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UnderGround Forums >> Serious PED question


2/19/13 1:35 PM
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MattyECB
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Topsyjt - 
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a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?


Blackjesus,

 
Good question. I'm unaware of any scientific evidence supporting altitude like properties or gains other than anecdotal.  Doesn't mean there aren't any, more that I'm just old, blind & stupid.
 
I will have a good look for you. I have contact details for "The Altitude Centre" here in uk. I'll send them info and ask directly. As I will for the training mask, which I'm extremely tempted to buy (purely as a sex tool). 
 
Main difference I can see is training mask works on limited O2, via hypoxia. Much like using say using a swimming pool for underwater swimming and some  kettlebells creating huge Oxygen debt, thus forcing Cardiorespiratory system to become more efficient at using whatever it has. Where as Hyberbaric or CERA / EPO actually reproduce more RBC that ur crying out for during this Hypoxic Underwater session. 
 
I will get back to you on this though. Good question. 

I hate how many people fall for this shit, and that the UG supports this product -- although I love the UG so fuckit, let them get sponsored by whatever.

But here's a scientific article that will perfectly answer your question --> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12162862

(Chose a review that's not too heavy on the science or testing so it's nicer to quote, and if you want any more proof, there are a ton of articles I've read that all support the Oxygen Mask's absolute uselesness so I can link more)

Intermittent hypoxic training: fact and fancy.
(From NCBI, sourced from -- Institute for Exercise and Environmental Medicine, Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas University of Texas)


Formatting done myself for emphasis, focus on the *** paragraphs from this abstract:

Intermittent hypoxic training (IHT) refers to the discontinuous use of normobaric or hypobaric hypoxia, in an attempt to reproduce some of the key features of altitude acclimatization, with the ultimate goal to improve sea-level athletic performance.
In general, IHT can be divided into two different strategies: (1) providing hypoxia at rest with the primary goal being to stimulate altitude acclimatization or

(2) providing hypoxia during exercise, with the primary goal being to enhance the training stimulus. Each approach has many different possible application strategies, with the essential variable among them being the "dose" of hypoxia necessary to achieve the desired effect.

***One approach, called living high-training low, has been shown to improve sea-level endurance performance. This strategy combines altitude acclimatization (2500 m) with low altitude training to ensure high-quality training.

***The opposite strategy, living low-training high, has also been proposed by some investigators. The primacy of the altitude acclimatization effect in IHT is demonstrated by the following facts:

(1) living high-training low clearly improves performance in athletes of all abilities,
(2) the mechanism of this improvement is primarily an increase in erythropoietin, leading to increased red cell mass, V(O2max), and running performance, and

*******************(3) rather than intensifying the training stimulus, training at altitude or under hypoxia leads to the opposite effect - reduced speeds, reduced power output, reduced oxygen flux - and therefore is not likely to provide any advantage for a well-trained athlete.
2/19/13 1:41 PM
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MattyECB
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So to summarize a few of those points.

Intermittent hypoxia, i.e. transient periods of Oxygen deprivation, is a means of mimicking altitude acclimation. Where your body has to produce more RBCs to increase it's capacity to carry O2.

You CAN use brief periods of Oxygen deprivation to increase training, but only if you alter high altitude training with low altitude training. Or have rest periods of low altitude after high altitude training.

Training at low altitude while trying to reduce Oxygen intake not only doesn't increase your O2 carrying capacity, but as the final point (3) explains, it fucks up your training,
"rather than intensifying the training stimulus, training at altitude or under hypoxia leads to the opposite effect - reduced speeds, reduced power output, reduced oxygen flux - and therefore is not likely to provide any advantage for a well-trained athlete."

I can link someone the full article if anyone wants and PMs me. And this one is kinda awkward now that I've read the full thing. I can also link a better one that directly tests Oxygen masks like these shitty ones, and finds absolutely no improvement in performance, and again, an actual reduction in ability.


The only benefit whatsoever, and this is a reach IMHO, is that it can help you deal with a tougher situation and claustrophobia, but it's entirely mental and has no physical effect on you, or at least no positive one
2/19/13 1:55 PM
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MattyECB
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So to be clear, there are no fucking effects in your blood on using O2 masks. What about other effects, maybe it helps your muscle formation or endurance? Well, here's another article.
And sorry for the FRAT, but anyone with an interest in the science behind training will appreciate this and I'll be happy if I can save one guy from shelling out cash on this shit lol

(From --> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23305980)
Influence of intermittent hypoxic training on muscle energetics and exercise tolerance.




- "Intermittent hypoxic training (IHT) is sometimes used by athletes to enhance 'non-hematological' physiological adaptations to simulated altitude. We investigated whether IHT would result in greater improvements in muscle energetics and exercise tolerance compared to work-matched intermittent normoxic training (INT)."

-- Translation: Ppl use Oxygen deprivation to mimick non blood-related adaptation to high altitude....
Well alot of retards to it to mimick hematological (blood-related) adaptation, but that's been disproven a long time ago so only foolish MMA fighters who follow these O2 masks do that.
As for athletes in a proper training environment, they still try to use this shit for non blood related improvements, and do these help?....


- "Before and after the training intervention, the subjects completed a test protocol consisting of a bout of sub-maximal constant-work-rate exercise, a 24 s high-intensity exercise bout to quantify the phosphocreatine recovery time constant ([PCr]-?), and an incremental test to the limit of tolerance. The tests were completed in normoxia and hypoxia, in both the INT and IHT legs. Muscle metabolism was assessed non-invasively using (31)P-magnetic resonance spectroscopy. "

-- Translation: They tested low level, constant exercise to see how cardio-focused training is affect, and they also tested very short high intensity exercises to quantify how quickly phosphocreatine recovers.
For those who aren't nerds, phosphocreatine is kinda like a reserve supply of energy that is used during intense anaerobic type exercises. By testing the recovery they see how well your body handles intense exercise stress.
Finally, they they used stepwise increases in exercise intensity to measure tolerance to muscle stress, and the spectroscopy shit is just a means to measure muscle activity.

Oh and INT Vs. IHT just means they did all this comparing NORMOXIC to HYPOXIC conditions
(Normo so normal Vs. Hypo so less -- Oxic so oxygen)


And the results:

- "Improvements in the time-to-exhaustion during incremental exercise were not significantly different between training conditions either in normoxia (INT: 28 ± 20 vs. IHT: 25 ± 9 %, P=0.86) or hypoxia (INT: 21 ± 10 vs. IHT: 15 ± 11 %, P=0.29).
In hypoxia, [PCr]-? was speeded slightly but significantly more post-IHT compared to post-INT (-7.3 ± 2.9 vs. -3.7 ± 1.7 s, P<0.01) but changes in muscle metabolite concentrations during exercise were essentially not different between IHT and INT.
Under the conditions of this investigation, IHT does not enhance muscle metabolic responses or incremental exercise performance compared to INT."

-- Translation:

Doesn't effect endurance. Minimally -- enough to be statistically significant, but not enough for a noticeable enhancement -- improves your energy replenishment following intense workouts. And has no effect on muscle activity during normal exercise or incrememental exercise.
2/19/13 1:58 PM
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MattyECB
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CONCLUSION


Not only do these masks fail miserably at mimicking high-altitude training, and do nothing to alter your blood's ability to carry Oxygen -- actually reducing your performance in a number of areas.

They also fail at reproducing any of the non-blood-related benefits to high altitude training, and show essentially no improvements to muscle activity, endurance, recovery, or a person's ability to handle exercise stress.




So don't buy one unless you just want to fuck with yourself to become mentally strong. At which point you might as well put a fucing towel over your face instead of shelling out X amount of dollars to look like motherfucking Bane
2/19/13 6:02 PM
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Topsyjt
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MattyECB -
Topsyjt - 
BlackJesus - 
Topsyjt - 
ranier wolfcastle - 

a couple mma  guys sleep in a hyperbaric chamber

its supposed to give u the same results as epo, so said the cyclist in BIGGER STRONGER FASTER


Yes. Imitates high altitude conditions. Forcing your body to produce more RBC. 

Interestingly thou, in some countries, like Italy, that's classed as blood doping.  Italian IOC has it banned.  They say you should be actually be "at" a said altitude not inside a chamber.  Altidude training has been a Fav of many an combat athlete thoughtout history. High altitude training camps etc. 

Using the Hypoxia tent/hyperbaric chamber, well It's certainly a cheaper option than moving your camp to Mexico, unless you reside in Mexico lol. 

Good documentary also Ranier, BFS. 


What about the mask? Has anyone tried one of these? Do they work?


Blackjesus,

 
Good question. I'm unaware of any scientific evidence supporting altitude like properties or gains other than anecdotal.  Doesn't mean there aren't any, more that I'm just old, blind & stupid.
 
I will have a good look for you. I have contact details for "The Altitude Centre" here in uk. I'll send them info and ask directly. As I will for the training mask, which I'm extremely tempted to buy (purely as a sex tool). 
 
Main difference I can see is training mask works on limited O2, via hypoxia. Much like using say using a swimming pool for underwater swimming and some  kettlebells creating huge Oxygen debt, thus forcing Cardiorespiratory system to become more efficient at using whatever it has. Where as Hyberbaric or CERA / EPO actually reproduce more RBC that ur crying out for during this Hypoxic Underwater session. 
 
I will get back to you on this though. Good question. 

I hate how many people fall for this shit, and that the UG supports this product -- although I love the UG so fuckit, let them get sponsored by whatever.

But here's a scientific article that will perfectly answer your question --> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12162862

(Chose a review that's not too heavy on the science or testing so it's nicer to quote, and if you want any more proof, there are a ton of articles I've read that all support the Oxygen Mask's absolute uselesness so I can link more)

Intermittent hypoxic training: fact and fancy.
(From NCBI, sourced from -- Institute for Exercise and Environmental Medicine, Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas University of Texas)


Formatting done myself for emphasis, focus on the *** paragraphs from this abstract:

Intermittent hypoxic training (IHT) refers to the discontinuous use of normobaric or hypobaric hypoxia, in an attempt to reproduce some of the key features of altitude acclimatization, with the ultimate goal to improve sea-level athletic performance.
In general, IHT can be divided into two different strategies: (1) providing hypoxia at rest with the primary goal being to stimulate altitude acclimatization or

(2) providing hypoxia during exercise, with the primary goal being to enhance the training stimulus. Each approach has many different possible application strategies, with the essential variable among them being the "dose" of hypoxia necessary to achieve the desired effect.

***One approach, called living high-training low, has been shown to improve sea-level endurance performance. This strategy combines altitude acclimatization (2500 m) with low altitude training to ensure high-quality training.

***The opposite strategy, living low-training high, has also been proposed by some investigators. The primacy of the altitude acclimatization effect in IHT is demonstrated by the following facts:

(1) living high-training low clearly improves performance in athletes of all abilities,
(2) the mechanism of this improvement is primarily an increase in erythropoietin, leading to increased red cell mass, V(O2max), and running performance, and

*******************(3) rather than intensifying the training stimulus, training at altitude or under hypoxia leads to the opposite effect - reduced speeds, reduced power output, reduced oxygen flux - and therefore is not likely to provide any advantage for a well-trained athlete.
Blackjesus, the man here has hopefully answered your questions. So, the training mask is goina work out to be any expensive sex tool.... :-(
Good info in ur post. Thank you matt Phone Post

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