UnderGround Forums
 

OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


3/22/13 12:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
253 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14661
sreiter - "But yet he made a video, and he will defend to his death that that's how Royce showed him to do it"

lol - that MIGHT be the way Royce showed him... i think in the early days, they were teaching people wrong on purpose. Remember, it took 20 years for them to award their first BB in torrance. and only a few less for Royce, after he split.

that goes back to almost the beginning when Roles was teaching people right, and the family was pissed because "secrets were getting out" Rolles said, if you want to win, train harder, not by keeping techs secret

FYI, he learned this stuff several weeks before filming this video. So this was filmed after the famous "teaching the wrong techniques" stuff. And I think the "teaching the wrong techniques" thing was mainly about positional control, guard passes, etc, not the Gracie self defense stuff.

I think he went to a seminar, saw some stuff, and immediately filmed a video trying to recreate what he learned. But OBVIOUSLY from the way he moves his hips, etc he has no grappling background, and he fucks up almost everything.

Oh yeah, and he teaches grappling classes from time to time as well. If he wasn't primarily a pistol instructor someone would have dojo stormed his dumb ass long ago.
3/22/13 12:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26468
Sgt. Slaphead - "gunhandling" to me is mechanical aspects and easiet to learn/teach imho. developing good, efficient gunhandling allows for concentration on executing the shot and recoil management in the "marksmanship" phase of skill development......the shooter isnt distracted by unfamiliarity of handling tbeir weapon and so can better focus on shooting.Tactical" involves the application of the two previous elementswhile trying to fight, move, etc.

differe t people use terms, etc differently depending upon the particular system/method they are a product of, but it all comes down to physical manipulation, shooting fundamentals/marksmanship and tactics.

yeah, i guess we're just using the term different, which is cool

to me, doing a el pres is MORE about gun handling, and it seems to you, it would fall under tactics
3/22/13 12:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
253 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14662
Agreed. El Pres is a gunhandling drill.

The FAST drill popularized by Todd "Press Out" Green, or TPOG, was "famously" dubbed a gunhandling drill by Ben Stoeger who has the fastest recorded time on it.

TPOG was not happy, as he considered it a shooting drill.

But your relative ability to shoot and gun handle determines whether you think the drill is a shooting drill or a gunhandling drill. Anyone who can shoot can easily make all the shots in the FAST drill in the required time, but the challenge comes from drawing and reloading. Just like the El Pres. Hence, they are gunhandling drills.
3/22/13 12:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
effinggoof
68 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/18/03
Posts: 12080
Jedburgh1 - Sweet house. Would love to get some trigger time with you guys there.

Force on force is always always informative however; if you approach it the wrong way you will create training scars and bad habits that may set you up for failure later on.

As I've said before (numerous times I believe). CQB is very very dangerous. Even more so from an amateur stand point.

Training time is valuable, don't squander it on bad habits.



With regards to Simmunition training, could you elaborate on what you feel is the best way to get the most out of it.

Could you expand on the idea that there are common mistakes that people make that rob people/agencies/teams of the value of Sim training?
3/22/13 1:12 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sgt. Slaphead
97 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8824
sreiter - 
Sgt. Slaphead - "gunhandling" to me is mechanical aspects and easiet to learn/teach imho. developing good, efficient gunhandling allows for concentration on executing the shot and recoil management in the "marksmanship" phase of skill development......the shooter isnt distracted by unfamiliarity of handling tbeir weapon and so can better focus on shooting.Tactical" involves the application of the two previous elementswhile trying to fight, move, etc.

differe t people use terms, etc differently depending upon the particular system/method they are a product of, but it all comes down to physical manipulation, shooting fundamentals/marksmanship and tactics.

yeah, i guess we're just using the term different, which is cool

to me, doing a el pres is MORE about gun handling, and it seems to you, it would fall under tactics

forgive me but im on my phone at a hotel with family so writing a bunch and bouncing back&forth between posts is a PIA.

Its been near 20 years since i did ipsc....el pres is hands up, draw shoot center and head x3 with reload??? tto me that is a shooting drill incorporating gunhandling and markmanship....designed to hone both. using bjj or mma as examples, it sort of a pozitional/technique drill. Id say it is an intermediate level skill development, basic physical manipilation of load/unload, malfunction, drawstroke, etc are gunhandljng.....and marksmansbip fundamentals are beginner level skill.


tactical training is accomplishing an objective/problem solving using your tools.... like say a handgun and flashlight, pieing and using cover to clear a room...or training fireteam tactics, etc.

3/22/13 2:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26469
oh, ok....because by your post, you were specific about not having anything distract you... and i would think hands up, sinning, firing on multiple targets, reloading, firing on multiple targets would be a distraction, and would simulate a problem solving exercise, namely you have surrendered, and you're going to try to fight your way out against 5 people

it seemed like gun handling to you was something extremely static.

by your clarification, to me, gun handling is still the more difficult....but, that could be personal attribute based as well.. maybe someone would catch on fast being shown tactics, but it took them a long time to get handling down...

its all good
3/22/13 2:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26470
spinning, not sinning...you start facing away from targets
3/22/13 7:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2902
effinggoof - 
Jedburgh1 - Sweet house. Would love to get some trigger time with you guys there.

Force on force is always always informative however; if you approach it the wrong way you will create training scars and bad habits that may set you up for failure later on.

As I've said before (numerous times I believe). CQB is very very dangerous. Even more so from an amateur stand point.

Training time is valuable, don't squander it on bad habits.



With regards to Simmunition training, could you elaborate on what you feel is the best way to get the most out of it.

Could you expand on the idea that there are common mistakes that people make that rob people/agencies/teams of the value of Sim training?

Use it to complement live-fire at a 60-40% ratio. (Sorry IP). It's unnerving to go live in a shoot house which is why its important to do it often enough to stay current. Our CQB game is fast and fluid, and with live fire, guys slow down to the point where it becomes dangerous to the whole team in choke points etc.

One of the biggest mistakes is guys get into a paintball mentality, to avoid getting hit. Hell yes sims hurt. DOn't let that affect your training. If you pop your head out, and shoot, and then duck behind cover, a more aggressive-minded shooter is going to destroy you. We don't give up ground in CQB unless it becomes tactically necessary (I realize that's a silly ass statement..) By tactically necessary I mean we've reached a sticking point, by which time we will back off and reduce the room, house etc through explosives or terminal guidance operations.
3/22/13 1:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2903

What everybody want to get feisty when Jed's asleep, nobody wants to discuss when he's around.  

 

3/22/13 2:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr. Wright
184 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/13/02
Posts: 21523
Jedburgh1 - 

What everybody want to get feisty when Jed's asleep, nobody wants to discuss when he's around.  

 


students always fuck around when the teachers not in the room....

3/22/13 2:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
awilson82
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/07
Posts: 16733

^^^LOL

My take on the whole technique vs tactical thing is shooting is alot like boxing.

You can learn to throw great jabs and hooks and learn good footwork (ie technique) and you can spar (force on force training, competing, etc) but until you get in the ring and get hit and hit back and employ all that technique in a real situation then you dont really know what works and what doesnt. Which is why for tactical training you want a pro like Jed or Mars or any of our other resident OG badasses who has been in the ring and can tell you what works and what will get you laid out.

However that doesnt mean there arent great civilian shooting trainers that can teach you alot or that any former military guy needs to be ex-Delta or something.

Also like boxing, shooting is a degrading skill (ie use it or lose it) so even through this ammo crisis keep shooting enough to keep your skills up :)

3/22/13 3:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
IP
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/22/09
Posts: 4243
"Sorry IP" - Haha, no problem and I get what you're saying about the benefits of conducting tactical movement with live fire. Here's my reasoning related to what I said about live-fire houses and Airsoft/Sims training. Take it for what it's worth.

Every SWAT cop gets introduced to 2 things in Basic SWAT school (mine was beautiful Fort Ord in Monterey put on by the FBI) that they will rarely, if ever, use later: live-fire house and rappelling. Back in the day, live-fire houses consisted of tires, large timbers and sand - and they were few and far between. Today, they're made of composite materials, with catwalks and moveable walls, some even multi story - and they are STILL few and far between. In my 17 SWAT years I'll bet I used them around 5 or 6 times - 3 during competitions and once using Airsoft during a small team tactics class. The other 2 times we just got lucky.

My point is they're not readily available to the average SWAT team so you adapt. You create mock-ups at your range that simulate a portion of a live-fire house. You create drills to shoot and move closely with one another to mirror the benefits of a live-fire house. Finally, you find alternatives that take the benefits of a live-fire house and combine them with role-players (suspects, victims and witnesses/extras) and legitimate scenarios you might face down the road to test guys' weapons proficiency (manipulation/marksmanship), tactical movement and decision making. Airsoft/Sims is a great way to do this. Again, it doesn't replace shooting real guns but instead combines pretty much everything in one big test that you can't safely perform in a live-fire house.

We had access to a large vacant office building where we could bang, shotgun breach, gas, use role players, almost anything but shoot live ammo. We'd also acquired homes under construction that had everything except texture and carpeting - so we used bangs and Airsoft. Hell, we got a hold of City office buildings at night and used Airsoft (I caught some heat for that). Options are out there if you look.

Note about Airsoft/Sims training: I completely agree with Jed that there is a fine line between good scenario based training and "chase the flag" paintball mentality. When I say force on force I'm not talking about 4 guys against 4 guys in a free-for-all. Everything we did was related to real-life situations we either faced or expected to face. You'd be surprised how much, if set up correctly, you can "get into" a scenario.

3/22/13 4:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2904
I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.
3/22/13 4:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lurken
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/2/04
Posts: 10270
Jedburgh1 -  Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post



And like most threads, it will go to shit when sreiter shows up.

Standby for massive shittalking about how Jackburtons Da Da is the bestest in the world.
3/22/13 4:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
IP
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/22/09
Posts: 4244
Jedburgh1 - I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.

The other thing about shot houses I've been expose to: They were all sub-sonic round capable only. No rifles. That was kind of a drag, especially as of late we transitioned over from subguns to carbines.

LAPD SWAT TL (retired) friend of mine said he never used rappelling during a real event.
3/22/13 4:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2905
Lurken -
Jedburgh1 -  Damn this thread always heats up when I go to bed Phone Post



And like most threads, it will go to shit when sreiter shows up.

Standby for massive shittalking about how Jackburtons Da Da is the bestest in the world.
And yet your two posts here have been about him. Phone Post
3/22/13 4:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Nitemare
316 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/27/11
Posts: 8097

3/22/13 4:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 181
Who is this "jack burton's dad"?

I've heard him mentioned for years. Is he someone I've heard of?
3/22/13 4:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2906
He is a very accomplished shooter and special operations veteran Phone Post
3/22/13 4:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MountainMedic
550 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/30/07
Posts: 17543
Jedburgh1 -

What everybody want to get feisty when Jed's asleep, nobody wants to discuss when he's around.  

 

Lol Phone Post
3/22/13 4:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 182
"He is a very accomplished shooter and special operations veteran"

Is he a well known instructor? If he is I've probably heard of him and his name is out there already, so.......who is he? Just curious.

If he's not then I understand not wanting to say.
3/22/13 4:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jerry Bohlander
55 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 675
Jedburgh1 - I didn't realize you guys were so bereft of shoot houses. That seems almost criminal negligence from a funding standpoint, but I guess you make do where you can.

But +1 on rappelling being the single most useless "tactical" skill.
I only know of 2-3 shoot houses anywhere nearby. It does suck because when I've gotten the chance to train in them it was great. Phone Post
3/22/13 4:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
534 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2907
He taught at gunsite but its not my lane to put his name out there Phone Post
3/22/13 4:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tyronehernandez
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/16/12
Posts: 184
Wink if its Ken Hackathorn....

On a side note I just found out that Bob Munden died. RIP.
3/22/13 5:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26471
tyronehernandez - Wink if its Ken Hackathorn....

On a side note I just found out that Bob Munden died. RIP.

no

His name is out there on a number of articles if you google it.

He was also a LEO, undercover for a 3 letter gov agency, Col Coopers right hand man for a while (in charge of new bus. development) and teaches a few gov agencies , like dept of interior, high profile EP service (Bill Gates)... also a professional big game hunter ... world commander, defender or the universe (inside joke)

Its weird..i mentioned his name a few times... he doesnt have a problem with it, but it might lead to jack (hes mentioned his name a few times to ) and personal info about forum members is verbotin

Its really for jack to say or not say

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.