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OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


3/21/13 11:08 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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Ahren_nhb - 

I was reinforcing what you said, lol.


*sips coffee*

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Shit.
3/21/13 12:21 PM
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sreiter
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to add to the above....

i would separate SOF guys out from just military...and there we would get into tech v tac....also, i'd separate SOF into discipline too. As had been said. In the military, if you're down to your side arm, lots of shit has gone really wrong.

As such, not as much pistol training is emphasized. From pure hearsay, by people i trust, Delta would spend much more time on sidearms then seals would.
3/21/13 12:40 PM
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Lord Nitemare
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SEALs shoot handguns too bro

3/21/13 12:41 PM
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Jedburgh1
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I think the technical vs tactical schism is a good way to put it.

Any civilian that's involved in training SOF in shooting is being tapped for a niche specialization: faster draw-stroke, better target transitions etc. they are also big names in their field, not some backwater nobody.

That being said, anyone who has "tactical theory" that's never been tested, don't care.
I don't even get how these guys feel comfortable teaching tactics to other people if they've never validated themselves, stuff like CQB etc.
SOF has been killing and getting killed for over a decade now. We've got a good handle on what works and what doesn't. Phone Post
3/21/13 1:28 PM
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paw
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*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?

3/21/13 1:28 PM
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IP
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Instructors not wanting to full-speed demo in front of a class.

-I took an LAPD Arrest/Control instructor course where they incorporated that theory into their instruction. Their reasoning? First, they primarily teach in-house cops who (a significant portion at least) don't really want to be there in the first place. Second, their audience is skeptical by nature and is constantly assessing the instructors' credibility (whether you think they are or not). Third, Murphy's law, that no matter how good you are and/or how much you practice - things don't always go as planned - and muffing your schtick is the quickest way to lose the class' confidence. I agree somewhat with this theory, but I believe there are times where it doesn't/shouldn't apply.

Tactical theory must be tested before being taught.

-If not by you, by some other trusted source. I have some half-way decent experience in the LE SWAT world and I used to plan/set up most of our training and missions. Occasionally, I would visualize (or steal) a different way of dealing with a specific situation, movement or technique. I'd introduce it to the team, we'd practice, and ultimately - we'd test it out during an applicable mission. Some times it worked ("IP, you're a genius!). Other times not so much ("IP, WTF just happened?"). My point is that you might think an idea in your head is the best thing since buttered toast, but during field test it didn't quite look so hot. I couldn't imagine instructing others on un-tested ideas related to tactical theory.


3/21/13 1:40 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?


+1.
3/21/13 1:51 PM
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sreiter
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Lord Nitemare - 

SEALs shoot handguns too bro


How much? I didnt say they never did, just to what level. i would image hand gunning isn't a high priority in training vs a lot of other things, because their missions wouldnt lend themselves using a handgun that often.

Again, coming from the SOF folks i know who cross trained with both, they say Delta spends much more time on hand guns then seals, and their experience has shown delta guys are much better shots with hand guns
3/21/13 2:00 PM
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MarsMan
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Edited: 03/21/13 2:01 PM
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paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?

 

IMO they are both pretty hard, but the "easier" one will depend a lot on the person's background.

 

Assuming quality training and dedication is provided, a person with incredible coordination may become a great competitive shooter or marksman, but may not be able to "function" that well in a gunfight, due to psychological characteristics, not being able to see and uderstand what's going on quickly enough, not being good at teamwork, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Another person may be limited in their shooting skills (to become, at best, a "decent" shooter), but have the attributes to make a great tactical shooter, like the ability to foresee threats, to quickly calculate the best route or tactics to use in a particular moment, and to perform well when cold, dehydrated, hungry, and without sleep (this is also important when differenciating "operators" from "athletes").

 

3/21/13 2:09 PM
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IP
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paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?


Easiest to hardest:

-Gun handling

-Marksmanship (because that's a pretty relative term, and things are more black and white)

-Tactical ability to gunfight
3/21/13 2:31 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Sounds about right.

If you're an awesome competition shooter that's used to standing in the IDPA box and slaying targets, you're gonna be a lot worse off than an average shooter that understands angles, cover and shooting while moving off the X. Phone Post
3/21/13 2:53 PM
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MarsMan
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Relevant to the thread:

I was just leaving my favorite watering hole yesterday when I noticed this:

 

 
 
----------
Marketing gimmick or not, I thought it was an awesome idea...I will try it next time I go there.
 
Looks perfect to celebrate those things that never happened...
3/21/13 3:08 PM
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IP
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Tactical theory - Rules/principles before technique

-Rules/principles are constant, set guidelines that rarely change. Techniques are used to work within those rules/principles.

The easiest way to start down the wrong road (tactics wise) is to overlook rules/principles and focus and techniques. I can't tell you how many times we convoluted a training movement by violating this before stopping, catching ourselves, and then looking at techniques/methods through a rules/principles filter. KISS (not the band) applies to this somewhat as well.

I should write fortune cookie notes...
3/21/13 3:24 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Jedburgh1 -  Sounds about right.

If you're an awesome competition shooter that's used to standing in the IDPA box and slaying targets, you're gonna be a lot worse off than an average shooter that understands angles, cover and shooting while moving off the X. Phone Post

I have no doubt that is true. What boils my blood is when I get told that by people with no tactical background who use it as an excuse to not learn how to shoot better. Fuck.
3/21/13 3:27 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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IP - 
paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?


Easiest to hardest:

-Gun handling

-Marksmanship (because that's a pretty relative term, and things are more black and white)

-Tactical ability to gunfight

THIS!

gunhandling is easy enough to learn and teach, and if learned from a competent source......sound.

marksmanship is more difficult, and can be discipline based, but if a sound foundation is acquired, most skills are transferable to other disciplines to at least a competent level.

Tactical.....the fundamental mechanical aspects can be learned and passed on, so if that is what a person w/o the direct experience is teaching I see no problem....provided it comes from sound sources. Take for example the use of flashlights, pieing, use of cover, movement, etc.

This element of the 3 take much more mental on-the-fly ability combining the two previously mentioned....IMHO

Some variables seem to me based upon doctrine and environmental factors such mil-team/solo-officer/US defensive-citizen/S.Africa defensive citizen. For example, way back in the 90s I was training with a former ranger, when asked how to clear a building his reply was how they did it in Panama (IIRC), which consisted of tell them to come out.....if they didn't, open fire to keep their heads down and shift fire to allow approach of team(s).....grenades in windows/doors....kick in doors.....rinse&repeat as needed inside. Obviously, not worthwhile training for LE and citizens, unless you're James Yeager. ;p


JMHO based upon training with/by skilled people with/without direct/combat experience.
3/21/13 3:34 PM
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Lord Nitemare
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Edited: 03/21/13 5:06 PM
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sreiter - 
Lord Nitemare - 

SEALs shoot handguns too bro


How much? I didnt say they never did, just to what level. i would image hand gunning isn't a high priority in training vs a lot of other things, because their missions wouldnt lend themselves using a handgun that often.

Again, coming from the SOF folks i know who cross trained with both, they say Delta spends much more time on hand guns then seals, and their experience has shown delta guys are much better shots with hand guns

 

I hate to be such a nerd wannabe (and I'm sorry Jed) but there is a separation in SOF as a whole. When we talk about white SOF, we're talking about SEALs and, Jedburgh's organization, Special Forces. When we refer to Black SOF, we're talking about the two national special missions units - Delta and SEAL Team 6. Now, you have to take into consideration that all SOF operators are ridiculously talented - it just so happens that the guys at those two aforementioned commands tend to have more training and they have a lot more funding, in other words, they receive more pistol/rifle training (and all that cool guy shit). So technically speaking, yes, a Delta operator does have more training with a handgun than say a SEAL team 1 operator (whos an amazing shot to begin with) but you would say a ST6 operator has as much training as the Delta operator.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that a white SOF guy can't be as badass of a shooter because that's just not true. It's evident with a number of people (Travis Haley, for example). Although, if I did have to point out a stark difference between Army SF/Delta and SEALs it would probably have to be their ability to teach. Army SF and Delta guys pretty much dominate the market (there are exceptions, the vast majority are either SF or Delta). It's only common sense being that not only are they fucking amazing shots - but they're capable of teaching others (significantly better than say a SEAL, or a Ranger). It's one of their main mission capabilities, and they do it better than anyone else...provided Jed does get out, and he does start his own shooting school - the guy will flourish. Again, not only is he an amazing shot (given his background) who has spent a large majority of his time shooting bad guys in the face but more importantly he has taught others to shoot bad guys in the face... that's what separates an Army SF/Delta guy from a SEAL. Again, there are exceptions but SF guys pretty much instruct the day they enter the team room. They're pretty much groomed for that job.

3/21/13 3:39 PM
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pumpkinpuss
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Lord Nitemare - 
Gforce - 
Jedburgh1 -  Googling Suarez sent me down the rabbit hole of corrupt instructors.

They keep our contract courses very well vetted these days, had no idea the shooting class industry was so bereft of integrity out there.

I always thought George, the blog guy at Madogre was a clown, turns out he's affiliated with Yeager too. Where do these morons spring up from Phone Post

Most of them come from being KICKED OUT of military/LE in some form or another. Yeager got fired from 2 PDs (as I said before, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, as the employment practices are pretty shady in his area).

Suarez, however, deserves no benefit of the doubt. He got thrown off the force for defrauding workers comp. Turns out that Gabe was teaching classes left and right while out on paid disability for a line of duty injury. Dude did some serious cell time, but his plea allowed him to avoid eating a felony, which preserves his right to own firearms.

Speaking of affiliations with Yeager, add the forum's own Frogman 211 to the list. He graduate BUD/S, but got the BOOT from Naval Special Warfare before earning his trident (there is a probation--I think that it's 6 months--before the trident and SEAL status are awarded). He got the BOOT from the forum for threatening the family of another forum member here.

The level of commonality for all of these guys is amazing.

1. Exact opposite of the "silent professional." Constant braggadocio, black dealer of death, etc.
2. Speaking of attention, as we mentioned before, they can't generate positive press, so they figure that negative attention is better than none at all.
3. Received the motherfucking BOOT for whatever public service organization that they claim as their crown jewel credential.
4. They have fans that worship them as demi-god like figures. Both guys have their own online forums where anything but the company line dogma posted by their apparatchiks is deleted.

This is why I have said all along that there is room for you in this industry, assuming that it is not destroyed by gun bans.

Things are much different now, after BUD/s, guys are shipped off to Jump school and immediately after that SQT (which is like 6 1/2 months long). It used to be that 6 months after you graduate from BUD/s you would then begin STT - being that he never even got to STT, he has maybe 7 weeks of actual shooting experience (in BUD/s). In other words, the guy has no experience whatsoever. 

Yeager talks about his time in Iraq as a contractor, but didn't he completely bitch out during an ambush?


Re Yeager:
from what i heard he shot himself in the foot with his sidearm still holstered

looking at his masculine physique, i am more inclined to believe it was not a pistol, but a Twinkie.
(in his defense though, it was probably a combat twinkie, not a civilian model. More filling in the pipe, and a more tactically spongy exterior)
3/21/13 5:57 PM
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Jedburgh1
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OTC has 2 weeks of pistol dry fire before they ever fire a single round. Phone Post
3/21/13 7:54 PM
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Jedburgh1
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TheHouse -  I always wondered how someone who hasn't had the military experience would get into the field of specialized trainer. I mean what if "joe" had never been in the military, but had the right mindset or the right technical/tactical prowess for training people. Just because someone hasn't experienced a firefight, does that mean they don't have the competency of developing strategies or training methods to do well in that situation? Phone Post

I had more time to think about this on the drive home.

Let me phrase it this way. What if "Joe" has never been in a professional car race. But he's read a lot of books, and he took a driver's ed class. He has a way he thinks a professional car race might go, but he doesn't know. He understands the mechanics of racing, and automotive physics, but he's never raced. He's seen a lot of races on TV though. So he offers racing classes on a track he built in his back yard.

And say you wanted to learn how to race cars.

Would you go to Joe's School? Or would you go to the goddamn Richard Petty School?
3/21/13 9:41 PM
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IP
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Like a rapper who didn't live in the 'hood. No street cred, homey.

You have to be careful, though, that you don't cannibalize everyone up the chain based on their experience (or perceived lack thereof). Eventually, no one makes the grade.
3/21/13 10:01 PM
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Jedburgh1
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What the next step is, depends on where you're starting from Phone Post
3/21/13 10:42 PM
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_33
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Please, do not mock what I am about to type here.


Anyway, I have hours and hours of paintball pistol fighting in this exact environment. Now I know it's not the real thing, but not only was it fun as shit it seemed to really help me with me reloading and I learned to shoot left handed as well as I could with my right hand. I used a mag fed pistol, the Tiberius 8, and always felt that there had to be some gain from it.


Would you guys agree that someone like myself could benefit from practicing like this?


For what it's worth we would often run with and against real Police and Military guys. In fact, I gave a few guys from the same unit a three hour tech session on the pistols we were using and threw them a master tech kit to keep them up and running. I was/am a certified TA tech.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMB94RiqsP0
3/21/13 10:58 PM
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sreiter
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IP - 
paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?


Easiest to hardest:

-Gun handling

-Marksmanship (because that's a pretty relative term, and things are more black and white)

-Tactical ability to gunfight

funny,

i could make the case for gun handling to be the hardest.

I wasn't allowed to fire a shot for a two weeks(maybe more), until I got my presentation to a acceptable level.

My main two instructors (one a reserve LT., on a marine sgt maj) both felt presentation was the foundation of gun fighting, so unless you had the 5 elements of the presentation down, nothing else mattered. You had to be able to got from holstered, to firing on target extremely smooth. BTW - I was specifically told i was being taught to gun fight, not shoot.

Obviously, grip, sight picture aquisition, trigger control is all part of the presentation. All gun handling skills.

Marksmanship i dont believe even enters the equation. Once your taught how to aim (part of presentation), everyone will generally get hits. How you re-aquire the target, and how you precieve minute difference will determine how good you are... two guys with equal training and weapons wont be equally precise on target.

Tactical ability - Thats a hard one to quantify as to "is it hard then gun handling" IMO...

Let me start off by saying, obviously the tactical training i had is no where close to JED's, let alone probably any DA team.... I wasn't in a 6 man stack... i had to leave training before moving into the kill house phase....

But, using what training i did have. It seems to me, learning the tactics were like a football play. How to shoot and move. Shoot from cover correctly. When to change mags and how. Obviously, getting those down to perfection, like a pro football team running a play, takes 100's, if not 1000's of hours to do right....but the same can be said for presentation.

For example, my above instructors used to compete at gran master level in IDPA, ect.

When they were getting ready for a competition, they didnt practice running a course, they spent days practicing their presentation.

Col Cooper said winning a gunfight requires speed, power, accuracy... he didnt put tactics in his formula....

on the other had, I see better tactics giving you a great advantage in combat...

interesting to think about 9for me anyway)
3/21/13 11:00 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Sweet house. Would love to get some trigger time with you guys there.

Force on force is always always informative however; if you approach it the wrong way you will create training scars and bad habits that may set you up for failure later on.

As I've said before (numerous times I believe). CQB is very very dangerous. Even more so from an amateur stand point.

Training time is valuable, don't squander it on bad habits.
3/21/13 11:05 PM
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edit...


...spend time running a course, figuring out the exact perfect spot to take each shot, which foot they should land on to allow them to pivot better to engage the next target, ect.

all examples of tactics

(although, a third instructor i had, the best shot of the 3, did teach me to run strange way, that he said was the fast/best for shooting on the move, which he used in competition...he also had his way do doing a few other things he found were better/faster)

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