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S&C UnderGround >> Muscle building without gym.


2/18/13 4:51 PM
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HULC
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"Dude, do you guys really think that a "bulgarian handstand pushup" is anywhere within the realm of ability for an average Joe?"

It's just as attainable for the average joe as hitting elite weight training standards with the military press is.
2/18/13 4:54 PM
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HULC
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"Jesus, I could take 60-75 percent of average men and get them to a 315 squat, but I know very few (including active athletes) who aren't gymnasts who could do a ring handstand pushup."

How many average people could you teach to squat over 900 lbs?

315 lbs isn't remotely near elite standards, yet you're comparing it to some of the hardest gymnastic skills to master. It's a complete straw man.
2/18/13 6:02 PM
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Taku
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I think there is a middle ground here.

The truth is only a tiny % of people will ever achieve elite Gymnastics moves. Only a tiny % of people will ever achieve elite P-lifting numbers...This goes on and on. Elite athletes are born not made. In the not too distant future, I am sure the elite athletes will be manufactured through genetic manipulation etc. But for now, it's what you're born with that counts most.

IMHO, there is no valid reason an average person should strive to do either of these things (learn high level gymnastics moves, or reach elite P-lifiting numbers). I am not saying one should not strive to improve, to test ones limits and to challenge oneself. What I am saying is it is silly to place these certain criteria as if they are required for health, fitness, function etc.

Like the CF standards...Totally arbitrary.The 300 - 400 - 500 for Bench, Squat DL.

By all means, challenge yourself. Do what you like, like what you do. But the only peron you really need to compare yourself to is you. Be the best you that you can be. And strive for the things that you feel are important.

Don't get hung up on all the other stuff. 

TAKU

2/18/13 7:10 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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HULC - "Jesus, I could take 60-75 percent of average men and get them to a 315 squat, but I know very few (including active athletes) who aren't gymnasts who could do a ring handstand pushup."

How many average people could you teach to squat over 900 lbs?

315 lbs isn't remotely near elite standards, yet you're comparing it to some of the hardest gymnastic skills to master. It's a complete straw man.

I was comparing it since AR stated that a Bulgarian Handstand Pushup was within normal people's level of achievement. So yes, I think we agree. Hitting a BHP is nowhere near the level of a 315 squat. A 315 squat is a lot easier.

Now, as for a 900 pound squat not being Elite, according to the IPF, we'd have to do some guessing, but a 900 pound squat is easily Elite.

To qualify for Elite status under the IPF as a raw lifter, the 3 lift total must be 2023 pounds or greater (Note, this is at the heaviest weight class of 275 pounds plus). But, let's use an average weight since we're talking average Joes of 190 pounds or so, so the 90 kilo weight class. They only need to lift 1730 pounds to qualify as Elite.

http://www.usapowerlifting.com/lifterscorner/ipfclass.shtml


Now, considering that the squat is usually a bit lighter than the deadlift, but is heavier than the bench press, 900 pounds is well over what an Elite lifter would expect as the bottom of the qualification levels.

In fact, if a lifter could at 190 pounds squat 900 and deadlift the same amount, they'd qualify for Elite status even if they only bench pressed the empty bar once.
2/18/13 11:46 PM
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HERTSWENIP
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HULC - Take a look at a male gymnast if you want to see how muscular bodyweight exercises can get you.

Of course it's easier to do it with weights, but it can be done without as well.

Comparing what gymnast's do, to conventional calisthenics like pushups and situps is apples and oranges imo. Not worth bringing up, unless he's going to get a gymnastic's coach.
2/19/13 5:07 AM
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Leigh
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I did gymnastics a while back at a proper gymnastics facility. I was by far the most muscular person there. It wasn't close. I'm 5'7 and about 150lbs. The most athletic guys looked like I did before I started lifting.
2/19/13 6:03 AM
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banco
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HULC - Take a look at a male gymnast if you want to see how muscular bodyweight exercises can get you.

Of course it's easier to do it with weights, but it can be done without as well.

It's much, much easier with weights. I don't know why people make things so hard if you want to put on 20 pounds of muscle forget bodyweight stuff and start squatting. Why take the most indirect route to a goal?
2/19/13 7:20 PM
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The Gunslinger
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One thing that is difficult about gymnastics movements is the dedication it takes to get through the progressions. I've done a lot of very basic movements-levers, weighted muscle ups, full handstand pushups on parallettes and other things. Beast skills has a lot of progressions and a few other sites as well. It's much much easier to take a person and teach them basic barbell work and add 5lbs each time. People are always amazed at the progress they make on my programs. It's because they are simple and focus on progression on the basic movements. I can't count the number of times people have spent YEARS and a lot more money on training from other trainers and do better in a couple of months on my program. The point being that simplicity is better than complex and most people make things too complex. You can get muscular if you have the genes and can spend a decade becoming a high level gymnast. The thing is you can learn basic weightlifting and do it more quickly and have the results in a much quicker period of time and putting in less training time each week.
2/19/13 8:46 PM
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JamesDean57
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Theflesh22 -  Possible? How far can you get with dumbbells, kettlebells, and body weight alone? Phone Post

This guy has some good advice for body weight training on his site.

http://boultertraining.com/
2/20/13 4:57 AM
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JZilla
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^^ Simon boulter built his body lifting weights
There's old vids of him lifting big weights and talking about challenging the British bench press record in his weight class etc Phone Post
2/20/13 9:41 AM
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JamesDean57
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I didn't say anything about how he built his body.

I said he has some good advice for body weight training on his site.
2/21/13 3:18 AM
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JFC1001
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The one thing that is overlooked here is age and injuries. I have had a series of significant injuries especially spinal and this has prevented me from going back to squats / deadlifts. As you get older flexibility, range of motion and heath are more important than appearance. I'm very much still athletic, however, I can't squat 160 kilos anymore but I can do bodyweight leg pistols and entry of pull up and chin ups. Just my 2c. Phone Post
2/21/13 3:20 AM
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JFC1001
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Steve Maxwell is 60 years old and look at his physique. Just bodyweight and kettlebells. Phone Post

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