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OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


3/22/13 1:12 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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sreiter - 
Sgt. Slaphead - "gunhandling" to me is mechanical aspects and easiet to learn/teach imho. developing good, efficient gunhandling allows for concentration on executing the shot and recoil management in the "marksmanship" phase of skill development......the shooter isnt distracted by unfamiliarity of handling tbeir weapon and so can better focus on shooting.Tactical" involves the application of the two previous elementswhile trying to fight, move, etc.

differe t people use terms, etc differently depending upon the particular system/method they are a product of, but it all comes down to physical manipulation, shooting fundamentals/marksmanship and tactics.

yeah, i guess we're just using the term different, which is cool

to me, doing a el pres is MORE about gun handling, and it seems to you, it would fall under tactics

forgive me but im on my phone at a hotel with family so writing a bunch and bouncing back&forth between posts is a PIA.

Its been near 20 years since i did ipsc....el pres is hands up, draw shoot center and head x3 with reload??? tto me that is a shooting drill incorporating gunhandling and markmanship....designed to hone both. using bjj or mma as examples, it sort of a pozitional/technique drill. Id say it is an intermediate level skill development, basic physical manipilation of load/unload, malfunction, drawstroke, etc are gunhandljng.....and marksmansbip fundamentals are beginner level skill.


tactical training is accomplishing an objective/problem solving using your tools.... like say a handgun and flashlight, pieing and using cover to clear a room...or training fireteam tactics, etc.

3/22/13 2:02 AM
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sreiter
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oh, ok....because by your post, you were specific about not having anything distract you... and i would think hands up, sinning, firing on multiple targets, reloading, firing on multiple targets would be a distraction, and would simulate a problem solving exercise, namely you have surrendered, and you're going to try to fight your way out against 5 people

it seemed like gun handling to you was something extremely static.

by your clarification, to me, gun handling is still the more difficult....but, that could be personal attribute based as well.. maybe someone would catch on fast being shown tactics, but it took them a long time to get handling down...

its all good
3/22/13 2:03 AM
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sreiter
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spinning, not sinning...you start facing away from targets
3/22/13 7:58 AM
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Jedburgh1
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effinggoof - 
Jedburgh1 - Sweet house. Would love to get some trigger time with you guys there.

Force on force is always always informative however; if you approach it the wrong way you will create training scars and bad habits that may set you up for failure later on.

As I've said before (numerous times I believe). CQB is very very dangerous. Even more so from an amateur stand point.

Training time is valuable, don't squander it on bad habits.



With regards to Simmunition training, could you elaborate on what you feel is the best way to get the most out of it.

Could you expand on the idea that there are common mistakes that people make that rob people/agencies/teams of the value of Sim training?

Use it to complement live-fire at a 60-40% ratio. (Sorry IP). It's unnerving to go live in a shoot house which is why its important to do it often enough to stay current. Our CQB game is fast and fluid, and with live fire, guys slow down to the point where it becomes dangerous to the whole team in choke points etc.

One of the biggest mistakes is guys get into a paintball mentality, to avoid getting hit. Hell yes sims hurt. DOn't let that affect your training. If you pop your head out, and shoot, and then duck behind cover, a more aggressive-minded shooter is going to destroy you. We don't give up ground in CQB unless it becomes tactically necessary (I realize that's a silly ass statement..) By tactically necessary I mean we've reached a sticking point, by which time we will back off and reduce the room, house etc through explosives or terminal guidance operations.
3/22/13 1:58 PM
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Jedburgh1
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What everybody want to get feisty when Jed's asleep, nobody wants to discuss when he's around.  

 

3/22/13 2:46 PM
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awilson82
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^^^LOL

My take on the whole technique vs tactical thing is shooting is alot like boxing.

You can learn to throw great jabs and hooks and learn good footwork (ie technique) and you can spar (force on force training, competing, etc) but until you get in the ring and get hit and hit back and employ all that technique in a real situation then you dont really know what works and what doesnt. Which is why for tactical training you want a pro like Jed or Mars or any of our other resident OG badasses who has been in the ring and can tell you what works and what will get you laid out.

However that doesnt mean there arent great civilian shooting trainers that can teach you alot or that any former military guy needs to be ex-Delta or something.

Also like boxing, shooting is a degrading skill (ie use it or lose it) so even through this ammo crisis keep shooting enough to keep your skills up :)

3/22/13 3:28 PM
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IP
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"Sorry IP" - Haha, no problem and I get what you're saying about the benefits of conducting tactical movement with live fire. Here's my reasoning related to what I said about live-fire houses and Airsoft/Sims training. Take it for what it's worth.

Every SWAT cop gets introduced to 2 things in Basic SWAT school (mine was beautiful Fort Ord in Monterey put on by the FBI) that they will rarely, if ever, use later: live-fire house and rappelling. Back in the day, live-fire houses consisted of tires, large timbers and sand - and they were few and far between. Today, they're made of composite materials, with catwalks and moveable walls, some even multi story - and they are STILL few and far between. In my 17 SWAT years I'll bet I used them around 5 or 6 times - 3 during competitions and once using Airsoft during a small team tactics class. The other 2 times we just got lucky.

My point is they're not readily available to the average SWAT team so you adapt. You create mock-ups at your range that simulate a portion of a live-fire house. You create drills to shoot and move closely with one another to mirror the benefits of a live-fire house. Finally, you find alternatives that take the benefits of a live-fire house and combine them with role-players (suspects, victims and witnesses/extras) and legitimate scenarios you might face down the road to test guys' weapons proficiency (manipulation/marksmanship), tactical movement and decision making. Airsoft/Sims is a great way to do this. Again, it doesn't replace shooting real guns but instead combines pretty much everything in one big test that you can't safely perform in a live-fire house.

We had access to a large vacant office building where we could bang, shotgun breach, gas, use role players, almost anything but shoot live ammo. We'd also acquired homes under construction that had everything except texture and carpeting - so we used bangs and Airsoft. Hell, we got a hold of City office buildings at night and used Airsoft (I caught some heat for that). Options are out there if you look.

Note about Airsoft/Sims training: I completely agree with Jed that there is a fine line between good scenario based training and "chase the flag" paintball mentality. When I say force on force I'm not talking about 4 guys against 4 guys in a free-for-all. Everything we did was related to real-life situations we either faced or expected to face. You'd be surprised how much, if set up correctly, you can "get into" a scenario.

3/22/13 4:01 PM
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Jedburgh1
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I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.
3/22/13 4:01 PM
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Lurken
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Jedburgh1 -  Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post



And like most threads, it will go to shit when sreiter shows up.

Standby for massive shittalking about how Jackburtons Da Da is the bestest in the world.
3/22/13 4:06 PM
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IP
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Jedburgh1 - I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.

The other thing about shot houses I've been expose to: They were all sub-sonic round capable only. No rifles. That was kind of a drag, especially as of late we transitioned over from subguns to carbines.

LAPD SWAT TL (retired) friend of mine said he never used rappelling during a real event.
3/22/13 4:22 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Lurken -
Jedburgh1 -  Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post



And like most threads, it will go to shit when sreiter shows up.

Standby for massive shittalking about how Jackburtons Da Da is the bestest in the world.
And yet your two posts here have been about him. Phone Post
3/22/13 4:24 PM
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Lord Nitemare
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3/22/13 4:35 PM
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tyronehernandez
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Who is this "jack burton's dad"?

I've heard him mentioned for years. Is he someone I've heard of?
3/22/13 4:40 PM
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Jedburgh1
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He is a very accomplished shooter and special operations veteran Phone Post
3/22/13 4:40 PM
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MountainMedic
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Jedburgh1 -

What everybody want to get feisty when Jed's asleep, nobody wants to discuss when he's around.  

 

Lol Phone Post
3/22/13 4:43 PM
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tyronehernandez
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"He is a very accomplished shooter and special operations veteran"

Is he a well known instructor? If he is I've probably heard of him and his name is out there already, so.......who is he? Just curious.

If he's not then I understand not wanting to say.
3/22/13 4:53 PM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Jedburgh1 - I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.
I only know of 2-3 shoot houses anywhere nearby. It does suck because when I've gotten the chance to train in them it was great. Phone Post
3/22/13 4:53 PM
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Jedburgh1
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He taught at gunsite but its not my lane to put his name out there Phone Post
3/22/13 4:59 PM
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tyronehernandez
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Wink if its Ken Hackathorn....

On a side note I just found out that Bob Munden died. RIP.
3/22/13 5:56 PM
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sreiter
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tyronehernandez - Wink if its Ken Hackathorn....

On a side note I just found out that Bob Munden died. RIP.

no

His name is out there on a number of articles if you google it.

He was also a LEO, undercover for a 3 letter gov agency, Col Coopers right hand man for a while (in charge of new bus. development) and teaches a few gov agencies , like dept of interior, high profile EP service (Bill Gates)... also a professional big game hunter ... world commander, defender or the universe (inside joke)

Its weird..i mentioned his name a few times... he doesnt have a problem with it, but it might lead to jack (hes mentioned his name a few times to ) and personal info about forum members is verbotin

Its really for jack to say or not say
3/22/13 5:59 PM
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sreiter
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Lurken - 
Jedburgh1 -  Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post



And like most threads, it will go to shit when sreiter shows up.

Standby for massive shittalking about how Jackburtons Da Da is the bestest in the world.

i've been here for 51 pages. You;re the only shit talker here,


Lets here about how your self taught, hillbilly sniper friend and you will hit 3 inch targets at 2500m all day long
3/22/13 6:03 PM
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sreiter
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IP - 
Jedburgh1 - I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.

The other thing about shot houses I've been expose to: They were all sub-sonic round capable only. No rifles. That was kind of a drag, especially as of late we transitioned over from subguns to carbines.

LAPD SWAT TL (retired) friend of mine said he never used rappelling during a real event.

but if he ever gets a gig as adviser/stunt man on a movie, it'll come in handy..
3/22/13 6:07 PM
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IP
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Sounds to me like there are quite a few civilian firearms enthusiasts with solid expertise in shooting. Have you guys ever thought about getting together privately and doing a round-robin type instruction/presentation to each other? I have to believe you'd pick up some good stuff, and at the same time save money by not paying for a big name. Obviously you guys are interested in improving your game. This might be a good option.?.
3/22/13 6:25 PM
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sreiter
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speaking of tactics - i just came across a email Jacks dad sent me when i have a questions....LOL Jed, this was on "that thread"


Hey WCDU

I'm having a debated with a guy who claims he's SF (A-team/ 5th/green beret)

Here's the scenario:

You're part of a breach team. You're mag runs dry. If there's a threat (the room isn't cleared)
obviously, you go to your secondary.

But, if the room is clear, do you change out mags before making your way through the rest of house?

How about if your M4 has a malfunction, same scenario. If the room is clear, do you do your "SPORTS" to clear the M4, or proceed with secondary only?

Is there contingencies to change the order of the stack before entering the next room that would give you time to clear the M4 ?

What happens if your sidearm malfunctions, which do you clear first?

etc
thanks

SReiter

Steve,

There is no hard or definitive answer to your questions. Generaly speaking you want the best tool for the job at hand and the best tool is generaly a long gun. Also if you are part of a team, there are additional options. I would not transition to the handgun unless I was in the middle of a shootout and the threat was less than 25 yds. Other wise I will get my AR up and running. So, if I "ran dry" that means I was busy pressing the trigger, so something likely needs continued shooting. However, if I have cover and my partner is beside me also shooting, I am going to get my long gun back in operation. If not, well I have to finish the fight as best I can. I don't remember SPORTS in detail but I do remember that I didn't like it. Most stacks are short lived in that they quickly divide into 2 man teams. It is too difficult to to have many more in a single room. Keeping in mind that there are rooms and there are rooms. Some are small and some are huge. You have to plan accordingly.

If your primary is down and then your secondary goes down, well, then you have to evaluate the problem. One could simply be empty and the other in some form of a malfunction. The malfunction could be final or simply need clearing. Let us say for the purpose of argument that they are both empty. Fix the one in your hands. Then if the situation allows for it, reload the other one.

The rule of thumb is to get the best weapon back in service. Keep in mind it could be the pistol. If the quarters are so tight that the short gun is the better tool, stick with it until the situation changes. An example that comes to mind is once I had to transistion from a perfectly good AR to my pistol to clear the area outside a window. The AR would have advertised my position.

Many amatuers want hard and fast answers. They want to be told what to do. That is okay for rookies and frequently has to be appraoch with a doctrinaire attitude.

In real life tactics are so fluid as to have an infinite number of variables. In most cases the first thing that goes to shit is the plan. Think Kumite vice Kata.


3/22/13 6:34 PM
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Jedburgh1
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IP - Sounds to me like there are quite a few civilian firearms enthusiasts with solid expertise in shooting. Have you guys ever thought about getting together privately and doing a round-robin type instruction/presentation to each other? I have to believe you'd pick up some good stuff, and at the same time save money by not paying for a big name. Obviously you guys are interested in improving your game. This might be a good option.?.

OG Shooter's Improvement Conclave.

If we've got a little land to run and some steel targets, I'm in.

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