclasses exist for a reason, because an average 135 lb fighter would lose to a 145lb fighter, that 145 lber would lose to an average 155lber and so on. It is usually TOUGHER for a fighter to move UP in weight not down, does this really need to be explained?

 


I am not changing my whole argument.

None of it needs to be explained.

Everything is hypotheticals.

YOU are the only one proclaiming that Edgar will "Easily take them down and smash them through the mat". My point this whole time is that you have NO CLUE how well Frankie can compete at 135, and that to ASSUME that he will be able to maul anyone and everyone is very ignorant based on the data we have about fighters moving down weight classes.

 

 

It's okay that you're having such a hard time graping that. My point the whole time has been there are factors that change when a "fast" fighter at 155 tries to drop 20lbs. Speed advantages deminish, weight cutting could impact his seemingly insane cardio etc....

 

2/2/13 3:46 PM
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Kinkle
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Okay, I'm done arguing. according to UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA, a fighter does WORSE when they drop down a weightclass. Using his logic, the HW division actually has the worst fighters. and the 125lb division has the best. Demetrius Johnson would annihilate Cain Velasquez in a fight according to UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA. I'm done arguing, you are completely correct, I was wrong.
2/2/13 3:48 PM
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D241
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orcus - 

"You know about fightmetric.com right? You were trying to convince me that Fabricio Werdum BEAT Alistair Overeem in their Strikeforce bout b/c FIGHTMETRIC said so."

 In response to your saying no sane person could come up with a rational explanation for how Werdum could deserve the win over Alistair (which as I said I thought he did), I pointed you to Fightmetric. Nowhere did I try to claim that Werdum was a slamdunk for the win, or that Fightmetric is the overriding authority.

 
Funny that you replied that way, because I was just going to give the analogy that using fightmetric.com to support an argument as to why you think so and so one a fight, is basically like saying, "my friend scored the fight for so and so, so I side with him".
 
The problem with that, is you'd have to be consistent, which in this case, you weren't.  I didn't know fightmetric was a person, I thought it was a system.
 
If fightmetric isn't the overriding authority, than you shouldn't have tried to use that to support your belief that Werdum with his glorious buttflopping somehow "won" against Alistair Overeem.
2/2/13 3:49 PM
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JJSFC
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Yet Edgar still gets booed at the weigh-ins. SMH
2/2/13 3:51 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Kinkle - Okay, I'm done arguing. according to UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA, a fighter does WORSE when they drop down a weightclass. Using his logic, the HW division actually has the worst fighters. and the 125lb division has the best. Demetrius Johnson would annihilate Cain Velasquez in a fight according to UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA. I'm done arguing, you are completely correct, I was wrong.

Yes yes, strawmans and red herrings and then dicktuck with sarcasm at the end.

 

The ultimate escape. Well done.

2/2/13 3:51 PM
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D241
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My point, is use your own criteria as to why you think so and so won a fight. I would think that "orcus" would be able to do that and not have to resort to a system that is flawed, a system he obviously doesn't agree with 100%.

 

 

Edgar/Benson 1=Draw   Edgar/Benson 2=draw, but with Edgar having an edge.

 

I don't disagree with you on Edgar orcus. I use MY opinion, and in this circumstance, I'm in agreement with you, DESPITE what fightmetric says.

2/2/13 3:55 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 02/02/13 3:55 PM
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"I didn't know fightmetric was a person, I thought it was a system."

That's because you are wrong about everything, every time. Fightmetric is a website. The people behind the website watch fights and count strikes, takedowns, submissions, etc. At least until they became the official stats providers for the UFC, they did their counting/scoring from the tape, so they could frame-by-frame and slow-mo to see what's landing and what isn't. I don't know if they do that now and revise their initial live stats.

"If fightmetric isn't the overriding authority, than you shouldn't have tried to use that to support your belief that Werdum with his glorious buttflopping somehow "won" against Alistair Overeem."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I used fightmetric to show that I was not the only one who thought Werdum threw and landed more strikes and had the lone sub attempt, and thus I am not the only one who thought he won, nor is it true -- as you claimed -- that no one could rationally give that fight to Werdum. 

"DESPITE what fightmetric says."

Again, Fightmetric has Edgar winning under their own system.

2/2/13 3:55 PM
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D241
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orcus - 

He'd have a good case. He'd have beaten BJ at LW (including getting more takedowns than Fitch, Macdonald, and Hughes did), been the only guy to beat Gray Maynard -- and doing it by KO -- and then arguably outfought Benson Henderson, before going down and beating Aldo who himself is a p4p great -- all while being smaller than the 145er.


I can think of 2 people who not only have wins over Gray Maynard, but who have finished him as well.

 

I'm talking about a FIGHT. not "sanctioned" fight, a fight.  Nate Diaz finished Gray Mayard in the Tuf house, so Edgar isn't the only one to finish Gray, and not the only one to finish him in the octagon.

And Gray Maynard also finished Gray Maynard. Famous double ko.

Edgar beating Gray is an accomplishment, but you seem to be sugarcoating Edgar finishing him as it's been done before.

2/2/13 3:57 PM
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orcus
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"I'm talking about a FIGHT. not "sanctioned" fight, a fight.  "

lol, whatever dude. 

2/2/13 5:01 PM
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liquidrob
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Wasa-B - 
liquidrob - Gil could make 145 also

Says who?

Can Anderson still make 167?

Gil and his camp

"The outcome of Saturday's title fight between champ Benson Henderson and Nate Diaz will not only impact the UFC's lightweight division, but possibly its future featherweight class.

Diaz today revealed that Strikeforce lightweight champ Gilbert Melendez (21-2 MMA, 11-1 SF) is considering a run at featherweight if the title changes hands on Saturday night at UFC on FOX 5, which takes place at KeyArena in Seattle.

Melendez trainer Cesar Gracie also told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) that the fighter is negotiating with the UFC on a possible new contract.

Diaz vs. Henderson serves on the event's FOX-televised main card, which follows prelims on FX and Facebook.

Gracie said Melendez, who currently is unable to fight due to a severe shoulder separation suffered in training for a scheduled Sept. 29 fight with Pat Healy, still has fights remaining on his Strikeforce contract, which was inked prior to the promotion's acquisition by UFC parent company Zuffa.

The trainer said negotiations are in the preliminary stages and stressed that nothing was finalized. He added that Melendez would likely stay at lightweight if Diaz is unsuccessful in his challenge of Henderson.

Diaz, meanwhile, said he could fight at lightweight or welterweight should Melendez migrate to the UFC.

"S--t don't go too well for this fight, and Gilbert Melendez is going to be champion for sure," Diaz said. "No doubt in my mind."

Gracie said Melendez is still recovering from the injury and was unsure on a timetable for the fighter's return. He most recently fought in May, when he defeated ex-champ Josh Thomson in a rubber match. He currently enjoys a seven-fight win streak.

Melendez repeatedly lobbied to cross over to the UFC when Strikeforce was acquired by Zuffa, but an agreement between Zuffa and Strikeforce broadcast partner Showtime nixed such a possibility. He was expected to fight on a Jan. 12 event, which is expected to be the final Strikeforce show, but had to again pull out due to his injury."
2/2/13 5:19 PM
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ortman166
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ThatKickDidntHuroooohhhhhhhh -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 

I wouldn't say Frankie is terribly outside vs. Aldo. They seem close enough.

 

Edagr is a beast and if he beat Aldo should certainly be very high in the P4P discussion given his domination at LW as a very small LW.


Coming from the guy that says GSP and Anderson are comparable in size ;)

Derp Phone Post

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