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2/13/13 12:53 PM
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Wicked smahtMF
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how can it? its in fact the only discipline incapable of finishing a fight
2/13/13 12:54 PM
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Wicked smahtMF
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UGSlapshot - 
gusto - has he ever seen his own fights?
Huh? Phone Post

yeah, huh?
2/13/13 12:58 PM
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GriffinQ
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Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post
2/13/13 1:03 PM
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GriffinQ
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ausgepicht -
gamer - 
ausgepicht - 
gamer - Ausgepicht,

Regarding Rampage vs Arona:

The slam didnt cause the knockout

It was the head butt which caused the finish

Bas Rutten even called it out!

Besides, those are rare instances in where a slam directly caused the finish

By the way, who is to say that a slam/takedown means its from wrestling

Judo incorporates takedowns, so do many other martial arts too

Wrestling is mostly for position

You are right in what you say about wrestling in your last paragraph. It contributes to etc

But regarding direcrt finishes, what directly finishes a fight 98% of the time is striking, submissions, or ground and pound striking

Your trolling is completely transparent and unoriginal. And your syntax sucks. VTFD.


work ethic, training, competition experience, and more from wrestling wins these fights.Wow you are voting me down for disagreeing with you!

I hardly ever vote people down, but im going to vote you down for being a pussy

By the way, I would agree with what you said here:

"work ethic, training, competition experience, and more from wrestling wins these fights."


But as for wrestling directly being able to FINISH fights?

Nope! Striking and submissions are what FINISHES FIGHTS 98% of the time

 

gamer - Jones is right regardless Wrestling by itself can not finish fights 
It can only get you into position 

Trolling, trolling, trolling gently down the stream.

 

That's called getting sonned, Thiaguy. Now kindly stop making a fool of yourself, you've already met your quota for the day Phone Post
2/13/13 1:17 PM
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OneGloveJimmerson
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There is no specific art to train ground and pound. You do not go to special ground and pound dojos or "yo bro i train in ground punching". There is not much special technique when throwing elbows or hammer fists into your opponent's skull or torso. You are simply using a blunt weapon in the form of your fist, elbow, or even shoulder to cause direct damage to your opponent. Wrestling enables you to put yourself into a dominant position where you can gain superior leverage that provides more damaging strikes. Wrestling also aids you in controlling your opponent's ability to avoid strikes or escape the ground. You'll never be able to place yourself in that controlling dominant position to deliver fight ending strikes on the ground without using good wrestling technique. Hundreds of fights have been finished due to wrestling.
2/13/13 1:34 PM
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Wicked smahtMF
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GriffinQ -  Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post

well first everyone needs to agree on the definition of wrestling and i think most do. its the fucking morons that know exactly what people mean when they say wrestling yet want to reference "submission holds" being part of wrestling gtfoh dude. u know exactly what he means by wrestling. he means non-submission ground fighting.... position, control, transitions, take-downs. come on dude
2/13/13 1:39 PM
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UGSlapshot
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GriffinQ - Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post
jujitsu is older than judo, not that it matters much. Phone Post
2/13/13 1:39 PM
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GriffinQ
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Wicked smahtMF -
GriffinQ -  Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post

well first everyone needs to agree on the definition of wrestling and i think most do. its the fucking morons that know exactly what people mean when they say wrestling yet want to reference "submission holds" being part of wrestling gtfoh dude. u know exactly what he means by wrestling. he means non-submission ground fighting.... position, control, transitions, take-downs. come on dude
When Jones is talking about it, sure. Jones has wrestled and is aware that it has subs

But for idiots such as yourself and Thiaguy, I don't think you're aware of the submission holds in wrestling. Wrestling DOES finish fights, and saying otherwise is ignorant, so maybe educate yourself before you speak on the subject
When Hughes finished Almeida, it was not a BJJ move or judo move.. It was a front headlock from wrestling. That is a submission he learned as a WRESTLER. Phone Post
2/13/13 1:40 PM
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GriffinQ
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UGSlapshot -
GriffinQ - Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post
jujitsu is older than judo, not that it matters much. Phone Post
JJJ is... BJJ is not. Phone Post
2/13/13 2:08 PM
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UGSlapshot
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Well when what Jon Jones says is taken out of context it gets silly.

Slams are low percentage if they were high percentage everybody would be using slams to finish but they don't because they're not.

On the other hand I think GSP has proven wrestling can win fights but that's not what Jones was talking about.

Ending a fight with a neck crank would be ending a fight with a submission that's also not what Jones was alluding to.

From what i gather all he meant was that positional grappling only gets you so far and that you need more skills than just that to stop a opponent I'm mma.

I really don't see what the problem is with that statement other than ... well duh.. Phone Post
2/13/13 2:18 PM
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Nexuscrawlers
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gamer - BJJ players who use wrestling well for MMA are dominant

Where as, a wrestler who only uses wrestling in MMA gets beat all the time
Yup, Ben Askren is always losing because he only uses wrestling. Phone Post
2/13/13 2:33 PM
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UGSlapshot
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Nexuscrawlers -
gamer - BJJ players who use wrestling well for MMA are dominant

Where as, a wrestler who only uses wrestling in MMA gets beat all the time
Yup, Ben Askren is always losing because he only uses wrestling. Phone Post
He doesn't only use wrestling, he has a wrestling base but show me a stoppage of his via wrestling in the context in which we're talking about.

Generally speaking wrestling is not used to finish fighters, its used to break fighters down so that you can finish them. Phone Post
2/13/13 2:46 PM
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Wicked smahtMF
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gamer - 
GriffinQ - 
Wicked smahtMF -
GriffinQ -  Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post

well first everyone needs to agree on the definition of wrestling and i think most do. its the fucking morons that know exactly what people mean when they say wrestling yet want to reference "submission holds" being part of wrestling gtfoh dude. u know exactly what he means by wrestling. he means non-submission ground fighting.... position, control, transitions, take-downs. come on dude
When Jones is talking about it, sure. Jones has wrestled and is aware that it has subs

But for idiots such as yourself and Thiaguy, I don't think you're aware of the submission holds in wrestling. Wrestling DOES finish fights, and saying otherwise is ignorant, so maybe educate yourself before you speak on the subject
When Hughes finished Almeida, it was not a BJJ move or judo move.. It was a front headlock from wrestling. That is a submission he learned as a WRESTLER. Phone Post

Im sorry but people like you and OneGloveJimmerson are truly the idiots here....over reacting and over exaggerating idiots to be exact

The fact of the matter is submission holds are illegal in wrestling competition

So why should they matter to wrestlers who compete in wrestling?

Some wrestlers may still train some basic submission holds here and there,

But many more do not. They dont have to. They are illegal in competition.

Submissions have never been the main focus of wrestling or the main focus during training/practice for wrestling etc

Have you ever wrestled? Its all about positions and mantaining position etc

Sure, a wrestler can take some one down, but from there he NEEDS BJJ to FINISH THE FIGHT, and that is the point

And to OneGloveJimmerson,

You learn ground and pound striking in MMA. Its an MMA technique

And to say that ground and pound striking takes no skill, that is asinine, you might as well say that it takes no skill to tackle somebody for a "takedown," but except me saying that would be closer to the truth, then you saying ground and pound takes no skill lol

Yes, wrestlers who have competed in wrestling have already gained great experience for MMA (wrestling is a part of MMA)

And wrestling certainly wins fights (albiet in boring fashion)

But wrestling DOES NOT FINISH FIGHTS (and only can on the rare occasion of a slam KO)

BJJ AND STRIKING IS WHAT FINISHES the fight a vast majority of the time

My question is why are there so many butt hurt wrestling fans getting up in arms about this?

I know its hurts you guys to give BJJ any credit, but without BJJ your wrestling is irrelavant. Thats the truth. Deal with it

again, Griffin, dont be a jackass. u know very well what EVERYONE who knows mma means when they say "wrestling" they mean all aspects of ground fighting EXCEPT submissions. very simple stuff bud... wrestling. like i said before. to have discussions we actually have to agree on the definitions and when Jones says wrestling doesnt finish/ win fights, referring to ACTUAL FUCKING WRESTLING, and your counterproductive/ deliberately evasive ass cites the fact that "wrestling has submissions", which is untrue/ misleading/ nit-picky, you are being a complete fuck-tard. yes i know "Sub wrestling/ catch/ etc. has subs but AGAIN, thats not what he and everyone else is referring to when they say "wrestling"... and you know that. just stop with the childish/ non-relevant BS
2/13/13 3:12 PM
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GriffinQ
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Wicked smahtMF - 
gamer - 
GriffinQ - 
Wicked smahtMF -
GriffinQ -  Lol at the idiots who don't know that wrestling has submission holds
Just because they can't be applied to finish a match in competition and are illegal depending on how they're applied, doesn't mean they don't exist.
BJJ did not invent chokes, necks cranks, torquing of limbs, etc. . It just built an art around those specific things. Many submissions existed in wrestling in Judo way before BJJ was even an idea Phone Post

well first everyone needs to agree on the definition of wrestling and i think most do. its the fucking morons that know exactly what people mean when they say wrestling yet want to reference "submission holds" being part of wrestling gtfoh dude. u know exactly what he means by wrestling. he means non-submission ground fighting.... position, control, transitions, take-downs. come on dude
When Jones is talking about it, sure. Jones has wrestled and is aware that it has subs

But for idiots such as yourself and Thiaguy, I don't think you're aware of the submission holds in wrestling. Wrestling DOES finish fights, and saying otherwise is ignorant, so maybe educate yourself before you speak on the subject
When Hughes finished Almeida, it was not a BJJ move or judo move.. It was a front headlock from wrestling. That is a submission he learned as a WRESTLER. Phone Post

Im sorry but people like you and OneGloveJimmerson are truly the idiots here....over reacting and over exaggerating idiots to be exact

The fact of the matter is submission holds are illegal in wrestling competition

So why should they matter to wrestlers who compete in wrestling?

Some wrestlers may still train some basic submission holds here and there,

But many more do not. They dont have to. They are illegal in competition.

Submissions have never been the main focus of wrestling or the main focus during training/practice for wrestling etc

Have you ever wrestled? Its all about positions and mantaining position etc

Sure, a wrestler can take some one down, but from there he NEEDS BJJ to FINISH THE FIGHT, and that is the point

And to OneGloveJimmerson,

You learn ground and pound striking in MMA. Its an MMA technique

And to say that ground and pound striking takes no skill, that is asinine, you might as well say that it takes no skill to tackle somebody for a "takedown," but except me saying that would be closer to the truth, then you saying ground and pound takes no skill lol

Yes, wrestlers who have competed in wrestling have already gained great experience for MMA (wrestling is a part of MMA)

And wrestling certainly wins fights (albiet in boring fashion)

But wrestling DOES NOT FINISH FIGHTS (and only can on the rare occasion of a slam KO)

BJJ AND STRIKING IS WHAT FINISHES the fight a vast majority of the time

My question is why are there so many butt hurt wrestling fans getting up in arms about this?

I know its hurts you guys to give BJJ any credit, but without BJJ your wrestling is irrelavant. Thats the truth. Deal with it

again, Griffin, dont be a jackass. u know very well what EVERYONE who knows mma means when they say "wrestling" they mean all aspects of ground fighting EXCEPT submissions. very simple stuff bud... wrestling. like i said before. to have discussions we actually have to agree on the definitions and when Jones says wrestling doesnt finish/ win fights, referring to ACTUAL FUCKING WRESTLING, and your counterproductive/ deliberately evasive ass cites the fact that "wrestling has submissions", which is untrue/ misleading/ nit-picky, you are being a complete fuck-tard. yes i know "Sub wrestling/ catch/ etc. has subs but AGAIN, thats not what he and everyone else is referring to when they say "wrestling"... and you know that. just stop with the childish/ non-relevant BS

SUBMISSIONS ARE PART OF WRESTLING. Just because something is a commonly held belief or oft-repeated statement doesn't make it factually correct. People frequently reference wrestling and are speaking only of takedowns. That's incorrect. People speak of the clinch game as if it's not a part of wrestling. Incorrect as well. People speak of ground control moves and submissions as if they can only be learned in BJJ or sub-oriented styles like Catch. Again, incorrect.

Anyone who has ever spent time in a wrestling room has learned submissions. Not being allowed to use something in competition doesn't mean that it's not a part of that sport, and doesn't mean that they can't apply it somewhere else. Things that can be used in competition within a sport are not the only aspect of a sport. Reaping the leg and various neck cranks aren't allowed in BJJ competitions...does that mean that they're not part of BJJ?

Hughes said that he learned his finish of Almeida from wrestling. So is Matt Hughes incorrect when he refers to a submission as a wrestling move? Not something he learned for sub-wrestling or catch-wrestling, but something he learned from American Folkstyle wrestling, the sport he grew up in.

How is this childish/non-relevant BS? You're being willfully ignorant about the parts of a sport in order to make your argument, something tells me you and Thiaguy have never spent time in a wrestling room.

It's not untrue, it's not misleading, and it's not nit-picky to express that wrestling has submissions and finishes fights. It IS, however, ignorant to say that it does not. So take your troll account that you've had for all of 3 weeks, and fuck right off. Take Thiaguy with you, I'm tired of his "Gamer" account and I'm just oh so excited to see what his next name is.
2/13/13 3:40 PM
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ManWithTheIronFists
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Wrestling faggots are getting butt hurt that not everyone loves their boring art.
2/13/13 3:59 PM
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liquidrob
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"What's he going to do? Wrestle me to death?" - Phil Baroni
2/13/13 4:06 PM
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GriffinQ
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gamer - 1. Certain styles of wrestling dont even allow clinching or only allow clinching

Clinching however is always taught very well in BJJ and or submission grappling.


2. "Anyone who has ever spent time in a wrestling room has learned submissions"

That is a completely ignorant statement and you are just talking out of your ass. I already explained it all to you

I stopped reading what you had to say after that

You are consistently one of the worst posters here




What's ignorant about that statement, oh ye of the multiple bannings? And would you like me to refer to you as Thiaguy, or Strength, or LegKickToTheHead , or Viva, or gamer?

Odd that someone who has been banned upwards of 5 times in the span of 5 months is calling someone who has never been banned a bad poster... Phone Post
2/13/13 4:19 PM
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epic hero
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GriffinQ - 
gamer - 1. Certain styles of wrestling dont even allow clinching or only allow clinching

Clinching however is always taught very well in BJJ and or submission grappling.


2. "Anyone who has ever spent time in a wrestling room has learned submissions"

That is a completely ignorant statement and you are just talking out of your ass. I already explained it all to you

I stopped reading what you had to say after that

You are consistently one of the worst posters here




What's ignorant about that statement, oh ye of the multiple bannings? And would you like me to refer to you as Thiaguy, or Strength, or LegKickToTheHead , or Viva, or gamer?

Odd that someone who has been banned upwards of 5 times in the span of 5 months is calling someone who has never been banned a bad poster... Phone Post

When you take someone down and break their arm(with a submission) that is applying jiu-jitsu and not solely wrestling. Jones is correct in his statement, fights or not finished or won with wrestling, but by utilizing your dominant skill combined with all the other facets of mma.

The issue is that wrestling fanboys just want to give credit to wrestling and not give credit to the other discipline's of mma, when in reality it is the training in these other discipline's which allows them to be successful in the first place.
2/13/13 4:20 PM
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punchyone
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ausgepicht -
gamer - I hate to agree with Jones, but the fact is, Jones is right regardless

Wrestling by itself can not finish fights

It can only get you into position

Striking and BJJ is what finishes fights

Striking arts and submission arts are legitimate martial arts

Etc., etc. Besides the slams, all the positioning, control ties, scrambles, work ethic, training, competition experience, and more from wrestling wins these fights.

Wait we're is Gray Maynard's fight with rob Emerson? Double TKO, from wrestling. Phone Post
2/13/13 4:26 PM
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ausgepicht
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punchyone -
ausgepicht -
gamer - I hate to agree with Jones, but the fact is, Jones is right regardless

Wrestling by itself can not finish fights

It can only get you into position

Striking and BJJ is what finishes fights

Striking arts and submission arts are legitimate martial arts

Etc., etc. Besides the slams, all the positioning, control ties, scrambles, work ethic, training, competition experience, and more from wrestling wins these fights.

Wait we're is Gray Maynard's fight with rob Emerson? Double TKO, from wrestling. Phone Post
It's in there unless it was blocked. Phone Post
2/13/13 4:27 PM
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GriffinQ
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epic hero -
GriffinQ - 
gamer - 1. Certain styles of wrestling dont even allow clinching or only allow clinching

Clinching however is always taught very well in BJJ and or submission grappling.


2. "Anyone who has ever spent time in a wrestling room has learned submissions"

That is a completely ignorant statement and you are just talking out of your ass. I already explained it all to you

I stopped reading what you had to say after that

You are consistently one of the worst posters here




What's ignorant about that statement, oh ye of the multiple bannings? And would you like me to refer to you as Thiaguy, or Strength, or LegKickToTheHead , or Viva, or gamer?

Odd that someone who has been banned upwards of 5 times in the span of 5 months is calling someone who has never been banned a bad poster... Phone Post

When you take someone down and break their arm(with a submission) that is applying jiu-jitsu and not solely wrestling. Jones is correct in his statement, fights or not finished or won with wrestling, but by utilizing your dominant skill combined with all the other facets of mma.

The issue is that wrestling fanboys just want to give credit to wrestling and not give credit to the other discipline's of mma, when in reality it is the training in these other discipline's which allows them to be successful in the first place.
I have no problem giving credit to other facets of MMA. Learning BJJ is completely necessary to learning both the guard and defense against many subs.

But your example is still incorrect. Someone can take someone down, and apply a submission hold entirely from wrestling without ever studying or seeing BJJ, and break someone's arm. I'm not sure why it's so difficult for people to accept that wrestling does have submissions , they're just not the focus of the current popular rule sets of American and International wrestling. Submissions have existed long before BJJ. Phone Post
2/13/13 4:34 PM
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punchyone
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ausgepicht -
punchyone -
ausgepicht -
gamer - I hate to agree with Jones, but the fact is, Jones is right regardless

Wrestling by itself can not finish fights

It can only get you into position

Striking and BJJ is what finishes fights

Striking arts and submission arts are legitimate martial arts

Etc., etc. Besides the slams, all the positioning, control ties, scrambles, work ethic, training, competition experience, and more from wrestling wins these fights.

Wait we're is Gray Maynard's fight with rob Emerson? Double TKO, from wrestling. Phone Post
It's in there unless it was blocked. Phone Post
Upon further review.. You are correct, I am an Unobservant fucktard, carry on. Phone Post
2/13/13 4:34 PM
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epic hero
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It's applying jiu-jitsu any way you put it, doesn't matter

Name me dominant wrestlers in mma who don't spend vast amounts of time training in all the other disciplines. You will not be a high level submission grappler without having a sound understanding of jiu-jitsu, that is a fact
2/13/13 4:43 PM
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GriffinQ
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epic hero - It's applying jiu-jitsu any way you put it, doesn't matter

Name me dominant wrestlers in mma who don't spend vast amounts of time training in all the other disciplines. You will not be a high level submission grappler without having a sound understanding of jiu-jitsu, that is a fact
Why? Why is it wrestlers applying Jiu-jitsu and not vice versa? Considering wrestling is the older and more widespread art...

I just said why wrestlers need to learn BJJ. The guard is a creation of BJJ(AFAIK)... Learning how to negate it,incorporate it, and deal with it is necessary. But that does not mean that all finishes applied by wrestlers are due to studying jiu-jitsu. I already gave an example of Hughes' front headlock on Almeida, a wrestling move that he used and said he gained in wrestling, not in Jiu-jitsu. Phone Post
2/13/13 4:48 PM
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GriffinQ
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epic hero - It's applying jiu-jitsu any way you put it, doesn't matter

Name me dominant wrestlers in mma who don't spend vast amounts of time training in all the other disciplines. You will not be a high level submission grappler without having a sound understanding of jiu-jitsu, that is a fact
And in terms of grapplers in MMA who don't/didn't use Jiu-jitsu as their grappling style, yet are still submission based fighters:

Barnett, Sakuraba, Frank Shamrock Phone Post

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