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UnderGround Forums >> Serious PED question


2/4/13 11:05 PM
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Johnny D
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Why hasn't the use of EPO and blood transfusions found its way into MMA ??
Or has it ??

Blood doping is the practice of boosting the number of red blood cells in the bloodstream in order to enhance athletic performance. Because such blood cells carry oxygen from the lungs to the muscles, a higher concentration in the blood can improve an athlete’s aerobic capacity (VO2 max) and endurance.

Are MMA athletes even tested for this ?

Just seems to me that MMA athletes would stand to benefit greatly from this type of PED use, specially if its not tested for.

I'm not suggesting they should, just wondering if there is anyone knowledgable about EPO and blood transfusions and if its used in MMA, I would think that someone would have used blood transfusions because of its benefit on VO2 max and because its difficult to detect. Phone Post
2/4/13 11:32 PM
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Leghound
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Bumping it up as it's an interesting question
2/4/13 11:49 PM
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Johnny D
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For those not familiar with blood transfusions, In a blood transfusion, the athlete's own red blood cells are harvested well in advance of competition and then re-introduced before a critical event, For some time after the harvesting the athlete may be anemic, which is why the blood is harvested up to 28 days before an event.

A simple reintroduction of ones own blood will boost red blood cell count and thereby increase VO2 max.

erythropoietin (EPO). EPO is a naturally occurring hormone growth factor that stimulates the formation of red blood cells.
Easily injected under the skin, pharmaceutical EPO can boost hematocrit for six to twenty-four weeks, or longer.
Hematocrit is the volume percentage (%) of red blood cells in blood. Phone Post
2/4/13 11:59 PM
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Johnny D
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GableGrip - Because EPO is for endurance atheltes. MMA is a very anaerobic sport and it does not do much for an anaerobic athelte. Aerobic sports like triathlon, marathon, Tour de France will majorly benefit from EPO since red blood cells carry O2 molecules. EPO boosts red blood cells tremendously.

Testosterone and growth hormone are the PEDS for mma.

I have done both endurance sports, running, biking, ect.... All of which I mainly do now, and I have also boxed and participated in other combat sports.

I just don't understand how EPO and Blood transfusions wouldn't benefit an athlete like the one who participated in MMA.

An increase in oxygen uptake resulting from an increase in red blood cells would seem to me to be a big advantage in MMA, if not then why do fighters train at high altitude ?? Or sleep in oxygen tents ?? These are basically accomplishing the same thing, increasing red blood cells.
These methods are not as effective as EPO or blood transfusions. Phone Post
2/5/13 12:06 AM
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FSMA
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Johnny D - 
GableGrip - Because EPO is for endurance atheltes. MMA is a very anaerobic sport and it does not do much for an anaerobic athelte. Aerobic sports like triathlon, marathon, Tour de France will majorly benefit from EPO since red blood cells carry O2 molecules. EPO boosts red blood cells tremendously.

Testosterone and growth hormone are the PEDS for mma.

I have done both endurance sports, running, biking, ect.... All of which I mainly do now, and I have also boxed and participated in other combat sports.

I just don't understand how EPO and Blood transfusions wouldn't benefit an athlete like the one who participated in MMA.

An increase in oxygen uptake resulting from an increase in red blood cells would seem to me to be a big advantage in MMA, if not then why do fighters train at high altitude ?? Or sleep in oxygen tents ?? These are basically accomplishing the same thing, increasing red blood cells.
These methods are not as effective as EPO or blood transfusions. Phone Post

They would help tremendously. To say otherwise shows you don't know too much.

He's forgetting a really important part of the whole doping thing; Not only does it increase red blood cells/hematocrit....it helps remove lactic acid and carbon dioxide quicker too.
2/5/13 12:10 AM
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HexRei
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There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.
2/5/13 12:16 AM
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FSMA
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HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

Which is why cyclists would use a "speed bag". They would dilute their blood via saline or take salt tablets and chug tons of water. VOILA! hematocrit levels back downs and you're hydrated too.

They would do that and/or cycling really really hard to thin it back out. Either way works/worked.
2/5/13 12:29 AM
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Johnny D
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HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.
Very good point, I never really took into consideration cutting weight. But you are very correct in your statement. Phone Post
2/5/13 10:42 AM
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Johnny D
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Just a follow up post, after speaking with a friend that's rather "familiar" with EPO use, he told me that he believes that EPO could be used by MMA athletes to achieve a very substantial advantage in cardio over their opponent.

While EPO does indeed thicken the blood, and a substantial weight cut along with its use could be deadly, he said EPO is usually injected just moments before competition, since a fighter has 24 hours to re-adjust to hydration and weight, it's unlikely any dangers from cutting weight with its use would be of concern.

Of course that's only if the individual is being monitored by a physician to ensure that those types of safety precautions are being met.

Blood transfusions on the other hand, "while they would work" would have a different effect on the body that may not be beneficial to MMA in producing the desired result, not to mention that fresh visible track marks would be seen on the body as MMA fighters are mostly unclothed (another thing I didn't think about).

But for an individual that doesn't cut much weight and can adjust hydration and weight within 24 hours, it looks like EPO use could be of great advantage.

My whole point being I would be rather surprised that fighters are willing to risk taking something to boost performance that is tested for vs something that is not, if indeed blood doping is not tested for in MMA. Phone Post
2/5/13 11:28 AM
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TheParrot
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Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

2/5/13 12:13 PM
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Johnny D
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TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post
2/5/13 12:26 PM
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TheParrot
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Johnny D - 
TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post

I'm not sure what your point is.  You realize erythropoietin is a naturally occurring substance, right?  And that exogenous hormones will increase erythropoietin production, which will lead to an increase in hematocrit.  When my "friend" cruises on 250mg of testosterone his hematocrit is around 55% which is close to the level cyclists are looking for. 

Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids.

 

2/5/13 12:30 PM
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RickStorm
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Mixed Martial Arts LLC, Moderator

There is another thread made kinda recently about this.. had some interesting ideas and information.

Sorry I cant remember the title of thread to bumb for ya

2/5/13 12:42 PM
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Johnny D
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TheParrot -
Johnny D - 
TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post

I'm not sure what your point is.  You realize erythropoietin is a naturally occurring substance, right?  And that exogenous hormones will increase erythropoietin production, which will lead to an increase in hematocrit.  When my "friend" cruises on 250mg of testosterone his hematocrit is around 55% which is close to the level cyclists are looking for. 

Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids.

 

"Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids".

That last response from you was helpful as I am not familiar with steroid use or its effects, but my point is this, if they don't test for blood doping (EPO) and they do test for the roids, why use roids ?? Why chance getting busted for something that is tested for vs something that is not ?? Seeing that EPO can be beneficial. Phone Post
2/5/13 1:40 PM
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Johnny D
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TheParrot - 
Johnny D - 
TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post

I'm not sure what your point is.  You realize erythropoietin is a naturally occurring substance, right?  And that exogenous hormones will increase erythropoietin production, which will lead to an increase in hematocrit.  When my "friend" cruises on 250mg of testosterone his hematocrit is around 55% which is close to the level cyclists are looking for. 

Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids.

 


"Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids".

After thinking on that and not feeling it was correct I came up with this, it seems you can't get the desired VO2 max results with Roids like you can with EPO.

A study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine for example followed the hematological effects of steroid use in a group of 5 power athletes over a period of 26 weeks, and compared them a control group of 6 non-using men. During this study an average increase of 9.6% was noted in hematocrit values in the steroid using athletes, compared to no change in the control group. The change in hematocrit of course was far from the mark that was recorded with the mechanical blood doping procedure, yet it is still an elevation worthy of note.

We did however NOT SEE an overall positive change in this study that would be indicative of enhanced aerobic performance, due to the fact that hemoglobin (the pigment agent of red blood cells responsible for the transport of oxygen) levels did not rise significantly enough.

Another study published in the same journal noted better results though, this time looking at the effects of long-term methandrostenolone treatment on six bodybuilders. The dosage used was a maximum of 20mg per day, which the subjects had taken in intermittent cycles for a year or more. Investigators reported increases in both hemoglobin and hematocrit, which were quite elevated in one subject in particular. Although not directly looking at maximum oxygen uptake capacity, these studies do make evident, at least the possibility, that anabolic agents might enhance aerobic capacity under the right conditions.

Although clearly NOT AS EFFECTIVE as mechanical blood doping, or even the newer practice of erythropoietin injections, anabolic/androgenic steroids still do enhance Red Blood Cell concentrations. Whether or not this will consistently equate into an increase in aerobic capacity in healthy athletes remains a matter of speculation and debate, however their base effect on the process of erythropoiesis does not.



2/5/13 2:04 PM
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eljamaiquino
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The top ones already are. if you're already rehdrating via IV, why not put some epo or stored blood in there? test cream, gh, and EPO for the win. Test cream & gh in camp, & epo/ blood dope after making weight. Yould never fail a test. Phone Post
2/5/13 3:00 PM
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TheParrot
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Johnny D - 
TheParrot - 
Johnny D - 
TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post

I'm not sure what your point is.  You realize erythropoietin is a naturally occurring substance, right?  And that exogenous hormones will increase erythropoietin production, which will lead to an increase in hematocrit.  When my "friend" cruises on 250mg of testosterone his hematocrit is around 55% which is close to the level cyclists are looking for. 

Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids.

 


"Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids".

After thinking on that and not feeling it was correct I came up with this, it seems you can't get the desired VO2 max results with Roids like you can with EPO.

A study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine for example followed the hematological effects of steroid use in a group of 5 power athletes over a period of 26 weeks, and compared them a control group of 6 non-using men. During this study an average increase of 9.6% was noted in hematocrit values in the steroid using athletes, compared to no change in the control group. The change in hematocrit of course was far from the mark that was recorded with the mechanical blood doping procedure, yet it is still an elevation worthy of note.

We did however NOT SEE an overall positive change in this study that would be indicative of enhanced aerobic performance, due to the fact that hemoglobin (the pigment agent of red blood cells responsible for the transport of oxygen) levels did not rise significantly enough.

Another study published in the same journal noted better results though, this time looking at the effects of long-term methandrostenolone treatment on six bodybuilders. The dosage used was a maximum of 20mg per day, which the subjects had taken in intermittent cycles for a year or more. Investigators reported increases in both hemoglobin and hematocrit, which were quite elevated in one subject in particular. Although not directly looking at maximum oxygen uptake capacity, these studies do make evident, at least the possibility, that anabolic agents might enhance aerobic capacity under the right conditions.

Although clearly NOT AS EFFECTIVE as mechanical blood doping, or even the newer practice of erythropoietin injections, anabolic/androgenic steroids still do enhance Red Blood Cell concentrations. Whether or not this will consistently equate into an increase in aerobic capacity in healthy athletes remains a matter of speculation and debate, however their base effect on the process of erythropoiesis does not.




Yes, taking straight EPO will get your crit levels much higher, but that's also a double edge sword since the higher they go the more dangerous. 

What is the preferred hematocrit levels?  As I mentioned above, my friend was at 55% on his normal (non cycle) cruise amount.  How much higher do you want to go?  That study above used 20mg of dbol. I've never heard anyone dose it that low. 

If an athlete can not figure out how to use testosterone and pass a drug test, then (imo) he's not smart enough to use EPO.  

2/5/13 7:00 PM
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Johnny D
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I was kind of hoping there would be more info out there pertaining to EPO use in MMA, wether for or against it and the reasons why.

I'll close out with this testimony,

"What does being on EPO feel like? It feels great, mostly because it doesn’t feel like anything at all. You’re not wiped out. You feel healthy, normal, strong. You have more color in your cheeks; you’re less grumpy, more fun to be around. These little clear drops work like radio signals— they instruct your bone marrow to create more red blood cells (RBCs), and soon millions more are filling up your veins, carrying oxygen to your muscles. Everything else about your body is the same, except now you have better fuel. You can go harder, longer. That holy place at the edge of your limits gets nudged out— and not just a little".

"People think doping is for lazy people who want to avoid hard work. That might be true in some cases, but in mine, as with many athletes I knew, it was precisely the opposite. EPO granted the ability to suffer more; to push yourself farther and harder than you’d ever imagined, in both training and competition. It rewarded precisely what I needed, having a great work ethic, pushing myself to the limit and past it. Instantly, my results began to improve; I went from getting C’s and D’s to getting A’s and B’s".

It's not that you were bad before EPO, maybe you were a Mustang, fast as hell, after EPO you are formula one, elite, and the gas tank doesn't go dry.










2/16/13 1:06 PM
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TheParrot
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bumping for op, came across this article this morning from one of my preferred writers...

 

http://www.totalflexblog.com/articles/steroids-athletic-performance-and-red-blood-cells-part-1-of-2/#more-6516

2/16/13 1:18 PM
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MacGowan
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Sometimes, im amazed at what i can learn on this site. Interesting stuff here. Thanks. Phone Post
2/16/13 1:36 PM
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LastRowCarl
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Good thread, and people who actually know a thing or two...
I enjoy threads that dont end up with
"Daahh ePo dats trting and thats cheating no trting no bad no blood trt NO" Phone Post
2/17/13 10:00 AM
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Johnny D
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TheParrot -

bumping for op, came across this article this morning from one of my preferred writers...

 

http://www.totalflexblog.com/articles/steroids-athletic-performance-and-red-blood-cells-part-1-of-2/#more-6516

Great article, thanks for the link. Phone Post
2/17/13 10:31 AM
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BshMstr
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HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

this.

the OP is clearly trying to argue how effective this is, and ignoring the obvious issue with cutting weight....

and as mentioned above, HRT/TRT does increase RBC and WBC as well....
2/17/13 10:48 AM
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BshMstr
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Johnny D, i belive exogeneous EPO is a banned substance, but like hGH, isn't really enforced.



for the record, i agree with it's ability to increase performance.... for an athlete that doesn't cut weight, i could see where it could be extremely beneficial.

but for an athlete making a 20-25 lb water cut, and the immediate rehydration, this could be really quite dangerous, IMO.
2/17/13 10:50 AM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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UFC hasn't been interested in cracking down on PEDs. They have only been interested in giving the impression they are strict on PEDs. Phone Post

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