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3/21/13 10:42 PM
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_33
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Please, do not mock what I am about to type here.


Anyway, I have hours and hours of paintball pistol fighting in this exact environment. Now I know it's not the real thing, but not only was it fun as shit it seemed to really help me with me reloading and I learned to shoot left handed as well as I could with my right hand. I used a mag fed pistol, the Tiberius 8, and always felt that there had to be some gain from it.


Would you guys agree that someone like myself could benefit from practicing like this?


For what it's worth we would often run with and against real Police and Military guys. In fact, I gave a few guys from the same unit a three hour tech session on the pistols we were using and threw them a master tech kit to keep them up and running. I was/am a certified TA tech.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMB94RiqsP0
3/21/13 10:58 PM
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sreiter
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IP - 
paw - 

*n00b raises hand*

What is easier to learn, technical ability of gun handling/marksmanship or the tactical ability to gunfight?


Easiest to hardest:

-Gun handling

-Marksmanship (because that's a pretty relative term, and things are more black and white)

-Tactical ability to gunfight

funny,

i could make the case for gun handling to be the hardest.

I wasn't allowed to fire a shot for a two weeks(maybe more), until I got my presentation to a acceptable level.

My main two instructors (one a reserve LT., on a marine sgt maj) both felt presentation was the foundation of gun fighting, so unless you had the 5 elements of the presentation down, nothing else mattered. You had to be able to got from holstered, to firing on target extremely smooth. BTW - I was specifically told i was being taught to gun fight, not shoot.

Obviously, grip, sight picture aquisition, trigger control is all part of the presentation. All gun handling skills.

Marksmanship i dont believe even enters the equation. Once your taught how to aim (part of presentation), everyone will generally get hits. How you re-aquire the target, and how you precieve minute difference will determine how good you are... two guys with equal training and weapons wont be equally precise on target.

Tactical ability - Thats a hard one to quantify as to "is it hard then gun handling" IMO...

Let me start off by saying, obviously the tactical training i had is no where close to JED's, let alone probably any DA team.... I wasn't in a 6 man stack... i had to leave training before moving into the kill house phase....

But, using what training i did have. It seems to me, learning the tactics were like a football play. How to shoot and move. Shoot from cover correctly. When to change mags and how. Obviously, getting those down to perfection, like a pro football team running a play, takes 100's, if not 1000's of hours to do right....but the same can be said for presentation.

For example, my above instructors used to compete at gran master level in IDPA, ect.

When they were getting ready for a competition, they didnt practice running a course, they spent days practicing their presentation.

Col Cooper said winning a gunfight requires speed, power, accuracy... he didnt put tactics in his formula....

on the other had, I see better tactics giving you a great advantage in combat...

interesting to think about 9for me anyway)
3/21/13 11:00 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Sweet house. Would love to get some trigger time with you guys there.

Force on force is always always informative however; if you approach it the wrong way you will create training scars and bad habits that may set you up for failure later on.

As I've said before (numerous times I believe). CQB is very very dangerous. Even more so from an amateur stand point.

Training time is valuable, don't squander it on bad habits.
3/21/13 11:05 PM
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edit...


...spend time running a course, figuring out the exact perfect spot to take each shot, which foot they should land on to allow them to pivot better to engage the next target, ect.

all examples of tactics

(although, a third instructor i had, the best shot of the 3, did teach me to run strange way, that he said was the fast/best for shooting on the move, which he used in competition...he also had his way do doing a few other things he found were better/faster)
3/21/13 11:06 PM
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Jedburgh1
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^^I would say that to lump all guns together into gunhandling is a misnomer.

Fighting with shotguns and carbines is the easiest. Long-range shooting is next (the fundamentals...not the formulas), then pistolcraft as the hardest.

I think marksmanship is the base level. Maybe IP was using gunhandling to describe weapons manipulation? I won't presume to speak for him.
3/21/13 11:11 PM
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_33

is that our swat house?

Fucking bad ass.

Did you ever think about moving up to semunition?

Forum member Jack_burtons dad is one of their main instructors..did some video's for them... good money in training cops force on force with it.

IIRC forum member dimitrus barbari is also a semunition instructor
3/21/13 11:13 PM
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Jedburgh1 - ^^I would say that to lump all guns together into gunhandling is a misnomer.

Fighting with shotguns and carbines is the easiest. Long-range shooting is next (the fundamentals...not the formulas), then pistolcraft as the hardest.

I think marksmanship is the base level. Maybe IP was using gunhandling to describe weapons manipulation? I won't presume to speak for him.

point well taken....i was focused on pistol..cause of the delta v seals things

you're 100% right

only thing tough in shotgunning is getting reloads smooth..
3/21/13 11:14 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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"funny,

i could make the case for gun handling to be the hardest."

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. But then if you will permit me my own deep thoughts on a subject I know very little about (in other words, I'm talking out of my ass).

The aspect that will seem the hardest is that that is the most important to you.

In my sport, the accuracy requirements are pretty tame. You have to be able to hit an 8" steel plate at 50 yards, but that's as tough as it gets. The rest comes down to gunhandling, especially if you consider high speed marksmanship to be a large portion gunhandling. A missed reload will cost you massive points. Likewise not knowing how to transition quickly.

In Jed's world, he probably (hopefully) would never have to take a pistol shot at 50 yards, but good lord, the tactics portion won't just cost him points, but his life and those of his friends. In his world, that is definitely the most important, most nuanced, easiest to fuck up part.

And of course there are bullseye shooters who can't gunhandle for shit, and who don't know anything about tactics (like me!), but they would certainly say that the marksmanship aspect is the most difficult.

The aspect that you spend the most time perfecting is that which is most important to your goal, and that is the one you are most likely to believe is the most difficult.
3/21/13 11:15 PM
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_33
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sreiter - _33

is that our swat house?

Fucking bad ass.

Did you ever think about moving up to semunition?

Forum member Jack_burtons dad is one of their main instructors..did some video's for them... good money in training cops force on force with it.

IIRC forum member dimitrus barbari is also a semunition instructor
That is the SWAT house at USANA in Elmer NJ. Awesome facility and amazing people over there. Phone Post
3/21/13 11:18 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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"For example, my above instructors used to compete at gran master level in IDPA, ect.

When they were getting ready for a competition, they didnt practice running a course, they spent days practicing their presentation."

First, there is no such thing as an IDPA grand master. they have "distinguished masters" these days, but I strongly doubt you know any of them. There's only about a dozen, and none are old timers.

Second, assuming you meant USPSA or IPSC, which Col. Cooper founded, I pray to God my competition spends days and days on their draw before my next event, because I will crush them. Vogel, Sevigny, Stoeger, Michel, Grauffel, etc - the top of the heap these days - they practice stages when they live fire. (though even if Vogel and Stoeger et al spend days on their draws they will still fucking crush me because they are just much better shooters. And Grauffel will crush them...)
3/21/13 11:19 PM
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Gforce
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Yeager did not shoot himself, but at least one (possibly two) of his students have shot themselves in their classes--I'm pretty sure that one was a holster/unholster.

w/ regard to Pincus, I agree w/ Rhymenoceros. He can't be taken seriously based on the grappling/headlock escape video he did last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMB94RiqsP0

He's basically asking someone to bulldog his face into the concrete.

I think that when asked w/ regard to credentials, he basically admitted that he did a weekend seminar in Torrance.

Plus, he's affiliated w/ Yeager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxvOjO7XjMU
3/21/13 11:21 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Jedburgh1 - ^^I would say that to lump all guns together into gunhandling is a misnomer.

Fighting with shotguns and carbines is the easiest. Long-range shooting is next (the fundamentals...not the formulas), then pistolcraft as the hardest.

I think marksmanship is the base level. Maybe IP was using gunhandling to describe weapons manipulation? I won't presume to speak for him.

Yeah, good point. Shooting a shotgun is a fuckload easier than reloading the damn thing.
3/21/13 11:24 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Gforce - Yeager did not shoot himself, but at least one (possibly two) of his students have shot themselves in their classes--I'm pretty sure that one was a holster/unholster.

w/ regard to Pincus, I agree w/ Rhymenoceros. He can't be taken seriously based on the grappling/headlock escape video he did last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMB94RiqsP0

He's basically asking someone to bulldog his face into the concrete.

I think that when asked w/ regard to credentials, he basically admitted that he did a weekend seminar in Torrance.

Plus, he's affiliated w/ Yeager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxvOjO7XjMU

Damnit. I had forgotten about his headlock "escape."

It's the kind of thing that would make anyone with two stripes on their white belt puke.

But yet he made a video, and he will defend to his death that that's how Royce showed him to do it. The problem is, with BJJ you can show him how he's wrong. With his shooting nonsense, to show him how he's wrong would involve going to jail for murdering his retarded ass.
3/21/13 11:25 PM
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^ i'm sure jack_burton can set something up for you to shoot against his dad, and Steve Hendricks, or, you could head over to gunsite, and challenge them, or, worst case, I can set it up if you want.

yeah ipsc..had a brian fart
3/21/13 11:30 PM
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btw-in case you didnt knwo jacks dad, steve, mike hughes(another of my instructors), and one other team mate i never met, won the whittington center/sof challenge a number of times
3/21/13 11:30 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post
3/21/13 11:32 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Gforce - I think the link you used for the Pincus headlock escape was a copy / paste error.

This should be it: http://youtu.be/7X6IDbtnNNI

Sreiter, please watch this and tell me if you accidentally vomit in your shoes.
3/21/13 11:35 PM
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Gforce
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Edited: 03/21/13 11:42 PM
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My error on the link paste from the Pincus headlock escape.

I posted the SWAT house instead--to say that the motherfucker needs some Roundup.

The landscapers are doing a substandard job. Someone send the junior man to Home Depot!
3/21/13 11:53 PM
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Rhymenoceros - Gforce - I think the link you used for the Pincus headlock escape was a copy / paste error.

This should be it: http://youtu.be/7X6IDbtnNNI

Sreiter, please watch this and tell me if you accidentally vomit in your shoes.

other then doing a few things [imo] totally wrong, he had most of the gracie self defense techs in there(yeah, i know)

but you could use the same techs to counter kesa gatame (although i'm a bjj brown belt under Rigan Machado), i would use silat techniques first if someone was even stupid enough to headlock me...does anyone outside of grade school actually headlock anyone?)

stepping in front to trip him, while smashing your face into the concert seems "counter productive" - lol

if we had to take them down, it would be to the rear, not front. We'd step over them, and we'd grab our wrist thats across his face/neck and push on it for extra leverage...

so he was close...just no cigar... maybe he saw a gracie self defense video and tought he'd modify it so it didnt look like he ripped it off...

Funny thing, with SO MUCH bjj around, why in the world would you ever think you could get away with teaching bullshit grappling techs.... if this was 1990. maybe
3/21/13 11:53 PM
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IP
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Jedburgh1 - ^^I would say that to lump all guns together into gunhandling is a misnomer.

Fighting with shotguns and carbines is the easiest. Long-range shooting is next (the fundamentals...not the formulas), then pistolcraft as the hardest.

I think marksmanship is the base level. Maybe IP was using gunhandling to describe weapons manipulation? I won't presume to speak for him.

Gun handling = weapons manipulation.

The 3 most important areas my team focused on with ongoing training were:
-Weapons proficiency (manipulation/accuracy)
-Tactical movement
-Decision making (high liability area)

We treated those areas like the guy spinning plates on sticks - you have to stay busy keeping them all spinning or a plate is going to fall and break. Additionally, we worked to keep things/systems as simple as possible. The last thing you want to do is fall apart, both individually and as a team, when the SHTF.

Fundamentals fundamentals, fundamentals - repetition, repetition, repetition.

One thing I found over the years is that attending a lot of outside training by different experts (shooting, tactics, etc) is great when you keep it in perspective, but if you let it run you, you'll lose your focus/core fundamentals/foundation - and that becomes counter productive. I referred to this in an earlier post - specific techniques can vary under an umbrella of tactical rules/principles. Step out from that umbrella and it's easy to lose focus and get yourself discombobulated.

Live-fire shoot houses, IMO, are not as valuable anymore with the advent of Airsoft and Simunition weapons. You can get the same, if not better, benefits using fake guns and without the risk of injury. Additionally, you can use Airsoft anywhere and WITH furniture. You guys that have used both wearing all your gear know what I'm talking about.

I could go on, as this was a big deal to me for a lot of years.


3/21/13 11:59 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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"gunhandling" to me is mechanical aspects and easiet to learn/teach imho. developing good, efficient gunhandling allows for concentration on executing the shot and recoil management in the "marksmanship" phase of skill development......the shooter isnt distracted by unfamiliarity of handling tbeir weapon and so can better focus on shooting.Tactical" involves the application of the two previous elementswhile trying to fight, move, etc.

differe t people use terms, etc differently depending upon the particular system/method they are a product of, but it all comes down to physical manipulation, shooting fundamentals/marksmanship and tactics.
3/22/13 12:00 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - 
Rhymenoceros - Gforce - I think the link you used for the Pincus headlock escape was a copy / paste error.

This should be it: http://youtu.be/7X6IDbtnNNI

Sreiter, please watch this and tell me if you accidentally vomit in your shoes.

other then doing a few things [imo] totally wrong, he had most of the gracie self defense techs in there(yeah, i know)

but you could use the same techs to counter kesa gatame (although i'm a bjj brown belt under Rigan Machado), i would use silat techniques first if someone was even stupid enough to headlock me...does anyone outside of grade school actually headlock anyone?)

stepping in front to trip him, while smashing your face into the concert seems "counter productive" - lol

if we had to take them down, it would be to the rear, not front. We'd step over them, and we'd grab our wrist thats across his face/neck and push on it for extra leverage...

so he was close...just no cigar... maybe he saw a gracie self defense video and tought he'd modify it so it didnt look like he ripped it off...

Funny thing, with SO MUCH bjj around, why in the world would you ever think you could get away with teaching bullshit grappling techs.... if this was 1990. maybe

He had the Gracie self defense techniques in there, but in the wrong order, and totally executed the wrong way. And the end result was that, as you said, he slammed his face into the concrete. Let's not forget the sweet eagle claw to the ribs which we all know would have been lethal.

This is a metaphor for all of this guy's stuff. He doesn't have a fucking clue, but that doesn't stop him from selling it.
3/22/13 12:00 AM
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"But yet he made a video, and he will defend to his death that that's how Royce showed him to do it"

lol - that MIGHT be the way Royce showed him... i think in the early days, they were teaching people wrong on purpose. Remember, it took 20 years for them to award their first BB in torrance. and only a few less for Royce, after he split.

that goes back to almost the beginning when Roles was teaching people right, and the family was pissed because "secrets were getting out" Rolles said, if you want to win, train harder, not by keeping techs secret
3/22/13 12:03 AM
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Rhymenoceros - 
sreiter - 
Rhymenoceros - Gforce - I think the link you used for the Pincus headlock escape was a copy / paste error.

This should be it: http://youtu.be/7X6IDbtnNNI

Sreiter, please watch this and tell me if you accidentally vomit in your shoes.

other then doing a few things [imo] totally wrong, he had most of the gracie self defense techs in there(yeah, i know)

but you could use the same techs to counter kesa gatame (although i'm a bjj brown belt under Rigan Machado), i would use silat techniques first if someone was even stupid enough to headlock me...does anyone outside of grade school actually headlock anyone?)

stepping in front to trip him, while smashing your face into the concert seems "counter productive" - lol

if we had to take them down, it would be to the rear, not front. We'd step over them, and we'd grab our wrist thats across his face/neck and push on it for extra leverage...

so he was close...just no cigar... maybe he saw a gracie self defense video and tought he'd modify it so it didnt look like he ripped it off...

Funny thing, with SO MUCH bjj around, why in the world would you ever think you could get away with teaching bullshit grappling techs.... if this was 1990. maybe

He had the Gracie self defense techniques in there, but in the wrong order, and totally executed the wrong way. And the end result was that, as you said, he slammed his face into the concrete. Let's not forget the sweet eagle claw to the ribs which we all know would have been lethal.

This is a metaphor for all of this guy's stuff. He doesn't have a fucking clue, but that doesn't stop him from selling it.

lol, yeah, i wasnt even going to get into how he's not trapping the arm after broke free...setting himself up for a rear elbow to the face,,,,
3/22/13 12:04 AM
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He doesn't have a fucking clue, but that doesn't stop him from selling it.


PT Barnum summed it up

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