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S&C UnderGround >> Can only lift tues weds thurs


2/8/13 8:01 AM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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First of i dont like having back to back days I am used to a m, w, f, style but its all my schedule will allow.

On tuesday i do legs, chest, back, shoulders, all compound movements. Weds is usually core and secondary muscles. Thurs is a repeat of tues with variations in the order and type of lifts I do (instead of back squats i might do front squats for example).

any suggestions on how I could improve this routine?

Thanks. Phone Post
2/8/13 12:25 PM
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Taku
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Edited: 02/08/13 12:27 PM
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I would just train upper body on Tuesday, and lower body on Thursday. take Wednesday off.

Example of upper body workout might be:

 

In this first script, we are executing a basic "press/pull" format with a 6-8 rep range assigned to all of the exercises. Three cycles of six exercises (18 total sets) are performed with 1-2 minutes relief between sets, and 2-3 minutes recovery between cycles.
  • Dumbbell (DB) Bench Press - 6-8 rep range
  • DB Bent -Over Rows - 6-8 rep range
  • DB Incline Press - 6-8 rep range
  • Overhand Pull-ups - 6-8 rep range
  • Standing DB Military Press - 6-8 rep range
  • Underhand Chin-ups - 6-8 rep range
Example of lower body workout might be:
 
The lower body script involves three cycles (12 total sets) of three different multi-joint exercises, and one single-joint exercise performed in the listed sequence. As a general rule, a target of eight solid reps is set for each exercise in all three cycles with 1-3 minutes (depending upon the conditioning and tolerance level of the athlete) of recovery between sets.
  • Front Squat - 8
  • Dead Lift - 8
  • Leg Press - 8
  • Romanian Dead Lifts (RDL's) - 8
Rest 3-4 minutes, and then repeat the sequence two more times.
 
TAKU
 
2/8/13 5:32 PM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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Taku -

I would just train upper body on Tuesday, and lower body on Thursday. take Wednesday off.

Example of upper body workout might be:

 

In this first script, we are executing a basic "press/pull" format with a 6-8 rep range assigned to all of the exercises. Three cycles of six exercises (18 total sets) are performed with 1-2 minutes relief between sets, and 2-3 minutes recovery between cycles.
  • Dumbbell (DB) Bench Press - 6-8 rep range
  • DB Bent -Over Rows - 6-8 rep range
  • DB Incline Press - 6-8 rep range
  • Overhand Pull-ups - 6-8 rep range
  • Standing DB Military Press - 6-8 rep range
  • Underhand Chin-ups - 6-8 rep range
Example of lower body workout might be:
 
The lower body script involves three cycles (12 total sets) of three different multi-joint exercises, and one single-joint exercise performed in the listed sequence. As a general rule, a target of eight solid reps is set for each exercise in all three cycles with 1-3 minutes (depending upon the conditioning and tolerance level of the athlete) of recovery between sets.
  • Front Squat - 8
  • Dead Lift - 8
  • Leg Press - 8
  • Romanian Dead Lifts (RDL's) - 8
Rest 3-4 minutes, and then repeat the sequence two more times.
 
TAKU
 
Thanks taku. Will that style of routine still enable me to.build strength. I am assuming yes due to the 6-8 rep range and being compound movements. Phone Post
2/8/13 9:28 PM
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factchecker
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I would stick to your schedule but change other factors like poundage, rest intervals, and diet.

IMO compound movements should always be prioritized over isolation exercises for their effect as well as sometimes for safety reasons. Sports-specific movemens have their place, of course, though.
2/8/13 11:27 PM
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Taku
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SS, Yes this will make you strong...Provided you work hard, keep good records, recover fully and progress intelligently.

Fatchecker,

There is no such thing as sports specific exercises done with weights (unless your sport is powerlifitng or O-lifting).

TAKU

2/9/13 2:42 AM
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Leigh
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Agree with Taku. Yes you'll be able to build strength on that routine. Phone Post
2/9/13 3:14 AM
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factchecker
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Taku,

Re:Sports-specific exercises

Maybe our interepretations of the term differ, no?

I did Judo before, and we did weight exercises specific to Judo, like pull-ups gripping the gi sleeves, cable-pulling diagonally upward just like the initial motion of throw entry, and legswinging with heavy ankle weights imitating legsweeps.

The pullup gripping the gi is a definitely compound exercise. Cablepulling(you turn your neck while you pull the cable diagonally upward)involves a number of muscles, but it is closer to an isolation exercise. So is the ankleweght exercise we did.

In my definition they are all exercises specific to Judo, which is a sport as well as a martial art).

Mitsui Sumitomo Marine Insurance Judo Team, which has the best women's Judo team, has a bunch of machines at their gym
that were designed only for Judoka.

I don't know the OP is lifting as supplementary exercises or lifting purely for strength gain. In any case, I thought he should primarily do compound exercises(like you recommended), but also thought that he might want to do some isolation exercises geared to his speciality, which should be encouraged of course.
2/9/13 3:17 AM
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factchecker
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Taku,

Forgot to say that I once followed your advice to a great effect.

Thanks
2/9/13 5:35 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I'd go with Taku's idea, with a slight tweak.

On Tuesday, I'd shed the ever loving shit outta quad dominant and hip dominant exercises. Wednesday would be abdominal work, light intensity, and Thursday would be shredding the shit outta my upper body.

To keep things balanced, or an attempt at balance, I would alternate weeks between Heavy and Repetition. So, it would look like this:

Week 1 Tuesday Heavy quad dominant (squats, etc), repetition hip dominant (RDL's, back extensions, etc)

Wednesday abs and rotational work

Thursday Heavy Chest, repetition back

Week 2 Tuesday Heavy Hip dominant (deadlifts would be my choice), repetition quad dominant (lunges, step ups)

Wednesday same as week 1

Thursday Heavy Back (supported rows would be my recc.) and repetition back

If you feel the irrepressible need to do any "beach muscle" work, do it on the days OPPOSITE the main movers that they affect. So, do your bicep curls on Tuesday, your calf raises on Thursday.
2/9/13 5:37 AM
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Leigh
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I think that sport specific stuff is garbage (something I got from Taku). If you want to get stronger at throwing, increase general strength and/or practise throwing. Replicating something in the weight room will be too far removed from either Phone Post
2/9/13 5:37 AM
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Leigh
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I think that sport specific stuff is garbage (something I got from Taku). If you want to get stronger at throwing, increase general strength and/or practise throwing. Replicating something in the weight room will be too far removed from either Phone Post
2/9/13 5:41 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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factchecker,

TAKU's opinion (and mine as well) is that no so-called "sport specific" weight room exercise carries over as well as the designers claim into the sporting arena because, quite simply, the weight room CANNOT replicate all of the stresses and forces on the body that the competitive arena places upon it.

As a judo nidan, I agree with TAKU. Let's take a look at the pullups from a gi sleeve. Well, while it obviously does strengthen the back and the hands, when in judo is a pull ever done in the same plane of motion as a pullup, or from a parallel grip as the players do when training these movements?

Taking a look at the cable exercises. Attaching a weight to the ankle will either A) slow down the foot to a sufficient amount as to actually negatively affect the player by making them "work slow", or B) be so light as to have little positive effect upon the muscles used in a movement such as de ashi harai or ko uchi gari.

The same can be said for any of the cable movements. Grips, torques, centers of gravity, etc cannot be sufficiently replicated inside the weight room as to have a true carry-over effect into the competitive arena.

There have been plenty of studies that have actually shown this. The team and players would be served just as well by strengthening the muscles needed to perform the movements of judo, and then keeping the training of movements to the tatami.
2/9/13 9:52 AM
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factchecker
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Edited: 02/09/13 10:12 AM
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CS,

I see what you are saying, but in Judo that is not the way many top dogs train or have trained. What I'm saying is that there are free-weight or machine exercises out there other than so-called conventioal movements and that are closer to actual movements in the arena.

You do A) conventional movements(centered around compound exercises)in the gym, B) "so-called" Judo-specific exercises in the gym or anywhere else, and C) engage in actual Judo on the tatami.

I'm saying, I believe rather, that B) does have its valuable place. It is a small part, but you sound like we should discard B), no?

You are a knowlegeable guy, so I would like to make sure where you stand on this topic.

(Pull-ups with the gi with the parallel grip did help me to strengthen my pin, kamishiho gatame.) I once attended a seminar where a newaza expert talked about a supplementary exercise he did to make his juji gatame more secure.)
2/9/13 9:55 AM
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factchecker
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Edited: 02/09/13 10:33 AM
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Most champion armwrestlers are strong proponents of these "sports-specific" exercises.

They do A) conventional movements(like curls and pulls)in the gym, B) armwrestling-specific exercises(these vary depending on competitors)in the gym, and C) actual armwrestling training.

Not trying to hyjack the thread.

Sorry, OP.
2/9/13 1:51 PM
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Taku
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Hey FC,

Thanks for the kind words.

I think that the arguement that a certain group of athletes, trains a certain way, and they have been successful at their chosen activity...Is not a great reason and or argument for doing said activity. Many athletes succeed inspite of how they train not because of it.

Great example:

Michael Phelps is a pretty good swimmer. His coach however is an idiot. He makes Phelps to training where he swims against resistance and also "over-speed" training where he actually is pulled through the water at a pace faster than he can actually swim on his own. Both of these methods have been proven to be ineffective at best, and detrimental at worst. However Phelps is arguably the best swimmer ever (to date).

Unfortunately many coaches and athletes will proabably attempt to mimic these training methods in hopes of replicating the success of Phelps. Something which can noy be replicated unless he is cloned.

TAKU

2/9/13 2:45 PM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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Taku -

SS, Yes this will make you strong...Provided you work hard, keep good records, recover fully and progress intelligently.

Fatchecker,

There is no such thing as sports specific exercises done with weights (unless your sport is powerlifitng or O-lifting).

TAKU

Awesome i will start next week and document my lifts. Again thanks for the info! Phone Post
2/9/13 2:50 PM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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Reason i even started lifting was to increase strength because i felt weak at 135. Now that i have been lifting i feel a noticeable difference especially when i am grappling. More so in the wrestling department. I am gonna follow this routine but i will do something on weds because i use the college's gym because my class is a personal fitness class. Easiest class ever so i will prob jump rope and stretch on weds. Phone Post
2/9/13 6:36 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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FC,

Honestly, there has been so much documented evidence that your category B is ineffective or in fact detrimental that I actually am surprised that people still try it. It's pure "bro science" almost anymore.

For example, you use the comment "the way many top dogs train or have trained." No offense to you, I've trained in some of the higher level university dojos too, and to be honest, I wasn't all that impressed by the methodology of the training methods I observed.

The fact is, using some player who is a beast at Waseda or on the ALSOK corporate team as evidence that such training methods work is tenuous at best. Why? Because most of the players on these teams are the .1%. They are the players who would be good enough regardless of the S&C protocols you used. Let's face it, Kaori Matsumoto would be a world class judo player if her S&C were her current method, TAKU's protocols, my protocols, or if she did Billy Blank's Tae Bo combined with pushing a car around a track. And let's not get into the whole problem of "well, that's the way the coach was trained, so it must be good," since Sonoda had to quit over his training methods on the girls.

The proof of a training protocol lies in two things. One it must be sufficiently different so as to be measurable. For example, if one team does flat bench for their main chest exercise while the other does incline bench, it's not enough of a difference so as to really overcome the variability in data that could be gathered by observing in game abilities.

Second, it must be of a sufficient number of athletes in all ranges so as to take into account the "freak factor." As TAKU points out, following the training protocol of Michael Phelps or using it as the optimal training protocol is weak at best, since Phelps is truly the genetic outlier. Name the sport, and you can find the genetic outlier that it is useless to use as the sole proponent of a training protocol.

Finally, results must be observed from a sufficient length of time. For example, if a university football team suddenly changes S&C protocols, using 1 game or even 1 season to evaluate the protocol in comparison to the old protocol is problematic. A team could be having a down year talent wise. There could have been injuries that were unavoidable. The other teams could have been having some good luck this year. The lights may have gone out in the Superdome. Whatever.

This is where the weakness of Japanese dojos and their S&C protocol lies. They don't fulfill #1, as there is almost a pathological need in sports in Japan for EVERYONE to do things the exact same way. The correct way. You know, the Japanese way? This is why at the high school baseball tourney, 95% of teams are wearing white uniforms with either black, navy blue, or purple lettering. This is why every team plays with the exact same strategy (get on first, sacrafice bunt to advance runner, try to bat the runner in), and games are about as interesting as watching paint dry.

And judo is the same way. I am still perplexed just how it is that in an art that has over 100 recognized techniques, why it is that teams and coaches and players around Japan seem to (competition wise) only know about 7? Seio nage, Uchi mata, Harai goshi, O soto gari, O uchi gari, tomoe nage, and de ashi harai? It's like, teaching some "radically" different technique like Tani otoshi or Ko soto gake is inconcievable (they keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means).

So, until I see some evidence beyond bro-science, I'll keep with my assertion that B is junk, until some proof beyond testimonials and bro-science.
2/9/13 7:46 PM
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Taku
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C.S. is on FIRE!!!!

TAKU <---sits back and enjoys C.S. hard work.

 

2/10/13 5:24 AM
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factchecker
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CS,

I just wanted to know that I was understood correctly.
I respect guys who stand their own ground.

Looking foward to reading you guys' future posts.
2/10/13 10:57 AM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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My thread got hijacked again! Lol Phone Post

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