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UnderGround Forums >> DW: "I just have no respect for Frank Shamrock"


2/9/13 1:34 AM
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yabadaba
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Edited: 02/09/13 1:39 AM
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Mr.Negative - 

he was great back then, but he took the fight on 2 weeks notice. he was in absolutely no condition to be fighting frank and took the fight for the fuck of it. i've fucking talked to both of them about it on a couple different occasions. frank couldn't believe he took it after the brazilian fighter backed out (can't remember who it was) but was super amped to get a chance to avenge his loss. and avenge it he did...lol

I was referring to Lober's fights with Zinoviev and Jackson.

You say Lober was great back then but he went 0-1-1 against fighters Shamrock went 2-0 against and (in your opinion) these weren't even Shamrock's best wins. It sounds like you have a very high opinion of Shamrock.

2/9/13 1:41 AM
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MrColdCock
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No kidding bias against Frank.

"had he beat sak, royce, rua, vanderlei, chuck, or any of the other killers from 2000-on than MAYBE he can be considered a high-caliber fighter."

So he has to FINISH Tito, Lober, Enson, Jackson, Zinoviev, Horn as then go on to beat one of those guys... Then MAYBE he would have been high caliber? For some reason he would have to wait until 2005 to fight Shogun (that would somehow solidify his status in 1998). Or beat a Wand who was 0-1 in the UFC while Shamrock was the champ. Or beat Chuck who was getting choked out by Horn. What he did in the late 90's doesn't count because years later there would be other food fighters? GTFO with that shit.

While Frank was UFC champ he was at worst the second best non HW on the planet. That's is high caliber. Accept it. Phone Post
2/9/13 1:42 AM
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Mr.Negative
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i honestly think his first fight that he won against bas and his fight against enson are his two biggest fights/wins with the tito fight a close 3rd. he was probably outweighed 30-35lbs by enson and Bas already had 6 or 7 wins in pancrase when frank fought him for his first fucking fight...lol 

thats why i definitely think he's MMA HOF for sure. but UFC? not so much.

he could have done so much more, hell, he would have been the face of the UFC if he would have played ball

2/9/13 1:47 AM
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Rickson's Aura
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Frank is a legend and made an impact in the UFC, pancrase, and Strikeforce. His first two fights in the UFC were title fights. One was his debut and the other was a title unification bout. He finished both fights and the time it took for both fights was under 90 seconds. His next fight was a ground battle with him threatening Jeremy Horn with submissions but losing the position battle. He then pulls out the submission victory by kneebar in overtime. Then he toys with the last guy that beat him John Lober in a grudge match that was his 4th title fight. Then in what was probably the biggest match in the UFC till that point, Frank Shamrock made the bigger stronger challenger Tito Ortiz tap out to strikes in a fight that like Maurice Smith/Coleman taught people a lesson in the importance of conditioning. The fight itself had the hype, storyline, and lived up to it all.

That 5 fight run as a champion had dominant finishes, a slam KO, submission victory in OT, and one of the most memorable fights in UFC history. He was also the guy who carried the UFC during the dark ages. Dana was probably boxercizing at that time.

As for people saying he never fought anyone outside the ufc that was that good ...To get a chance to fight in the UFC he had to beat Enson Inoue. In his next fight Enson submitted Randy Couture who left the UFC as the HW champ. Keep in mind Frank fought guys bigger than him like Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Enson Inoue, Tito Ortiz, and Jeremy Horn and came out on top against them all.
2/9/13 1:50 AM
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Mr.Negative
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MrColdCock -  No kidding bias against Frank.

"had he beat sak, royce, rua, vanderlei, chuck, or any of the other killers from 2000-on than MAYBE he can be considered a high-caliber fighter."

So he has to FINISH Tito, Lober, Enson, Jackson, Zinoviev, Horn as then go on to beat one of those guys... Then MAYBE he would have been high caliber? For some reason he would have to wait until 2005 to fight Shogun (that would somehow solidify his status in 1998). Or beat a Wand who was 0-1 in the UFC while Shamrock was the champ. Or beat Chuck who was getting choked out by Horn. What he did in the late 90's doesn't count because years later there would be other food fighters? GTFO with that shit.

While Frank was UFC champ he was at worst the second best non HW on the planet. That's is high caliber. Accept it. Phone Post

WTF are you talking about? 

he beat tito september of 1999. 

at that time sak was 7-1 (only loss to kimo who weighed 60lbs more), vanderlei was 10-2, royce was 12-0.

all fighters that he ducked after he fought tito. otherwise he wouldn't have taken only 3 fights in almost 7 years against 3 fighters with a fucking combined record of 8-5-1 with one of those fighters having a fucking 0-0 record.

was he "high caliber?" sure, for the 21 months he fought in the UFC, he was a "high caliber" fighter. before and after? maybe, maybe not.

2/9/13 1:51 AM
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RileyPust
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Frank vs Tito is one of my favourite fights ever. Mad props to cm81 for knowing what the fuck is up.
2/9/13 1:52 AM
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MrColdCock
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Agreed he could have done more. Nobody wanted to see that guy fight more then me. His accomplishments and standing history can't be denied though.

" the brightest stars shine for the shortest time" .... Bitch. Phone Post
2/9/13 1:53 AM
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Mr.Negative
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Rickson's Aura - Frank is a legend and made an impact in the UFC, pancrase, and Strikeforce. His first two fights in the UFC were title fights. One was his debut and the other was a title unification bout. He finished both fights and the time it took for both fights was under 90 seconds. His next fight was a ground battle with him threatening Jeremy Horn with submissions but losing the position battle. He then pulls out the submission victory by kneebar in overtime. Then he toys with the last guy that beat him John Lober in a grudge match that was his 4th title fight. Then in what was probably the biggest match in the UFC till that point, Frank Shamrock made the bigger stronger challenger Tito Ortiz tap out to strikes in a fight that like Maurice Smith/Coleman taught people a lesson in the importance of conditioning. The fight itself had the hype, storyline, and lived up to it all.

That 5 fight run as a champion had dominant finishes, a slam KO, submission victory in OT, and one of the most memorable fights in UFC history. He was also the guy who carried the UFC during the dark ages. Dana was probably boxercizing at that time.

As for people saying he never fought anyone outside the ufc that was that good ...To get a chance to fight in the UFC he had to beat Enson Inoue. In his next fight Enson submitted Randy Couture who left the UFC as the HW champ. Keep in mind Frank fought guys bigger than him like Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Enson Inoue, Tito Ortiz, and Jeremy Horn and came out on top against them all.

actually, dana was already repping tito and chuck at that time, so, if you're going slam dana at least get your facts straight.

and yeah, i'd say his win over enson and Bas are as big if not bigger than all but the tito fight in the UFC. 

2/9/13 2:06 AM
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RileyPust
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Frank Shamrock is a legend, he absolutely deserves to be in the UFC HOF. Anyone who disagrees couldn't have been an MMA fan at the time. There's no way you could witness Franks run, and Franks badass retirement, and not think he deserves to be in the UFC HOF.
2/9/13 3:07 AM
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CindyO
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big_roy_fan - why does frank deserve to be in the UFC hall of fame?

he had 5 fights in the UFC then he punked out.. look at the track record of the other fights in the HOF.

Royce, Severen, Couture, Liddell, Ortiz, Hughes have all done much more for the UFC then Frank Shamrock, adding him into the UFC HOF would kind of devalue the title of "UFC HOF'er"

He definitely belongs in the MMA Hall of Fame and since Kirik owns that (IIRC) I think Frank will absolutely be a candidate.

 

Cindy

2/9/13 3:13 AM
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cm81
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After reading all the posts, I think it is clear that most of us who followed the sport back then are aware of how much Frank actually achieved.

It's extremely sad, that fans today rubbish Kevin Jackson and Zinoviev as low level competition.

Kevin Jackson was a GOLD medallist wrestler. Ok? He destroyed everyone he fought in MMA and was pegged to be champ in the UFC for a long time. And he would have... But Frank, a HUGE underdog, finished him with an armbar in 15 secs or so.

Same for Zinoviev. He made Mario Sperry quit, at a time when Carlson Gracie's guys were steamrolling everyone. Frank, in theory, was a weaker fighter and supposed to lose, but shocked everyone by slam KO'ing him like it was nothing.

Of course, neither Jackson nor Zinoviev became UFC legends. But that was because Frank ended their careers. You have to understand they both decimated everyone else they faced... At a time when competition was arguably tougher outside of the UFC. Phone Post
2/9/13 3:44 AM
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George Hill
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Mr. Negative, you're full of it because you insinuated Frank ducked Royce Gracie.

You know full well Frank would have mopped the floor with Royce Gracie by that point, and that he kept trying to get a match with Sakuraba but it was Pride that didn't want to put Sakuraba in with him.

And saying what injury he had before Diaz is ignorant. It was well known he went into that fight with broken ribs. There was an article about it before the fight ever took place.

He fought Baroni 12 days after completely tearing his ACL and still won.

Who is the only man in UFC history to win 2 different championship matches in less than a minute?

Who has the most career submissions in UFC title matches?

How many guys in history went 5-0 for their career in UFC title matches who are not in the Hall of Fame except Anderson Silva, who is most definitely getting in?
2/9/13 4:04 AM
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yabadaba
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Edited: 02/09/13 4:05 AM
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big_roy_fan - 
CindyO - He definitely belongs in the MMA Hall of Fame and since Kirik owns that (IIRC) I think Frank will absolutely be a candidate.

 

Cindy

i agree he could belong in an MMA hall of fame, but he doesn't belong in the UFC HOF.

That makes no sense IMO. Why should he be in an MMA HOF of fame but not a UFC HOF when most of his big wins were in the UFC? 

Is there anybody on this thread who can truthfully answer yes to all of the following questions who does not think Frank belongs in the UFC HOF?

a) I am not associated with the UFC

b) I was not a training partner of one of Frank's opponents 

c) I actually watched Zinoviev vs Lober, Jackson vs Shamrock, etc. at the time they happened

2/9/13 4:19 AM
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DieTrying
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For those of you who think Frank got lucky on the Igor slam, all I can say is Frank drilled that slam for few days straight at AKA right before the fight...

Frank, like him or hate him, helped put MMA where it is today. The people and students he worked with and no doubt influence back then like crazy Bob, BJ Penn, Javier Mendez, and others went on to help grow MMA. If you watch his fights, especially his UFC fights, you will see someone that is always flowing and working which is the epitome of modern MMA: insane cardio, strong foundation, well rounded game.
2/9/13 5:36 AM
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Kenso
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big_roy_fan - 
CindyO - 
big_roy_fan - why does frank deserve to be in the UFC hall of fame?

he had 5 fights in the UFC then he punked out.. look at the track record of the other fights in the HOF.

Royce, Severen, Couture, Liddell, Ortiz, Hughes have all done much more for the UFC then Frank Shamrock, adding him into the UFC HOF would kind of devalue the title of "UFC HOF'er"

He definitely belongs in the MMA Hall of Fame and since Kirik owns that (IIRC) I think Frank will absolutely be a candidate.

 

Cindy


i agree he could belong in an MMA hall of fame, but he doesn't belong in the UFC HOF.

Is Cindy saying he belongs in the UFC HOF?
2/9/13 9:40 AM
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Andy Rigg
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cm81 - 
Ip Man 81 -
big_roy_fan - why does frank deserve to be in the UFC hall of fame?

he had 5 fights in the UFC then he punked out.. look at the track record of the other fights in the HOF.

Royce, Severen, Couture, Liddell, Ortiz, Hughes have all done much more for the UFC then Frank Shamrock, adding him into the UFC HOF would kind of devalue the title of "UFC HOF'er"
Frank Shamrock has no business in the UFC hof. Not that he wasn't a decent fighter, but he just wasn't that high a caliber fighter. Phone Post
Wow.

Let me tell you son, as a 01'er... Back in the day Kevin Jackson and Igor Zinoviev were the Jon Jones and Anderson Silvas and were running over everyone.

Then Frank came along and ended their fighting careers.

So don't tell me about not facing high level caliber fighters. He faced the best of his time and completely destroyed them.

Don't you ever dare to rewrite history. Phone Post

vtfu frank shamrock absolutely deserves to be in. no-one seems to be mentioning charles lewis' place in it either.
2/9/13 9:41 AM
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rockwell
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George Hill - Mr. Negative, you're full of it because you insinuated Frank ducked Royce Gracie.

You know full well Frank would have mopped the floor with Royce Gracie by that point, and that he kept trying to get a match with Sakuraba but it was Pride that didn't want to put Sakuraba in with him.

And saying what injury he had before Diaz is ignorant. It was well known he went into that fight with broken ribs. There was an article about it before the fight ever took place.

He fought Baroni 12 days after completely tearing his ACL and still won.

Who is the only man in UFC history to win 2 different championship matches in less than a minute?

Who has the most career submissions in UFC title matches?

How many guys in history went 5-0 for their career in UFC title matches who are not in the Hall of Fame except Anderson Silva, who is most definitely getting in?
George Hill knows what's up! Phone Post
2/9/13 9:51 AM
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In Limbo
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Ip Man 81 - 
big_roy_fan - why does frank deserve to be in the UFC hall of fame?

he had 5 fights in the UFC then he punked out.. look at the track record of the other fights in the HOF.

Royce, Severen, Couture, Liddell, Ortiz, Hughes have all done much more for the UFC then Frank Shamrock, adding him into the UFC HOF would kind of devalue the title of "UFC HOF'er"
Frank Shamrock has no business in the UFC hof. Not that he wasn't a decent fighter, but he just wasn't that high a caliber fighter. Phone Post

wow you both are stupid idiots

you only know of shammy via wikipedia

typical posts from Fox noobs with '12 and '13 join dates

2/9/13 10:14 AM
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Mismatch
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The only reason Frank isn't in the UFC HoF is because of his actions outside of the cage and his troubles with Dana/Zuffa, not because of what he did inside of the cage.

2/9/13 10:25 AM
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ChaosOverkill
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rockwell - 
George Hill - Mr. Negative, you're full of it because you insinuated Frank ducked Royce Gracie.

You know full well Frank would have mopped the floor with Royce Gracie by that point, and that he kept trying to get a match with Sakuraba but it was Pride that didn't want to put Sakuraba in with him.

And saying what injury he had before Diaz is ignorant. It was well known he went into that fight with broken ribs. There was an article about it before the fight ever took place.

He fought Baroni 12 days after completely tearing his ACL and still won.

Who is the only man in UFC history to win 2 different championship matches in less than a minute?

Who has the most career submissions in UFC title matches?

How many guys in history went 5-0 for their career in UFC title matches who are not in the Hall of Fame except Anderson Silva, who is most definitely getting in?
George Hill knows what's up! Phone Post

this

2/9/13 10:35 AM
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cleetdog101
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Dana hates and has "no respect" for anyone & everyone who DOESNT wave the UFC flag. Its just standard business spin-doctoring: we're the best & everyone else sucks. I take Dana about as seriously as I do my ex wife - i.e. I consider the source.
2/9/13 10:39 AM
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Biggy
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the fact that Frank vs Tito wasn't put into the best fights of all time, let alone top ten, says a lot about the characters running the organization. Phone Post
2/9/13 10:50 AM
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RollHighAllDay
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The demise of the UFC is going to be their giant ego. Phone Post
2/9/13 10:59 AM
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Jaybrone
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The only reason Frank is not in the HOF is because of Dana butt hurt. Look at it like this if Randy wasn't in the HOF already and had done this new Bellator deal Dana would never put him in.

2/9/13 11:11 AM
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gabemadrid
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Jaybrone -

The only reason Frank is not in the HOF is because of Dana butt hurt. Look at it like this if Randy wasn't in the HOF already and had done this new Bellator deal Dana would never put him in.

- Phone Post

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