UnderGround Forums
 

OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


10/28/13 9:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
617 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3845
The way my path took me, as a young infantry soldier, learning Battle Drill 2: React to Contact, we learn that Violence Of Action will carry the day.

The proper steps in a react to contact are:
1) Return Fire
2) ID Threat
3) Disseminate Information
4) Make a decision.

Returning Fire first indicates to our enemy that while they may not have been looking for a 'pipe hitter', they have in fact found one, and violence of action is immediately represented by fast and accurate fire.

And so Violence of Action begets training:

We want to destroy our threat, and not harm anyone other than those that present a threat, (such as a typical engagement scenario for police officers or armed citizens)

And training allows us to respond violently and competently without endangering others.

So we have the circle of Armed Conflict.
10/28/13 10:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15543
morotetsuke - Question blows rhym. Makes my stomach hurt.

Jed.....Excluding practice, training and repetition....cause a lot of peeps, despite having these, have advanced to the rear or have locked up.

Hell, I'd even say excluding speed. Cause everyone is fast and Cause an 870 can be fired 3x so fast a dude on perimeter will swear someone had an auto...or so I've heard.

What gives you this "cool head under pressure"? What made you move forward and think and act when the proverbial poo starts flying. Is it a low controllable undercurrent of anger....that makes you go f-you, not today m'fer?


Why does my question blow?
10/28/13 11:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
morotetsuke
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/29/09
Posts: 3333
rhym,

dont take it the wrong way. i meant no disrespect. its just unpleasant (at least to me)cause i'm old and slow.

jed,

i guess when you're as well trained as you guys are it doesnt translate the same to the less trained. i was just curious about the will(power) part. i have seen some folks leave (the smart ones), some folks freeze (good, shoot at him), and some move forward (i got nothin here).

a gentleman once wrote, "Mindset wins the fight…and domination of the situation deals death!" seemed corny when i read it...but it aint so much after. at the end of the day when the replay starts going off in my head and you cut away the situational flak....i thought...it was a low undercurrent of controlled anger that gave focus, speed, and control of the fear. thats where the mindset came from that allowed me to be aggressive enough quickly enough.

10/29/13 12:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15544
yeah, here's the thing, I don't command respect on this thread, so no disrespect taken. :)

I get the mindset thing. Totally. It's like when you're a new blue belt and some muscle bound new guy comes in to the academy for his first class. You would suffer any injury, endure any pain, persevere through any fatigue to beat him when it comes time to roll. With your skills and physicality you may not have the tools to beat him easily, but your mindset will not allow you to lose.

I'm just asking about a specific thing, which is, how fast do people shoot in a gunfight? Because if the answer is "really fast" or even "faster than they're used to" then I would make the argument that the age-old axiom that "speed is fine, but accuracy is final," when it comes to training, is a huge mistake.

Again, I'm just referencing the shooting-mechanics aspect, not the other parts which appear to be far, far more important, and on which I'm not remotely qualified to present an opinion.
10/29/13 3:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14015
Gary G:

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF.


This cannot be understated. I went to an Ivy League undergrad, was a White House intern and I still count JLG as among the most fiercely intelligent guys I've ever met. Incredible writer as well. Incredibly use of economy of language. No wasted words. While reading his book, there was not a single time I was ever like "I wonder if this is what he means." The information just flows from his brain to yours--and that's the goal of written language.

I failed the qual the first time I did it as well. Time pressure is lightning quick. And if you throw a single one off the target, you are *DQ*.
10/29/13 3:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14016
The amount of speed required is inversely proportional with the distance to the target. And since most LE and civilian defensive shootings occur @ 7 yards and in, I'm assuming that the pace is, indeed, faster that competition.
10/29/13 10:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GaryG
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/16/00
Posts: 5434
Gforce - 
Gary G:

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF.


This cannot be understated. I went to an Ivy League undergrad, was a White House intern and I still count JLG as among the most fiercely intelligent guys I've ever met. Incredible writer as well. Incredibly use of economy of language. No wasted words. While reading his book, there was not a single time I was ever like "I wonder if this is what he means." The information just flows from his brain to yours--and that's the goal of written language.

I failed the qual the first time I did it as well. Time pressure is lightning quick. And if you throw a single one off the target, you are *DQ*.

The DQ's when scoring targets on the first morning of class destroyed my score. Lesson learned.
10/29/13 10:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15545
Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?
10/29/13 12:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 273
Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

I heard a JG interview on ballistic radio (free on website) where he described his test. With your skills I doubt you'd have a problem passing it Rym.

I really like instructors who have standards. if you don't have an objective way tho measure yourself against a standard, your own improvement, and against others how do you really know if you are getting better or if you don't just plain suck?

That's the ONE thing i did appreciate about Front Sight. I've seen lots of guys who thought very highly of their skills - cops, DHS, military, competition shooters, and even instructors fail on that test. Not that its THAT hard, but that they overestimated their skill level. I've seen guys lose it when they saw how poorly they did. It was a big wakeup call for them - as it was for me the first time I took it.
10/29/13 12:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GaryG
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/16/00
Posts: 5435
Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

Short answer. I don't know, I've never found anything on the internet.

Long answer. The way I'd describe it is cut the A zone in half for bullseye, and any Mike is a DQ (not in the USPSA meaning of the word) for that COF, meaning you get zero points for that COF. I don't remember what the point deductions were if you hit the human shaped target, but missed the smaller bull. If you hit the line between scoring areas you get the lower score. If you hit outside the human shaped target, but still hit the target paper DQ. Miss the target completely DQ. So in a 10 shot string, one Mike = no points for that evo.

Jeff uses his own targets not IPSC. I'd be amazed if you didn't pass his HG2 standards, but I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't find the class worthwhile.
10/29/13 1:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
michael76706
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/12/06
Posts: 317
in
10/29/13 4:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ahren_nhb
267 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 22624

A friend of mine has gone to Bill Roger's school several times.

Can any of you guys give me input on his school/ classes?

10/29/13 6:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15548
I've been thinking quite a bit about the concept of speed in a gunfight. I thought I would put together a couple of thoughts on how to develop accuracy at speed, assuming a gunfight will include shooting fast. My thought is that it's better to develop your technique for shooting at speed ahead of time, rather than hoping it works out in the heat of the moment.

So here goes:

I often hear instructors caution students to "find the balance between speed and accuracy." That's not instruction, that's re-enforcing current habits and skills.
Allow me to explain. The way it seems to work is this: Take a new student - first they have to develop the ability to make a given shot without a time limit. We could be talking about any difficulty of shot, but for argument's sake let's say we're talking about a single shot on a 3x5 index card at 7 yards. Making this shot involves the bare basics - basically just sight picture and trigger control. The student could accomplish this single shot with literally any method and combination of grip, stance, trigger control, and sight picture. They may struggle at first, but eventually they should be able to consistently make the shot without a time limit.

Things start getting interesting when we add extra shots, and they get even more interesting when we speed things up.
Now the student fires two shots at the card, and while the first one hits, the second shot misses. How many instructors would say - regardless of the time it took to fire the 2nd shot - to slow down? I think a lot of them. But did he miss because he was going too fast, or because the recoil from the first shot disrupted his grip, distracted his sight picture, pushed him backward a bit, and made him focus on the "bang" instead of his trigger control?

There is a pace in which a person of a given skill level can accomplish certain shots, and faster than that they cannot. As the speed increases their grip breaks down, their trigger control becomes erratic, issues with their stance start to manifest, they can no longer see an acceptable sight picture, etc. They may not feel those things happening; they may just see bad hits and think that the speed is the problem. The speed isn't the problem - the speed reveals problems. Slowing down doesn't fix the problems, it just hides them again.

To fix the issues the student should incrementally speed up. Go to the point that the wheels are starting to fall off! Then he should experiment with different techniques that allow him to make the same hits at this faster speed. This will involve providing a more stable stance, a firmer grip that controls recoil better, a more refined trigger control technique, sighting abilities that allow him to see more/faster, etc. Once this is accomplished, the student will have a new speed at which he can accomplish the same accuracy. Then he can go repeat the cycle to refine his technique further.
Of course, if it works fast it will work slowly, so there is no need to change techniques when slowing down.

To go a step further, even if you dramatically increase the difficulty level, you don't need to physically and mentally slow down to make the hits. Let's take that same 3x5 card and now put it at 20 yards. Do you have to "slow down" to hit it? Not really - you can still go "fast," but you may be slower (on the clock) to get an acceptable sight picture and to put the appropriate attention on your trigger control. It's like driving a race car through a corner: The driver is still using the same level of focus, effort, will, etc. (in fact it's probably an enhanced level), but the conditions result in the car moving more slowly than in a straight. The driver isn't "slowing down to hit the apex," he's adjusting the way he drives the car to go through the apex as fast as he can.

This kind of thing is important if you want to develop your skills for a game like IPSC, but if real gunfighting also involves shooting fast, then this is the way to develop accuracy at speed. Finding a "balance between speed and accuracy" in training only means slowing yourself down to your current ability level; it does nothing to improve that ability level. The old saw "speed is fine but accuracy is final" surely makes sense in that you have to have accurate shots to stop a threat; however, if you don't push the speed in training – and assuming a gunfight will involve shooting fast – then you could be hoping to rise to the level of the occasion rather than fall to the level of your training.
10/29/13 10:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3819
I like the idea a lot Rhyme, but you are giving recruits (And cops on my dept) WAY too much credit. In my state, the INSTRUCTOR qual involves shooting a 2 x 4 square with 5 rounds at 7 yards. Good lord, we have people failing qualifications when all they have to do is be "inside the bottle" on a Q target with no shooting done at more than 15 yards!

Also, many of the instructors couldn't tell you why a shooter is missing. They lack diagnostic skills. Instead, they pull that goofy bullseye chart out of their pocket and say, "AH! Looks like you're anticipating recoil!" And then can give them no advice as to how to correct it. They didn't really want to be firearms instructors - they wanted the piece of paper for the next position they applied for.

There are some firearms instructors that are shooters, and we've talked about diagnostic procedures with newer shooters. Although we all disagree to some extent, we now evaluate new shooters from the feet up while shooting. Watching weight transfer in feet, etc. You get the idea. And we all agree that our goal should be faster and more accurate fire.

When you have students starting at square one in the academy, it's tough to speed up anything because of stragglers and political correctness. There's also a limited amount of time dedicated to firearms training. You see, we have to have time for Domestic violence scenarios, Lesbian/Gay/Bigender/Transexual sensitivity training, Verbal Judo, and Command Spanish. For now, until we have more say, recruits will learn only basic competence in the academy and have to seek excellence on their own.

I'm hoping to provide them with the opportunity and knowledge to do so. Right now I'm opening up our department range once every 6 days in hopes that guys will come out and work on some fundamental drills. Honestly, its main purpose is my own practice to beat down some loudmouths, but if anybody else shows up, I'm more than happy to help.
10/29/13 10:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3820
Oh, and for people asking how "fast" shots are fired in a gunfight, the FBI puts the number of shots fired by bad guys in law enforcement related shootings at about 4 rounds per second. I'll have to see if I can find the actual reference.
10/29/13 10:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15549
Good points, Owen.

My intention wasn't to lay out a paradigm for new recruits at the academy - it's more of a primer for people who can already make shots, but want to start pushing for more speed.

Ultimately, it's just a method for refining the basics. If a new recruit or instructor isn't aware of those basics, then everything I wrote above is just a waste of ammo. lol.

It was intended for you guys who actually give a shit and know your way around a shooting range.
10/30/13 6:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jac0bear
89 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/13/10
Posts: 6872
Man these last few post are awesome. Thanks for typing those mini novels guys! Phone Post 3.0
10/30/13 11:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
323 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15556
Owen Gregg - Oh, and for people asking how "fast" shots are fired in a gunfight, the FBI puts the number of shots fired by bad guys in law enforcement related shootings at about 4 rounds per second. I'll have to see if I can find the actual reference.

4 rounds per second is a .25 split. That's plenty fast.

Let me put it this way: You could win literally any IPSC match shooting about that fast.* In fact, if you watch Bob Vogel, he almost never shoots faster than that, unless it's on some ridiculously close targets.

Shooting that fast (accurately) isn't easy, and you don't get there by not prioritizing speed to a large extent, even if it means you shoot some shitty shots in training.

*Unless Eric Grauffel is in your division, in which case you're just fucked.
10/30/13 11:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
williepep
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/2/07
Posts: 7492
I have a lot of catching up to do on this thread, thanks to all for great questions/answers and information.


Funny to see two AL folks among the instructors that keep popping up on the thread.


BTW any of you guys ever tried John M's sling ?

http://www.missionreadyequipment.com/sheriff-of-baghdad-b-sling


You can also buy some fancy britches and luggage on the website.


Kyle Defoor is a "brand ambassador" on the site and can be found with product reviews.


10/30/13 11:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14021
Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

Not secret--I just forget it. I'll drop an e-mail and ask.

Speaking of JLG, he's got a great article on mini-red dots on pistols.

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/are-mini-red-dot-sights-a-viable-option-for-pistols-jeff-gonzales-joins-us-for-a-qa/

The borrowed pistol that he refers to trying in the paragraphs below the first picture is actually owned by none other than yours truly.
10/31/13 12:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14022
In the meantime, here is the TRICON rifle qual (AKA Modified Navy Qual). If a bluenamer could embed..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv5epCk5KRY
10/31/13 12:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
williepep
17 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/2/07
Posts: 7493
Gforce - 
Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

Not secret--I just forget it. I'll drop an e-mail and ask.

Speaking of JLG, he's got a great article on mini-red dots on pistols.

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/are-mini-red-dot-sights-a-viable-option-for-pistols-jeff-gonzales-joins-us-for-a-qa/

The borrowed pistol that he refers to trying in the paragraphs below the first picture is actually owned by none other than yours truly.

Thanks.


I remember you gave me a bit of advice when I was thinking about one, iirc shot show was a few months away, and you mentioned you had heard rumors another player was about to enter the mix.

Anyway thanks for the article.

10/31/13 5:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14028
Yeah, looks like it didn't happen, although they did go to totally new internals for the RMR and RMR-A shortly thereafter.

SHOT is right around the corner--will be interesting to see what it brings.
10/31/13 2:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 274
n2bateyou - 

I'm considering taking a class from Pat McNamara in March of next year. This one

 

http://forum.snipershide.com/training-classes/215474-pat-mcnamara-4-day-le-taps-class-march-31-april-3-2014-tucson-az.html

 

any of you guys interested in attending? It's in Tuscon AZ. I'd split the hotel cost with you, hold the door open for you, let you rub my back after a long day at the range....

 

no homo

 

One of you silly bastards has to have the time


Is it LE only?
10/31/13 5:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 275
Looks like a great course.

Class fee, ammo, gas, and lodging would make it about a 2k hit………With six days away from home and 1000 plus miles of driving.

Pretty serious commitment. He's is on "my list" and I'm trying to take at least one class a year from a premier instructor, but 2k? If I was in Tucson or if he came to SoCal, I'd be there in a heartbeat. I'm going to have to think about this one a bit…..

If I did go I'd probably be to tired to give you a back rub though….maybe just some cuddling.



Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.