UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Serious PED question


2/17/13 11:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mica Kizbig
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/30/06
Posts: 6414
Johnny D -  Just a follow up post, after speaking with a friend that's rather "familiar" with EPO use, he told me that he believes that EPO could be used by MMA athletes to achieve a very substantial advantage in cardio over their opponent.

While EPO does indeed thicken the blood, and a substantial weight cut along with its use could be deadly, he said EPO is usually injected just moments before competition, since a fighter has 24 hours to re-adjust to hydration and weight, it's unlikely any dangers from cutting weight with its use would be of concern.

Of course that's only if the individual is being monitored by a physician to ensure that those types of safety precautions are being met.

Blood transfusions on the other hand, "while they would work" would have a different effect on the body that may not be beneficial to MMA in producing the desired result, not to mention that fresh visible track marks would be seen on the body as MMA fighters are mostly unclothed (another thing I didn't think about).

But for an individual that doesn't cut much weight and can adjust hydration and weight within 24 hours, it looks like EPO use could be of great advantage.

My whole point being I would be rather surprised that fighters are willing to risk taking something to boost performance that is tested for vs something that is not, if indeed blood doping is not tested for in MMA. Phone Post

EPO is not taken moments before competition. Part of the reason it is so hard to test for is that its taken weeks before competition. EPO has already diminished in the system but its effects are present for months later.
2/17/13 11:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
lyonsden
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/13/07
Posts: 40
ttt

I've recently been wondering about this exact issue, but don't know enough on it to think it through completely. Thanks to OP and others for offering these valuable insights.
2/17/13 4:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Johnny D
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/11/11
Posts: 768
BshMstr - 
HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

this.

the OP is clearly trying to argue how effective this is, and ignoring the obvious issue with cutting weight....

and as mentioned above, HRT/TRT does increase RBC and WBC as well....

I am not ignoring anything, just trying to acquire some knowledge as to EPO's possible use and benefits in MMA.

HexRei provided some good info as to why EPO could be dangerous, I simply countered with the suggestion that if you don't cut much weight or you time the use of EPO maybe there is a possible benefit (and safe benefit) to it's use.

I definitely walked away from the thread with a better understanding of the subject of PED use in MMA because of what others brought to the thread.

2/17/13 4:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Johnny D
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/11/11
Posts: 769
Mica Kizbig - 
Johnny D -  Just a follow up post, after speaking with a friend that's rather "familiar" with EPO use, he told me that he believes that EPO could be used by MMA athletes to achieve a very substantial advantage in cardio over their opponent.

While EPO does indeed thicken the blood, and a substantial weight cut along with its use could be deadly, he said EPO is usually injected just moments before competition, since a fighter has 24 hours to re-adjust to hydration and weight, it's unlikely any dangers from cutting weight with its use would be of concern.

Of course that's only if the individual is being monitored by a physician to ensure that those types of safety precautions are being met.

Blood transfusions on the other hand, "while they would work" would have a different effect on the body that may not be beneficial to MMA in producing the desired result, not to mention that fresh visible track marks would be seen on the body as MMA fighters are mostly unclothed (another thing I didn't think about).

But for an individual that doesn't cut much weight and can adjust hydration and weight within 24 hours, it looks like EPO use could be of great advantage.

My whole point being I would be rather surprised that fighters are willing to risk taking something to boost performance that is tested for vs something that is not, if indeed blood doping is not tested for in MMA. Phone Post

EPO is not taken moments before competition. Part of the reason it is so hard to test for is that its taken weeks before competition. EPO has already diminished in the system but its effects are present for months later.

I have read from professional athletes that in some sports it is taken just before competition, I wonder if it's efficacy is dependent on the timing of it being administered and if the timing of it's taking for maximum benefit is dependent on the sport ??

Some Sporting events like the Tour De France require a more immediate application being a very long (three week) sporting event, other sports may not require this type application because of the duration of the event ??

Not sure, just some things I was wondering about.

2/17/13 5:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Topsyjt
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/10
Posts: 457
In for later guys. Nice thread. Good convo going on TTT.
Hopefully get a chance to cmmt on CERA and how presently there isn't a way to detect autologous transfusions. Only detectable markets are " plasticiser " from a IV bag.
Again. Nice thread guys. Phone Post
2/17/13 7:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ranier wolfcastle
950 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/28/03
Posts: 60026

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER

2/17/13 9:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Topsyjt
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/10
Posts: 458
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 

2/17/13 9:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blaznbison24
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/7/07
Posts: 910
Isn't CERA tagged?
2/18/13 10:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 1371
Johnny D - 
Mica Kizbig - 
Johnny D -  Just a follow up post, after speaking with a friend that's rather "familiar" with EPO use, he told me that he believes that EPO could be used by MMA athletes to achieve a very substantial advantage in cardio over their opponent.

While EPO does indeed thicken the blood, and a substantial weight cut along with its use could be deadly, he said EPO is usually injected just moments before competition, since a fighter has 24 hours to re-adjust to hydration and weight, it's unlikely any dangers from cutting weight with its use would be of concern.

Of course that's only if the individual is being monitored by a physician to ensure that those types of safety precautions are being met.

Blood transfusions on the other hand, "while they would work" would have a different effect on the body that may not be beneficial to MMA in producing the desired result, not to mention that fresh visible track marks would be seen on the body as MMA fighters are mostly unclothed (another thing I didn't think about).

But for an individual that doesn't cut much weight and can adjust hydration and weight within 24 hours, it looks like EPO use could be of great advantage.

My whole point being I would be rather surprised that fighters are willing to risk taking something to boost performance that is tested for vs something that is not, if indeed blood doping is not tested for in MMA. Phone Post

EPO is not taken moments before competition. Part of the reason it is so hard to test for is that its taken weeks before competition. EPO has already diminished in the system but its effects are present for months later.

I have read from professional athletes that in some sports it is taken just before competition, I wonder if it's efficacy is dependent on the timing of it being administered and if the timing of it's taking for maximum benefit is dependent on the sport ??

Some Sporting events like the Tour De France require a more immediate application being a very long (three week) sporting event, other sports may not require this type application because of the duration of the event ??

Not sure, just some things I was wondering about.


it can take 2-6 weeks to produce red blood cells after using EPO....

2/18/13 11:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 1373
Johnny D - 
BshMstr - 
HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

this.

the OP is clearly trying to argue how effective this is, and ignoring the obvious issue with cutting weight....

and as mentioned above, HRT/TRT does increase RBC and WBC as well....

I am not ignoring anything, just trying to acquire some knowledge as to EPO's possible use and benefits in MMA.

HexRei provided some good info as to why EPO could be dangerous, I simply countered with the suggestion that if you don't cut much weight or you time the use of EPO maybe there is a possible benefit (and safe benefit) to it's use.

I definitely walked away from the thread with a better understanding of the subject of PED use in MMA because of what others brought to the thread.


my apologies in sounding harsh...i think i have a better approach to using EPO in MMA...

for the most part, i simply don't think it's very useful for the average MMA athlete. most of them cut a lot of wieght (that issue has already been addressed).

EPO would prolly need some medical monitoring, to ensure that hemocrit levels have been raised sufficiently, but are not too high. also, this would need to be started at least 6 weeks out from the fight.... and this would prolly be pretty expensive, something the average fighter wouldn't be able to afford very often.

one of the other issues with adminstering EPO, is making sure that it's REAL EPO....a lot of atheltes that get busted for PED's aren't busted because they didn't know they used somethign illegal (or their "dr" prescribed it for joint issues), it's that they bought something that wasn't what they said.... Ben Johnson's coaches allegedly thought they were giving him hGH (not Winstrol) prior to the Olympics...

right now, it's pretty easy to get a TRT TUE in the UFC.... for the most part, that's simply easier for most guys. yeah, it won't be as effective as EPO in boosting endurance, but it will still be pretty effective, while being completly legal.


i have no experience in using EPO, but the only way i really see it being worthwhile for a MMA athlete, would be for a guy that a) doesn't do a large weight cut, b) has a style conducive to a long, grinding fight where he would benefit from the RBC, c) the fighter KNOWS that the EPO is legit, and has a cost effective way of dosing and monitoring it, d) the athlete won't be able to get a TUE for TRT at this time and e) is at the point in their career where taking a banned substance is worth the risk....


just my .02


2/18/13 12:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Topsyjt
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/10
Posts: 459
blaznbison24 - Isn't CERA tagged?

I'm not sure sir, my understanding is that CERA was for the most part undetectable.  However, they all have trace markers... like the Plasticiser, that is tracable from the IV bag.  They can also date the diferent cells ages.  How realible this is, I have no idea, perhaps too many athletes give false positives, hence the current no viable testing procedure.  I'm sure though, the Rocha (CERA manafaturer) will aid the Anti-Doping agencies to make a legally reliable testing procedure.  

Good thread, good questions bing raised.

2/18/13 12:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BlackJesus
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9496
Topsyjt - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?

2/18/13 3:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Topsyjt
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/10
Posts: 460
BlackJesus - 
Topsyjt - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?


Blackjesus,

 
Good question. I'm unaware of any scientific evidence supporting altitude like properties or gains other than anecdotal.  Doesn't mean there aren't any, more that I'm just old, blind & stupid.
 
I will have a good look for you. I have contact details for "The Altitude Centre" here in uk. I'll send them info and ask directly. As I will for the training mask, which I'm extremely tempted to buy (purely as a sex tool). 
 
Main difference I can see is training mask works on limited O2, via hypoxia. Much like using say using a swimming pool for underwater swimming and some  kettlebells creating huge Oxygen debt, thus forcing Cardiorespiratory system to become more efficient at using whatever it has. Where as Hyberbaric or CERA / EPO actually reproduce more RBC that ur crying out for during this Hypoxic Underwater session. 
 
I will get back to you on this though. Good question. 
2/18/13 4:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BlackJesus
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9498
Topsyjt -
BlackJesus - 
Topsyjt - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?


Blackjesus,

 
Good question. I'm unaware of any scientific evidence supporting altitude like properties or gains other than anecdotal.  Doesn't mean there aren't any, more that I'm just old, blind & stupid.
 
I will have a good look for you. I have contact details for "The Altitude Centre" here in uk. I'll send them info and ask directly. As I will for the training mask, which I'm extremely tempted to buy (purely as a sex tool). 
 
Main difference I can see is training mask works on limited O2, via hypoxia. Much like using say using a swimming pool for underwater swimming and some  kettlebells creating huge Oxygen debt, thus forcing Cardiorespiratory system to become more efficient at using whatever it has. Where as Hyberbaric or CERA / EPO actually reproduce more RBC that ur crying out for during this Hypoxic Underwater session. 
 
I will get back to you on this though. Good question. 
Thanks a lot Phone Post
2/18/13 8:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Johnny D
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/11/11
Posts: 770
BshMstr - 
Johnny D - 
BshMstr - 
HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

this.

the OP is clearly trying to argue how effective this is, and ignoring the obvious issue with cutting weight....

and as mentioned above, HRT/TRT does increase RBC and WBC as well....

I am not ignoring anything, just trying to acquire some knowledge as to EPO's possible use and benefits in MMA.

HexRei provided some good info as to why EPO could be dangerous, I simply countered with the suggestion that if you don't cut much weight or you time the use of EPO maybe there is a possible benefit (and safe benefit) to it's use.

I definitely walked away from the thread with a better understanding of the subject of PED use in MMA because of what others brought to the thread.


my apologies in sounding harsh...i think i have a better approach to using EPO in MMA...

for the most part, i simply don't think it's very useful for the average MMA athlete. most of them cut a lot of wieght (that issue has already been addressed).

EPO would prolly need some medical monitoring, to ensure that hemocrit levels have been raised sufficiently, but are not too high. also, this would need to be started at least 6 weeks out from the fight.... and this would prolly be pretty expensive, something the average fighter wouldn't be able to afford very often.

one of the other issues with adminstering EPO, is making sure that it's REAL EPO....a lot of atheltes that get busted for PED's aren't busted because they didn't know they used somethign illegal (or their "dr" prescribed it for joint issues), it's that they bought something that wasn't what they said.... Ben Johnson's coaches allegedly thought they were giving him hGH (not Winstrol) prior to the Olympics...

right now, it's pretty easy to get a TRT TUE in the UFC.... for the most part, that's simply easier for most guys. yeah, it won't be as effective as EPO in boosting endurance, but it will still be pretty effective, while being completly legal.


i have no experience in using EPO, but the only way i really see it being worthwhile for a MMA athlete, would be for a guy that a) doesn't do a large weight cut, b) has a style conducive to a long, grinding fight where he would benefit from the RBC, c) the fighter KNOWS that the EPO is legit, and has a cost effective way of dosing and monitoring it, d) the athlete won't be able to get a TUE for TRT at this time and e) is at the point in their career where taking a banned substance is worth the risk....


just my .02



Thanks for the info, good stuff.
2/18/13 8:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Johnny D
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/11/11
Posts: 771
there are two ways of artificially increasing haemoglobin mass: by taking EPO or by blood transfusion. The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) defines blood doping as “The misuse of certain techniques and/or substances to increase one’s red blood cell mass, which allows the body to transport more O2 to muscles and therefore increase stamina and performance.”

The Fick Equation

For those of you who took sports physiology 101 you might remember the Fick Equation, which is basically the measurement of cardiac output.

The Fick equation determines the rate at which a person uses oxygen in their body – which is also known as VO2 (the volume of oxygen uptake).

O2max = Qmax X a-vO2max.

This states that the maximum rate of oxygen uptake is (O2max) is the product of a high cardiac output (Q) and a wide difference for arterial-venous oxygen (a-vO2) (the oxygen content in the arterial and venous blood)

At the heart of success in endurance sport is aerobic capacity (excuse the pun). Improvements in aerobic capacity are relative to how much blood the heart pumps out to the working skeletal muscles with every beat.

Aerobic Capacity is also referred to as VO2Max. Someone like Greg Lemond has a massive stroke volume and VO2max of 92.5 ml/kg/min. The 2012 junior time trial world champion Oskar Svendsen is reported to have the highest VO2 Max ever recorded in a human at 97.5ml/kg/min. The highest recorded VO2 max for Lance Armstrong is 84 ml/kg/min and Cadel Evans 88 ml/kg/min. A high VO2 max doesn’t guarantee success, but is often used as a key indicator.

VO2 max is often expressed as a relative rate in millilitres of oxygen per kilogram of bodyweight per minute (ml/kg/min).

The only variables in VO2max that you can manipulate to improve it is by reducing your bodyweight, or increasing your haemoglobin mass.

Athletes can either cheat by injecting EPO or transfuse red blood cells to elevate the haemoglobin mass. Both will achieve the same endpoint.
Unlike the slow rise in hematocrit created by EPO, transfusions provided an instant boost of around 3 points.
To provide the most efficient red blood cell production, EPO should be kept at a steady level of approximately x to y mU/mL above baseline levels. Higher levels lead to EPO wastage, and lower levels cause inefficient red blood cell production.

There are a couple different strategies when taking EPO. There is the high dosage (X UI per kilogramo of body weight 3 times per week) strategy which athletes use to elevate blood levels but is much more easily detected.

The low dose strategy is called micro-dosing and involves the athlete using high dosages of EPO initially to get his levels up, and then maintains them with low dosages. Recent studies in which EPO was applied to test subjects in lower dosages showed that O2 max is increased by 6%-12% when the hematocrit is increased to approximately 0.50 but also demonstrated that time to exhaustion (in the lab) at a given level of O2 max is increased by up to 50%.

There are two ways to blood dope, each having the same physiological effect. From the athlete’s side, the doping is the easy part. Not getting caught it more difficult.
2/18/13 8:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Johnny D
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/11/11
Posts: 772
The next step forward in terms of cheating in endurance competition is very likely to come from the genetic arena. Could this be the holy grail of doping?

Everything in medicine has moved towards targeted therapy. In cancer treatment, for example, doctors no longer just use chemotherapy to target both the normal and abnormal cells. Because they have a better understanding of the mechanisms involved in the disease, they can target, more specifically, the abnormality itself. The consequence – or side effect, whichever way you look at it – is that you can use targeted therapy to your benefit.

Recent studies suggest it may be possible to introduce another EPO gene into an animal in order to increase EPO production endogenously – that is, by getting the body to produce more EPO on its own.

A benefit of EPO gene therapy is that it can consistently elevate red blood cell production, rather than providing a short-term burst as with injecting EPO or blood doping. As a result EPO gene therapy is less likely to be picked up using a regular biological passport technique or by testing urine samples.

Given its potential for enhancing performance, gene doping was banned by the International Olympic Committee in 2003. Despite the ban, athletes and coaches may be using gene-targeting therapies. The effects of gene doping in healthy humans aren’t currently known. But healthy animals have suffered drastic side effects, from fatal anemia caused by an immune reaction to blood vessels clogged with overproduced blood cells.

HIF and HIF stabilisers,

The most important mediators of the cellular response to hypoxia are “transcription factors” (proteins which influence which genes are used in which cell) called HIFs (or hypoxia-inducible factors).

HIF activates the genes that influence adaptive responses to hypoxia, including:

- the production of EPO
- the way the cells generate energy
- the creation of veins and blood vessels (called VEGF: vascular endothelial growth factor)
- the supply of iron (important for red cell production).

From this list, it is clear that the HIFs have the potential to improve the performance of an athlete. Does that mean administering HIFs will have an immediate effect on performance?

The short answer is no, because the HIFs are targeted for degradation in the absence of sustained blood hypoxia, so providing an external source isn’t the best way to increase their activity. Instead HIF stabilisers can be used to prolong the activity of the HIFs and provide ongoing production of natural EPO when there is no biological need for it (i.e. when oxygen levels are normal in the blood).

HIFs also stimulate the formation of new blood vessels (a process called angiogenesis) and therefore HIF stabilisers will improve this process. For an endurance athlete, this means more blood vessels supplying the muscle, which are normally generated over time in response to training.

By using HIF stabilisers, an athlete may be able to decrease the training period required to improve the blood supply to the muscles from weeks or months to a matter of days. Think about this: More oxygen-rich blood being delivered to more blood vessels generated within new muscle tissue. Add to this an improvement in carbohydrate metabolism and you have a very attractive performance-enhancing drug. You can quickly see the consequences (or benefits) here.

HIF stabilisers are still being developed for routine use in humans but they are being tested in clinical trials now. These drugs are small chemical compounds that can be delivered in an oral pill and they are difficult to detect in blood and urine samples.

When we exercise to our limits, approximately 90% of our oxygen is being sent to the muscles being used. The remainder is sent to the brain, heart, and gut. When the body has already maximised the oxygen supply, the only way to improve performance is to blood dope.

EPO gene therapy is certainly possible but much remains unexplored with respect to efficacy, safety, and the way it affects the immune system. Thankfully, gene therapy doesn’t appear to have entered the sports scene yet, but is it only a matter of time?
2/19/13 10:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 1375
BlackJesus - 
Topsyjt - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?


i've seen these, gas masks, etc...

they wouldn't mimic high altitude, but i can see them increasing the percieved rate of exertion, and maybe strnegthening the diaphram and maybe increasing lung capacity? not sure if most of that's really possible on a healthy athlete...

one issue i have with these, is that one simply wouldn't be able to work out as hard....
2/19/13 11:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 1376
^one of the thigns i always that that was weird about Wanderlei using a snorkle in training, was that he was teaching himself to breath through his mouth instead of his nose, which would be counterproductive for a fighter wearing a mouthpiece...
2/19/13 11:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BlackJesus
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9501

 

2/19/13 11:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blaznbison24
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/7/07
Posts: 916
The creators of CERA worked with drug testing agencies to make a test for it. When they retested old samples, a lot of people got busted for it, including Olympic Gold Medalists. CERA is very detectable. I wish more drug companies would tag their drugs.

That mask is a scam that doesn't do a thing.
2/19/13 1:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ingrained Media
185 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/06
Posts: 2183
I think the reason you do not see it is the reward is not the same as it would be in say winning the Tour De France. Being the GOAT of MMA means you can wear funny sweaters and no one will ever say anything to your face about it. However the cost involved in high level PED use is reserved for the guys that can afford the Victor Conte's of the world.
2/19/13 1:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MattyECB
191 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/4/11
Posts: 1572
TheParrot - 
Johnny D - 
TheParrot -

Steroids provide enough of a bump in epo production along with muscle strength making epo injections moot.

We are NOT looking for a "bump in EPO". The desired result is a rise in Hematocrit.

And as far as I know only EPO can do this, once again if they are testing for certain steroids and not EPO why would you chance using something that is tested for vs something that is not ??

Being familiar with endurance sports myself I just find it hard to believe that the MMA world is not familiar with EPO use. Phone Post

I'm not sure what your point is.  You realize erythropoietin is a naturally occurring substance, right?  And that exogenous hormones will increase erythropoietin production, which will lead to an increase in hematocrit.  When my "friend" cruises on 250mg of testosterone his hematocrit is around 55% which is close to the level cyclists are looking for. 

Why bother with exogenous erythropoietin when you can get the desired results along with the anabolic results with steroids.

 


You do realize autologous (yourself to yourself) blood transfusions are also adding something that is clearly natural, your own blood, lol

EPO and autologous transfusions have a much much more pronounced effect on the concentration of erythrocytes in your blood, than anabolic steroids. They're specifically targeting a type of enhancement you're interested in.

Why use an upstream mediator to signal EPO production when you can straight up add EPO...

Along that reasoning, why use the upstream mediator EPO to add erythrocytes when you can straight up inject yourself with erythrocytes lol



Not to mention, IIRC, anabolic steroids can also cause a host of other hematologic disorders. Makes sense people only interested in cardio would choose it specifically, especially if they want to stick to blood doping and not worry about the danger of bad roid-cycling getting you to piss hot.

HGH is another easy to avoid getting caught supplement, but unlike EPO reaaaally fucks your body up... not that getting polycythemia and brutal thrombotic pathologies don't suck, but at least your face won't morph into Tito's forehead
2/19/13 1:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MattyECB
191 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/4/11
Posts: 1573
Johnny D -  Why hasn't the use of EPO and blood transfusions found its way into MMA ??
Or has it ??

Blood doping is the practice of boosting the number of red blood cells in the bloodstream in order to enhance athletic performance. Because such blood cells carry oxygen from the lungs to the muscles, a higher concentration in the blood can improve an athlete’s aerobic capacity (VO2 max) and endurance.

Are MMA athletes even tested for this ?

Just seems to me that MMA athletes would stand to benefit greatly from this type of PED use, specially if its not tested for.

I'm not suggesting they should, just wondering if there is anyone knowledgable about EPO and blood transfusions and if its used in MMA, I would think that someone would have used blood transfusions because of its benefit on VO2 max and because its difficult to detect. Phone Post

Oh and to answer your question, I'm pretty sure no...

I do know that urine tests can track eyrthropoiesis-stimulating agents, but I'm almost sure they don't use those or do specific EPO or blood doping tests.
2/19/13 1:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MattyECB
191 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/4/11
Posts: 1574
HexRei - There is a benefit (and fighters possibly do use blood doping... however it's not tested for so it doesn't matter too much) but there is one major reason to not use blood doping in MMA.

In sports where weight cutting is important, cutting water thus becomes common and necessary. One side effect of cutting water is thickening of blood since all the solids in the blood are still present but moisture is removed. If you are an athlete who doesn't need to worry about making a certain weight this isn't a problem, but suddenly artificially reintroducing a lot of red blood cells, paired with suddenly reducing the amount of moisture in the blood by a level that can be dangerous in some cases even completely disregarding blood doping, can cause clots, heart attacks, and strokes.

Good point, one of the biggest dangers of diuretics is pseudo/relative (so just fake) polycythemia. If your dehydrated and your plasma disappears, even with a constant level of RBCs, the % or hematocrit spikes and can cause serious serious fuckups.

Makes alot of sense, that the serious weight cutters or diuretics users would be afraid to add to that...

Course they're probably also too stupid to know about any of this, or to reckless to care lol

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.