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2/5/13 5:50 PM
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RileyPust
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I think they should just test the theory. They should just have alternate divisions that allow PED use. Anyone caught using in the PED-free division would be banned.

If you wanna juice, fine. But don't use it to get a leg up on honest competitors who don't wanna damage their health with PEDs.
2/5/13 6:00 PM
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trobinson21
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Warrenpeace - "Sports aren't about fair competition. It's entertainment."


Bullshit.
Did you miss the part of the Super Bowl where they risked the entire second half of the game so Beyonce could Di an aerobics class at halftime? Sports is entertainment alone. If it was about the pure competition we would watch track n field on Sundays not the NFL. Phone Post
2/5/13 6:02 PM
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A.Muradyan
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What about people who dont want to do illegal PEDs for any reason? Why not have fighters bring in weapons?

This whole prespective of PEDs will change once a fighter dies and the opponent tests positive for PEDs. This is inevitable. Phone Post
2/5/13 6:11 PM
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A.Muradyan
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TheFapMaster -
A.Muradyan -  What about people who dont want to do illegal PEDs for any reason? Why not have fighters bring in weapons?

This whole prespective of PEDs will change once a fighter dies and the opponent tests positive for PEDs. This is inevitable. Phone Post

Could you amp up the drama any more? Really? There are valid arguments against legalizing PED's, but death in the cage isn't one of them.
Death in the cage is matter of when not if. It will happen regardless of PEDs or not. But if PEDs are involved, can you guess how the anti-MMA media will react? Phone Post
2/5/13 6:11 PM
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WrestlingSucks
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In regional mma there are juiced animals that suddenly look weak when in the ufc and not because of jitters
2/5/13 6:14 PM
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MantainPain
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The point hes making here is this: It's already wide spread, so the current system just favors the better cheaters.

Is that how you want the sport?
Something needs to change with our regulation, it's not effectively leveling the playing field.
2/5/13 6:20 PM
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Maksemous
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When it comes down to it steroids don't make that big of a difference. Life isn't a comic book, no one get super powers in a lab accident. All that steroids do is give someone the ability to train at a higher intensity, frequency, and to recover faster.

Tim Sylvia on roids was still...Tim Sylvia, same goes for Bonnar, and a bunch of other fighters who mess with that stuff.

It's also worth noting that approximately 5-10% of steroid users experience fits of supposedly uncontrollable "roid rage." The vast majority of steroid users probably won't turn into violent monsters. However, there's gonna be those few rotten apples who snap and kill people. That's what worries me. A drunk guy snapping in a bar is one thing. However, a roided out monster snapping could be dangerous.

I think PED's should only be used by people who have a legitimate medical need. There are men born with low testosterone, but I don't think they're in the UFC.
2/5/13 7:48 PM
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confusionSay
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Piss in the blood is remarkably much more dangerous than the kidney stone
2/5/13 8:19 PM
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rundymc
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3rdLion -  I hate the "level playing field" argument. Just because you have to compensate for your poor skills with steroids doesn't mean that everyone else has to. Phone Post

lol at "compensate for poor skills". Come on man.

Anyway, props to Sean for saying this.
2/5/13 8:35 PM
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Doem
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maybe it doesnt matter.
i mean, if we are just watching a bunch of juice heads now in the ufc, nfl, MLB ect then what does it matter if its legal or not.


They need to find a way to test your hair for that shit.
2/5/13 8:37 PM
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rundymc
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NicolasExitBJJ - fuck cheaters. hating on a guy because he has more talent is a sign of laziness. so what if he's genetically more gifted? let's say I got a colleague who's smarter than me hence better at computer programming, I'm not gonna take some drug to make me a better programmer now am I? see how ridiculous that sounds? no you study and work hard to become a better programmer. so what if fighting is their way of sustaining their families, maybe you should've gone to school ya dumb shit. IMO it's a sign of a society that thinks that everybody is entitled to everything. no you're not, life isn't fair. try to attain your own goals within the limits of your health and talent and don't worry about what somebody else does.

A drug that makes me smarter? Fuck yes I'd take it!

"try to attain your own goals within the limits of your health and talent and don't worry about what somebody else does."

That sounds like a very nice code of conduct to live by. However, to think this is the only acceptable code of conduct is, I'm sorry to say friend, ridiculous.

To make a valid argument against PED-legalization, you need to present a fact, not a moral standpoint.

E.g: PED-use can be dangerous, and legalization can make the risks run out of control VS. IT'S NOT THE AMERICAN WAY!
2/5/13 8:39 PM
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rundymc
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NAKMEEZY - Sean is on da juice!

The part about how testing for elevated testosterone levels (18:1 6:1) and that not having anything to do with benefiting the athlete is complete garbage Sean. The liver stone comparison was just stupid too. Synthetic or natural your body will still use that testosterone if its in your system. maybe not ALL of it. but still a good amount. more than enough to be beneficial and give you an edge

Under an experienced doctors supervision it is actually not extremely difficult to regulate testosterone levels and keep them around legal levels.

>I agree though i wanna see some roided up monsters in the cage. you can use creatine caffeine and protein supplements right? doesnt those enhance your performance too? last time i checked caffeine was a drug. hmm someone call the athletic commission we cant have none of that

Read up on the topic you are speaking about.

What you just stated shows your ignorance.
2/5/13 8:43 PM
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rundymc
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A.Muradyan -  What about people who dont want to do illegal PEDs for any reason? Why not have fighters bring in weapons?

This whole prespective of PEDs will change once a fighter dies and the opponent tests positive for PEDs. This is inevitable. Phone Post

PRIDE.

Also, if they don't want to do PEDs, they don't have to, lol.
2/5/13 8:48 PM
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rundymc
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A lot of you, and this is common in PED related threads, seem to present moral arguments/justifications.

Doing so gets us nowhere.

These threads inevitably turn into shouting matches instead of proper debates, and it seems this remains true in the "real world". People pick a side on the steroid issue and do their best to win arguments by talking in circles.

Guys, this isn't religion. This isn't about "the spirit of sports" or "fairplay" or "do what it takes to win" or any of that cunt nonsense.

This is fairly simple stuff. Drug use in sports. What do we legalize, where do we draw the line, what are the problems we run into with legalization, what about the problems with illegalization?

No one asks those questions in the real world, because STEROIDZ is some sort of taboo topic, like anal sex in the 40s.
2/5/13 9:04 PM
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Bad Monkey
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Mr Bungle - 
bobboburns - 
Sean McCorkle -
TheFapMaster - People that complain about steroids, are the one's that dont have access to them.

exactly
I agree with Sean. I recommend everyone watching the doc called "Bigger, Stronger, Faster." Talks alot about the issues with PEDs in sports. One of the most interesting things I took away from that film is what Tiger Woods was allowed to do. He got laser eye surgery which made his eye sight BETTER than 20/20. In a sport where eye sight and depth perception is very, very important how is this allowed? In my eyes its the same as a NFL or UFC player bumping up there T levels.

Also look up "super cows." Their DNA allows them to build twice the muscle as regular cows. In the future they will do this to humans. Is that going to be considered a PED since its "natural?" Phone Post

Tiger Woods was also linked to some Canadian (forgot who he is, someone here knows who I'm talking about) who got caught bringing in some kind of highly illegal technique of injecting something into certain injured limbs to speed up the process. It was suggested that Tiger and the Canadian met up on several occasions to inject that method into Tigers knee to speed up the healing process. Something to do with platelets, If I remember correctly.

I'm a golf nut and I like Tiger, I'd be shocked if wasn't on gear.  He Reem'd up almost as much as Reem throughout his career.  And they don't test for shit in golf.  They can play drunk or high if they want.

2/5/13 9:07 PM
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Tombmatter
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It all boils down to the question "Do you want your kids to pump themselves full of steroids just to win in sports?" And for most parents the answer is no.

This would then lead kids not getting to do sports that "require" steroids, and thus those sports would die.

So its lot easier and faster route to go straight to underground as unsanctioned sport like NHB and do what you like for the fun of it and for some pocket money, because the end result is the same.
2/5/13 9:11 PM
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ChiTown Philly
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It's kinda funny how dumb people are to the fact that most are doing it and there will always be people trying to beat the system and gain an advantage. Phone Post
2/5/13 10:06 PM
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Hessian
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Sean McCorkle - 
letsgobois - 

So you know this for a fact when you say "All of your Olympic athletes do too"? Because I can guarantee you that is false. So with this generalization your saying since you are a professional fighter, your on some banned substance as well or your just the only one who is not?


Ok, the guy who ski's and shoot a gun probably doesn't. The vast majority though do.

Actually most the biathlon people I know used blood doping.
2/5/13 10:20 PM
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Maksemous
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I'm more concerned about the 5-10% of PED users who are susceptible to fits of violent uncontrollable rage. I believe people should have sovereignty over their own health. However, there are documented cases of steroid abusers snapping, hurting people, and asserting diminished capacity as a defense to the specific intent crime that they're charged with.

I've seen guys on steroids lose their temper. It's a lot like that violent drunk guy no one likes...but on steroids...
2/6/13 4:29 AM
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rundymc
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Tombmatter - It all boils down to the question "Do you want your kids to pump themselves full of steroids just to win in sports?" And for most parents the answer is no.

This would then lead kids not getting to do sports that "require" steroids, and thus those sports would die.

So its lot easier and faster route to go straight to underground as unsanctioned sport like NHB and do what you like for the fun of it and for some pocket money, because the end result is the same.

I disagree. Bear with me, I'll explain.

My impression, from reading interviews and articles by athletes and "dope-dealers" like Angel Hernandez, is that steroid use is rather rampant in sports. As such, if kids want to win at the highest levels of sports, be it sprinting, football or MMA, they either need to work their fucking asses off and hope their talent/genetics is where it needs to be, or start using..... Or quit.

That's how it is now. I'd rather my kids know what's up RIGHT NOW, than find out later that their hero Lance Armstrong (hypothetical, lol) was a user, or that they are unlikely to contend the world record in the 100m without some drug assistance.

So the argument you could present is: "Wait a sec, when my kid finds out his sporting heroes are on something, would they not want to emulate them. What example is being set for them."
My reply to this is: "Are you not the kid's parent? Your child watches all sorts of violence in media, and has yet to turn into a serial killer. I think you'll do fine."

As to your assertion that sports would eventually die if steroid use was legalized, I'll contend that, though I can't say I have much of an argument in my favor. I will say I'd rather the truth be out, than have parents and their children living a lie.
2/6/13 4:34 AM
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rundymc
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Maksemous - I'm more concerned about the 5-10% of PED users who are susceptible to fits of violent uncontrollable rage. I believe people should have sovereignty over their own health. However, there are documented cases of steroid abusers snapping, hurting people, and asserting diminished capacity as a defense to the specific intent crime that they're charged with.

I've seen guys on steroids lose their temper. It's a lot like that violent drunk guy no one likes...but on steroids...

Good point. I'm leaning more towards the "sovereignty over health" part. If a guy starts slipping while using, it's his responsibility to stop, just as it is a drinker's responsibility to stop consuming liquor.
2/6/13 4:50 AM
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NicolasExitBJJ
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FSMA - 
NicolasExitBJJ - fuck cheaters. hating on a guy because he has more talent is a sign of laziness. so what if he's genetically more gifted? let's say I got a colleague who's smarter than me hence better at computer programming, I'm not gonna take some drug to make me a better programmer now am I? see how ridiculous that sounds? no you study and work hard to become a better programmer. so what if fighting is their way of sustaining their families, maybe you should've gone to school ya dumb shit. IMO it's a sign of a society that thinks that everybody is entitled to everything. no you're not, life isn't fair. try to attain your own goals within the limits of your health and talent and don't worry about what somebody else does.

You can't honestly compare something like cognitive functioning and/or IQ with something physical like MMA. It doesn't compute.

why not? it's a talent just like any other.
2/6/13 9:55 AM
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rossi47
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The situation is really really sad.

If you are so fucking stupid that you wanna use steroids then go ahead. Ruin your system for the rest of your life, fuck with your mental health and tell your kids it's great.

That's what Martial Arts are all about
2/6/13 10:01 AM
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Headkick420
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lol. 0/10
2/6/13 12:52 PM
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Osbot
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Sean McCorkle - If a pro athlete tested positive for steroids it's because he was taking steroids. And it's not something he bought at GNC and thought it was legal. If you can buy it at GNC, it's because it doesn't work.

And his doctor didn't accidentally prescribe it. And there weren't false positives on the tests.

Do any of you actually believe that 90% of athletes in all professional sports are clean, and 10% that are juicing are the bad apples spoiling the bunch?

The ratio is probably quite the opposite. Are you telling me a 20 year old kid at the NFL scouting combine bench presses 700 lbs naturally? Probably not.

All of your Olympic athletes do too. This isn't an epidemic, it comes with the territory and always has. The UFC gets a bad rap for steroids because of the violence associated with it, but somehow football slides right by.

I have no idea how the NFL's testing policy works. But if any of you believe the whole league isn't gearing up you're crazy. You'd have to just to be able to recover from the weekly damage you incur.

I say legalize everything, and let the chips fall where they may. Sports aren't about fair competition. It's entertainment. And what's more entertaining than two chemically enhanced monsters going at each other?

Lastly, the whole TRT debate makes me want to hang myself. People say his ratio was 18:1 and 6:1 is the legal level, so he has 3x the testosterone level of his opponent. Those numbers have nothing to do with how much testerone someone has in their system. It a way of catching synthetic testosterone. IE testosterone you body didn't make. All the guys on TRT will have high ratios, which do not help at all, it's just a side effect. Like if you have piss in your blood, you might have a kidney stone. The piss blood doesn't tell you if it's a bigger or smaller stone.

All that matters on TRT is what your total level is at the time of the test. Normal ranges for men based on age are 450-850. I don't know what the commission allows, but lets say they cap it at 1000. Anyone and everyone should be free then to increase their testosterone to the limit, no different than driving the speed limit. The guys that don't want to, don't have to.

If you don't think it's fair that a fighter can boost his testosterone to a high end of legal using TRT, then I've got some news for you. I don't think it's fair that Cain has the insane God given cardio that he has. I don't think it's fair that Brock was as big, strong, and athletic as he was. I don't think it's fair that Randy could still compete at a high level at age 48.

We all knew what we were getting when Overeem signed. And we all hoped he wouldn't get caught. He is an absolutely terrifying prospect when he's on all the juice. That's what people want. Bigger, stronger, faster.

I'm sure there are long term side effects and risks to many steroids if they are taken long enough. Just like there are with drinking too much alcohol, smoking too many cigarettes, and texting while driving.

I say, get the government out of sports, and back to starting wars with countries that have natural resources we want. Let the UFC, NFL, MLB, whoever police their own fighters however they see fit.

But, hey, I'm an American. Someone who believes in freedom, Jesus, family, and the right to pursue happiness.

I wish more people had a clue about how pervasive the drug culture is in competitive sports.

When I played HS football in the 90's I would guess 5-10% of the guys I played with were saucing. When I played junior in Canada probably 25% were. I can only imagine that ratio continues to increase.

PED in professional sports is endemic.

Personally I don't care.

I don't care Lance was juiced to the gills, in fact you had to be a moron to not know he was.

I don't care because it makes the sports more entertaining, it can prolong careers. The major unfortunate side effect is that there are some long term detriments to health and the guys who are not willing to gear up can get left behind.

Then again, being a high level athlete in just about any sport will wreck your body and create long term health problems.

At the end of the day I don't think it can be properly regulated, and the guys not willing to break the rules are the ones who are being punished.

BTW, Floyd Landis' solo ride in the 2006 tour, while geared off his dick, is one of the most amazing and entertaining athletic feats in all of sports!

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