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10/28/13 12:36 PM
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GaryG
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n2bateyou - 
tyronehernandez -
n2bateyou - 
GaryG - I'd be interested your thoughts after you take DeFoors class. Hell I'm interested in anything you'd be willing to share about Proctor, Fortin, and McPhee.

Anybody taken any classes with Scott Reitz?

Yes I took a pistol class with reitz or Uncle Scotty as he likes to be called. Most of his training cadre is LAPD SWAT. When I found that out on the first morning I expected a lot of self promotion and general douchebaggery. I was very wrong.

They were all great instructors, gave practical advice, were very knowledgeable and personable.

Uncle Scotty knows his shit on multiple platforms, and truly seems to enjoy training people. He will give you a lot of shit if he feels like it, all in good fun though.

ITTS was money and time well spent IMO Phone Post 3.0

I have a different view of ITTS. I took up to level 2 in both HG, Carbine, and SG when I first started learning to shoot years ago and before exploring other training options.

I'm hesitant to post negative training reviews as this is a pretty small community but I will say that if you are expecting to learn to shoot modern isosceles with a handgun or thumb over bore with a carbine you will be disappointed. Its not a "Magpul type" school and though many of his SWAT guys are open to modernizing, Scotty is VERY set in his ways. Its all pretty standard Cooper derived modern technique.

I've noticed that honest training reviews seem hard to come by for some reason and there is a great deal of hero worship involved the same as in the martial arts. Just see how hard it is to find a negative review of Front Sight.

I suggest checking out his book before you decide to train there. If you like the book, you'll most likely like his classes as well. IMO the book is WAY over priced for what it is but still far cheaper than a class would be.

You can also check out the video of him vs spencer to get a VERY SMALL glimpse into his personality, technique, and training philosophy. If you like what you see, most likely, you'll enjoy his classes too.

That's all I'm really willing to say about ITTS.

And regarding skipping 2 and going straight to 3, I'm pretty sure they won't allow that unless you have taken an outside class that they deem an appropriate prerequisite for level 3 and a substitute for their level 2 classes.
Having trained at both places and others, I can find fault with either place on some of the details. Isosceles, weaver/modified weaver, if your training offering have a way to make either work consistently and efficiently, pick what works best for you and your body type and train until you are excellent at utilizing.

Then train in the other methods that don't work as well, including weak hand, non-dominant eye, improvised positions etc.

No one school will have all the answers for everyone, but having been to a few different places to train, I've found different views useful in my own progression. I try to refrain from drinking any one flavor of kool-aid too much until I'm at the point where I can train myself to as near perfection as possible ( which is a very long way off)

So I get what you are saying about the schools and instructors but I try to leave the bad and take the good. Phone Post 3.0

Much wisdom here. TH brings up a good point about AAR's but N2 articulated my thoughts better than I could have said it.

Thanks to everyone who posted their experiences with different instructors. Much appreciated.
10/28/13 1:16 PM
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GaryG
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FWIW

I've taken Defoors pistol class twice and will again. I shoot his standards pretty regularly in LF practice because they provide me (IMHO)the most benefit for the limited time I've got available. The first time I took his class it was definitely drinking from a firehouse, and I'm still having AHa moments. I can't articulate enough how unique and all the intangibles that are in a defoor class vs a std gun class.

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF. I also like that he quantifies everyone's performance, and you need to meet his standards (80%)to pass. I scored a 62. I'll be back.

Both Jeff and Kyle can teach and communicate well (but each has a different style) Both know the subject matter unbelievably well, provide individual attention, and still make the class fun.

Another guy I'll mention is Craig Douglas aka South Narc. I did EWO with him. I want to do ECQC. I need more FOF training, not quite sure how to pursue that as a nonLEO.

I've taken other classes with other instructors ( I really should be better than my current skill set shows) but for my goals I'd be happy exclusively taking classes just from the three I mentioned above.

Of course, I'd still want to take classes from other instructors. Paul Howe, Ben Stoeger, and Jedburgh1 are on the top of that list.

FRAT!

10/28/13 1:40 PM
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effinggoof
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GaryG - FWIW

I've taken Defoors pistol class twice and will again. I shoot his standards pretty regularly in LF practice because they provide me (IMHO)the most benefit for the limited time I've got available. The first time I took his class it was definitely drinking from a firehouse, and I'm still having AHa moments. I can't articulate enough how unique and all the intangibles that are in a defoor class vs a std gun class.

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF. I also like that he quantifies everyone's performance, and you need to meet his standards (80%)to pass. I scored a 62. I'll be back.

Both Jeff and Kyle can teach and communicate well (but each has a different style) Both know the subject matter unbelievably well, provide individual attention, and still make the class fun.

Another guy I'll mention is Craig Douglas aka South Narc. I did EWO with him. I want to do ECQC. I need more FOF training, not quite sure how to pursue that as a nonLEO.

I've taken other classes with other instructors ( I really should be better than my current skill set shows) but for my goals I'd be happy exclusively taking classes just from the three I mentioned above.

Of course, I'd still want to take classes from other instructors. Paul Howe, Ben Stoeger, and Jedburgh1 are on the top of that list.

FRAT!


Craigs ECQC is awesome.
10/28/13 1:52 PM
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IP
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For you guys that have taken shooting courses:

Can you list the top 2 things you took from each class that you feel can benefit others (pointers)?
10/28/13 2:06 PM
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tyronehernandez
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effinggoof - 
GaryG - FWIW

I've taken Defoors pistol class twice and will again. I shoot his standards pretty regularly in LF practice because they provide me (IMHO)the most benefit for the limited time I've got available. The first time I took his class it was definitely drinking from a firehouse, and I'm still having AHa moments. I can't articulate enough how unique and all the intangibles that are in a defoor class vs a std gun class.

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF. I also like that he quantifies everyone's performance, and you need to meet his standards (80%)to pass. I scored a 62. I'll be back.

Both Jeff and Kyle can teach and communicate well (but each has a different style) Both know the subject matter unbelievably well, provide individual attention, and still make the class fun.

Another guy I'll mention is Craig Douglas aka South Narc. I did EWO with him. I want to do ECQC. I need more FOF training, not quite sure how to pursue that as a nonLEO.

I've taken other classes with other instructors ( I really should be better than my current skill set shows) but for my goals I'd be happy exclusively taking classes just from the three I mentioned above.

Of course, I'd still want to take classes from other instructors. Paul Howe, Ben Stoeger, and Jedburgh1 are on the top of that list.

FRAT!


Craigs ECQC is awesome.

can you please describe that course?
10/28/13 2:52 PM
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tyronehernandez
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One other thing I'll say about Reitz is that while he doesn't actually come out and say not to compete, he really disparages it at almost every opportunity as just about worthless for "real gunfighting" (which is what he proclaims to teach). He really implies that not only is it worthless but can be dangerous as well. IMO the effect on the students is to discourage competing.
10/28/13 3:11 PM
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effinggoof
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ECQC...Extreme Close Quarter Concepts is a course where, using a mix of live fire, simmunition and some elementary striking and grappling drills, the student will learn techniques for dealing with criminal assault.

ECQC is based on the idea that for most people, you only know that your are about to be a victim of a mugging, assault or rape when one or more fuckheads are trying to dump you on the ground and stomp you.

There is a fair amount of talk about criminal mindset, how crime happens and "Managing Unknown Contacts" so you dont get ambushed by crackheads.

In ECQC guys practice stuff like how to stuff a takedown, then draw and fire while still entangled with an assailant.

How to draw and fire while engaged in a fight on the ground.

How to draw and fire while seated at a table.

Weapon retention/disarms.

It's a really interesting, physically challenging few days.

For me ( an experienced, if not particularly talented grappler) I took away a lot of information on how I should be thinking about grappling as a self defence option, when everyone there, including me might have a gun/knife/sap that could come out at any time.

Most of the people there had NO real grappling experience, and it really brutalised those guys.

During scenarios, FIST helmets and mouthguards are worn, so light/moderate striking comes into play as well.

It's a really great chance to audit your skills/gear to see how they hold up in a contact environment.
10/28/13 3:14 PM
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effinggoof
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ECQC is not so much a shooting course, as it a grappling course with a shooting component.

ECQC...Extreme Close Quarter Concepts is a course where, using a mix of live fire, simmunition and some elementary striking and grappling drills, the student will learn techniques for dealing with criminal assault.

ECQC is based on the idea that for most people, you only know that your are about to be a victim of a mugging, assault or rape when one or more fuckheads are trying to dump you on the ground and stomp you.

There is a fair amount of talk about criminal mindset, how crime happens and "Managing Unknown Contacts" so you dont get ambushed by crackheads.

In ECQC guys practice stuff like how to stuff a takedown, then draw and fire while still entangled with an assailant.

How to draw and fire while engaged in a fight on the ground.

How to draw and fire while seated at a table.

Weapon retention/disarms.

It's a really interesting, physically challenging few days.

For me ( an experienced, if not particularly talented grappler) I took away a lot of information on how I should be thinking about grappling as a self defence option, when everyone there, including me might have a gun/knife/sap that could come out at any time.

Most of the people there had NO real grappling experience, and it really brutalised those guys.

During scenarios, FIST helmets and mouthguards are worn, so light/moderate striking comes into play as well.

It's a really great chance to audit your skills/gear to see how they hold up in a contact environment.

10/28/13 3:16 PM
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IP
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^Very good course review, effinggoof.
10/28/13 3:35 PM
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effinggoof
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There are a few videos that people have posted online from ECQC courses.

This vid gives a good idea of some of the work that gets done in a course with a guy trying to draw and shoot while getting rushed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtUkeC7WwDc

10/28/13 5:40 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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I have a question for Jed and anyone else who has actually been in a gunfight.

I read an article recently, where this criticism of IDPA was made: "the shooting slows down to an unrealistic speed that is not reflected in the speed of actual engagements". IDPA is pretty damn slow, but is it slower than an actual gunfight?

I know there are no timers in a gunfight, but how would you describe the speed at which the shooting takes place? I'm sure there are shitloads of variables, but just a general description would be interesting.

Thanks.
10/28/13 7:41 PM
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Jedburgh1
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It's really difficult to gauge the actual length of time of a gunfight, the first few times.

And this quote "the shooting slows down to an unrealistic speed that is not reflected in the speed of actual engagements"

May be factually true, but I'd say all top IDPA competitors (GM class?) are shooting faster and more accurately than most folks in gunfights.

The stress overload, and triggering of fight or flight, makes us perceive time and external factors differently.

That's why you hear of suspects being shot 20-30 times. Guys get caught in a loop and just bam-bam-bam pull the trigger until you're at slide-lock. I think in that sense, then yes the quote above makes sense, but we're not talking about really fast, well-aimed shots in a gunfight. Typically we are encountering an over-stressed, under-trained individual (sometimes on both sides) who is just making noise, who may defeat their opponent through a series of lucky panic shots.

So personally, I think the shooting, at the top level, is faster in IDPA matches.

The footspeed, however, is a different variable. Can't nobody run as fast as someone who has just gained full awareness of their own mortality.

Really the most successful guys are the ones who can process the information the quickest, with a minimum of panic a 'cool head under pressure'

From IDing a threat, to deciding to engage, to engaging, we want our thought process to be seamless, which is what makes us deadly.

Another variable to consider is 'buck fever' in people of all types. Gun fights have been won and lost from this aspect alone.
10/28/13 8:30 PM
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morotetsuke
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Question blows rhym. Makes my stomach hurt.

Jed.....Excluding practice, training and repetition....cause a lot of peeps, despite having these, have advanced to the rear or have locked up.

Hell, I'd even say excluding speed. Cause everyone is fast and Cause an 870 can be fired 3x so fast a dude on perimeter will swear someone had an auto...or so I've heard.

What gives you this "cool head under pressure"? What made you move forward and think and act when the proverbial poo starts flying. Is it a low controllable undercurrent of anger....that makes you go f-you, not today m'fer?

10/28/13 9:42 PM
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Jedburgh1
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The way my path took me, as a young infantry soldier, learning Battle Drill 2: React to Contact, we learn that Violence Of Action will carry the day.

The proper steps in a react to contact are:
1) Return Fire
2) ID Threat
3) Disseminate Information
4) Make a decision.

Returning Fire first indicates to our enemy that while they may not have been looking for a 'pipe hitter', they have in fact found one, and violence of action is immediately represented by fast and accurate fire.

And so Violence of Action begets training:

We want to destroy our threat, and not harm anyone other than those that present a threat, (such as a typical engagement scenario for police officers or armed citizens)

And training allows us to respond violently and competently without endangering others.

So we have the circle of Armed Conflict.
10/28/13 10:42 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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morotetsuke - Question blows rhym. Makes my stomach hurt.

Jed.....Excluding practice, training and repetition....cause a lot of peeps, despite having these, have advanced to the rear or have locked up.

Hell, I'd even say excluding speed. Cause everyone is fast and Cause an 870 can be fired 3x so fast a dude on perimeter will swear someone had an auto...or so I've heard.

What gives you this "cool head under pressure"? What made you move forward and think and act when the proverbial poo starts flying. Is it a low controllable undercurrent of anger....that makes you go f-you, not today m'fer?


Why does my question blow?
10/28/13 11:52 PM
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morotetsuke
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rhym,

dont take it the wrong way. i meant no disrespect. its just unpleasant (at least to me)cause i'm old and slow.

jed,

i guess when you're as well trained as you guys are it doesnt translate the same to the less trained. i was just curious about the will(power) part. i have seen some folks leave (the smart ones), some folks freeze (good, shoot at him), and some move forward (i got nothin here).

a gentleman once wrote, "Mindset wins the fight…and domination of the situation deals death!" seemed corny when i read it...but it aint so much after. at the end of the day when the replay starts going off in my head and you cut away the situational flak....i thought...it was a low undercurrent of controlled anger that gave focus, speed, and control of the fear. thats where the mindset came from that allowed me to be aggressive enough quickly enough.

10/29/13 12:01 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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yeah, here's the thing, I don't command respect on this thread, so no disrespect taken. :)

I get the mindset thing. Totally. It's like when you're a new blue belt and some muscle bound new guy comes in to the academy for his first class. You would suffer any injury, endure any pain, persevere through any fatigue to beat him when it comes time to roll. With your skills and physicality you may not have the tools to beat him easily, but your mindset will not allow you to lose.

I'm just asking about a specific thing, which is, how fast do people shoot in a gunfight? Because if the answer is "really fast" or even "faster than they're used to" then I would make the argument that the age-old axiom that "speed is fine, but accuracy is final," when it comes to training, is a huge mistake.

Again, I'm just referencing the shooting-mechanics aspect, not the other parts which appear to be far, far more important, and on which I'm not remotely qualified to present an opinion.
10/29/13 3:02 AM
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Gforce
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Gary G:

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF.


This cannot be understated. I went to an Ivy League undergrad, was a White House intern and I still count JLG as among the most fiercely intelligent guys I've ever met. Incredible writer as well. Incredibly use of economy of language. No wasted words. While reading his book, there was not a single time I was ever like "I wonder if this is what he means." The information just flows from his brain to yours--and that's the goal of written language.

I failed the qual the first time I did it as well. Time pressure is lightning quick. And if you throw a single one off the target, you are *DQ*.
10/29/13 3:06 AM
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Gforce
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The amount of speed required is inversely proportional with the distance to the target. And since most LE and civilian defensive shootings occur @ 7 yards and in, I'm assuming that the pace is, indeed, faster that competition.
10/29/13 10:23 AM
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GaryG
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Gforce - 
Gary G:

I've taken Jeff Gonzales HG2 once, and will take more classes with him. The strongest take away from Gonzales class is that he's one smart MF.


This cannot be understated. I went to an Ivy League undergrad, was a White House intern and I still count JLG as among the most fiercely intelligent guys I've ever met. Incredible writer as well. Incredibly use of economy of language. No wasted words. While reading his book, there was not a single time I was ever like "I wonder if this is what he means." The information just flows from his brain to yours--and that's the goal of written language.

I failed the qual the first time I did it as well. Time pressure is lightning quick. And if you throw a single one off the target, you are *DQ*.

The DQ's when scoring targets on the first morning of class destroyed my score. Lesson learned.
10/29/13 10:43 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?
10/29/13 12:18 PM
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tyronehernandez
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Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

I heard a JG interview on ballistic radio (free on website) where he described his test. With your skills I doubt you'd have a problem passing it Rym.

I really like instructors who have standards. if you don't have an objective way tho measure yourself against a standard, your own improvement, and against others how do you really know if you are getting better or if you don't just plain suck?

That's the ONE thing i did appreciate about Front Sight. I've seen lots of guys who thought very highly of their skills - cops, DHS, military, competition shooters, and even instructors fail on that test. Not that its THAT hard, but that they overestimated their skill level. I've seen guys lose it when they saw how poorly they did. It was a big wakeup call for them - as it was for me the first time I took it.
10/29/13 12:35 PM
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GaryG
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Rhymenoceros - Is his qual secret, or can I find it online somewhere?

Short answer. I don't know, I've never found anything on the internet.

Long answer. The way I'd describe it is cut the A zone in half for bullseye, and any Mike is a DQ (not in the USPSA meaning of the word) for that COF, meaning you get zero points for that COF. I don't remember what the point deductions were if you hit the human shaped target, but missed the smaller bull. If you hit the line between scoring areas you get the lower score. If you hit outside the human shaped target, but still hit the target paper DQ. Miss the target completely DQ. So in a 10 shot string, one Mike = no points for that evo.

Jeff uses his own targets not IPSC. I'd be amazed if you didn't pass his HG2 standards, but I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't find the class worthwhile.
10/29/13 1:50 PM
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michael76706
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in
10/29/13 4:12 PM
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Ahren_nhb
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A friend of mine has gone to Bill Roger's school several times.

Can any of you guys give me input on his school/ classes?


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