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3/23/13 4:58 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Impromptu run-and-gun
3/23/13 5:27 PM
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tyronehernandez
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"Best I can tell by the scoring system, I missed expert by 1 second! "

Hope I'm doing this correctly...

The scoring gois like this:

single digits = expert
10-25 = sharpshooter
26-40 =marksman
You start at zero. Add 2 points for every second over 25 and 5 points per miss.

On the first vid I timed you at 31.6 seconds from the time I heard the buzzer until the last shot. So that's 6.6 seconds over the par time giving you either 12 or 14 depending on whether you round up or down. That gives you SHARPSHOOTER.

Nice shooting!

On the second vid, I couldn't tell when the buzzer started but i went from when you raised the muzzle until the last shot and got a 29 which is 4 points over for a total of 8. Assuming no misses that would be EXPERT.

Very nice shooting Jed!

I would love to have access to a range like that and be able to do drills, draw from a holster, shoot and move, etc. I won't even waste ammo/time going to a static line range anymore unless its to zero something. I'd rather just dry practice at home. The only time I get to do what I consider practical shooting is when taking classes....

There are a few private member only ranges within about an hour of me where I can do that kind of stuff but The hoops to join have kept me away. Your vids motivate me to just go through the hassle and do it.
3/23/13 5:41 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Ok maybe I was confused.

I didn't count the second run because it's a cold drill. I would've liked to stay and shoot and film all day but I had stuff to do today. Maybe the OG can make a list of drills for me next time.

Funny thing about that range is I really don't love it all that much. It's my buddy's land, so it's very close by and it's free, but he's about 65 and doesn't care about all that "practical shooting" stuff. If it were up to me, we'd expand the berm to a true horseshoe, and put in some steel but he's worried about ricochet. His land his rules.

I highly recommend joining a club that offers a similar set up. Flat ranges are good for about what you said; zeroing and marksmanship maintenance. Don't let that atrophy your training!
3/23/13 6:04 PM
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_33
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I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.
3/23/13 6:31 PM
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Jedburgh1
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I think Randy Cain teaches in PA somewhere Phone Post
3/23/13 6:36 PM
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OnCall
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_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Randy Cain is teaching his Tactical Handgun class in Pittsburgh June 15-17 and his Practical Rifle class June 21-23. I've taken his handgun class twice and highly recommend it. It's worth taking a few days off work to attend.
3/23/13 6:40 PM
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TheAssMurderer
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Jedburgh1 -  The VFG is knights armament Phone Post

Ah, you fucking rock!

 

About everything Pro-Mag makes is junk  -It's the only VFG I could find that looked similar to the one you use. Looks arent everything, but your VFG "looks" more comfy than mine. I currently have a Magpul on one rifle and a Daniel Defense on another.

 

Now that I get to try and find one! thanks again

3/23/13 6:41 PM
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tyronehernandez
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Jed -

Any reason you chose braced kneeling over fast kneeling in that drill.

I've been looking at the Rainier Arms Raptor. Any thoughts on that thing? I'm a lefty...
3/23/13 7:07 PM
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Jedburgh1
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More accurate. That pie plate is damned small. In fact when I first mounted the gun to start the drill I was like "fuck that's tiny"

I don't know anything about the raptor. Maybe try over at m4carbine.net?
3/23/13 8:06 PM
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sreiter
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TheAssMurderer - 
Jedburgh1 -  The VFG is knights armament Phone Post

Ah, you fucking rock!

 

About everything Pro-Mag makes is junk  -It's the only VFG I could find that looked similar to the one you use. Looks arent everything, but your VFG "looks" more comfy than mine. I currently have a Magpul on one rifle and a Daniel Defense on another.

 

Now that I get to try and find one! thanks again


just for shits and giggles....

i dont use any, but most folks i've read who do prefer the tango down more then any other

i tried one and thought it was a little heavy
3/23/13 8:15 PM
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sreiter
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Jedburgh1 - More accurate. That pie plate is damned small. In fact when I first mounted the gun to start the drill I was like "fuck that's tiny"

I don't know anything about the raptor. Maybe try over at m4carbine.net?

I think its just perception.

if the target was man size, I'm SURE you'd still be well within the pie plate anyway (center mass)...think of it in those terms, and it may not see as small.

Nice
vid and shooting,,,


BUT

you loose some style points for no Shemagh - :)
3/23/13 8:18 PM
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Gforce
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_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Not basic, but Pat McNamara will be just outside of Philadelphia in 2 weeks. Regrettably, that class is full.

Will post a report--possibly here on this thread.
3/23/13 8:25 PM
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sreiter
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Rhymenoceros - 
TheAssMurderer - 
Rhymenoceros - Ben Stoeger's books are well worth the money.

The dryfire book is the best on the subject there is.

http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Shooting-Guaranteed-Results-Minutes/dp/1481874713/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1364070391&sr=8-3&keywords=ben+stoeger

The drills book is good as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Shooting-Proven-Process-Success/dp/1480271632/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1364070391&sr=8-4&keywords=ben+stoeger

And finally, his "fundamentals" book is incredible. He covers pretty much every aspect of shooting a pistol, and he busts some popular myths such as the "press out" draw, et al. He has a bunch of blurbs written by guys like Vogel and Sevigny, and covers their approach to pistol shooting as well as his own. It's about 200 pages, and the first hundred are pistol fundamentals, while the second hundred focus on competition-specific techniques. I can't imagine anyone not getting a lot out of this book. There is also a certain someone mentioned first in the acknowledgements...

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Pistol-Fundamental-Techniques-Competition/dp/1482009978/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364070391&sr=8-1&keywords=ben+stoeger


Sweet. I'm always down with a new book.

 

I'm trying to put together an order before Sunday on Amazon with a few new books. Thought about buying "Refinement and Repetition" by Steve Anderson.

More dry fire drills.

 

I'll have to buy one of Stoegers books too.


No offense to Anderson, but "refinement and repetition" is garbage compared to Stoeger's book. Anderson has some really flawed approaches to training, but Stoeger's approach is what helped him win a couple national championships in a row.

but how many people has his book help other win championships?

One thing i learned a long time ago is what works for one champion, may not work for anyone else on the plant...

that person may have developed things that help him for his attributes, or just some crazy shit that works for him because his brain works a certain way.

you really cant say this guy has the key/secret until a fair number of people used his techniques and went from relative no where to champ.

you can say all you want about antiquated techs from the modern method, but you cant argue with the number of amazing shooters who became that way because of it....which btw is not a "how to win competitions" method. its a "how to win gunfights" method.

same thing with fist fire... people hate it, but, middlebrook produce a good number of champs, including forum member(dont know if he posts anymore) paul sharp..
3/23/13 8:28 PM
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Jedburgh1
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sreiter - 
Jedburgh1 - More accurate. That pie plate is damned small. In fact when I first mounted the gun to start the drill I was like "fuck that's tiny"

I don't know anything about the raptor. Maybe try over at m4carbine.net?

I think its just perception.

if the target was man size, I'm SURE you'd still be well within the pie plate anyway (center mass)...think of it in those terms, and it may not see as small.

Nice
vid and shooting,,,


BUT

you loose some style points for no Shemagh - :)

Hahah I'm going back tomorrow to shoot in full range-commando gear.
3/23/13 8:37 PM
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Gforce
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_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Yeager will be there twice in August :)
3/23/13 9:04 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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The quote feature on this site if fucking awful, btw.

"but how many people has his book help other win championships?"

Probably not many. A great deal of people have used Anderson's stuff to make paper GM (haterade, sure), but the book doesn't have the kind of drills that will make you a champion.

"One thing i learned a long time ago is what works for one champion, may not work for anyone else on the plant...

that person may have developed things that help him for his attributes, or just some crazy shit that works for him because his brain works a certain way."

I get what you're saying, but I can also tell you haven't read either book from the points you're making. In a nutshell, Anderson's book is just a bunch of USPSA classifiers put on paper with tracking sheets and the instruction "Do these a bunch of times and try to go faster each time." Stoeger's book has about 30 aspects of shooting broken down into 15 minute blocks. So you spend 15 minutes working on various aspects of shooting at a distance, then you spend 15 minutes working on 180 degree transitions, then 15 minutes working on extremely close target gun handling, and so on. And he posts beginner, intermediate, and expert times. But here's the difference, and here's why Stoeger has two championships and Anderson will never win one: Stoeger's stuff is about seeing and thinking faster and gaining consistency, not just "hosing" targets as fast as you can with an empty gun.

"you really cant say this guy has the key/secret until a fair number of people used his techniques and went from relative no where to champ."

Anderson's book has been out for years and no one has credited it with helping them win a championship. Anderson and his closest acolytes haven't even won regional championships.

"you can say all you want about antiquated techs from the modern method, but you cant argue with the number of amazing shooters who became that way because of it....which btw is not a "how to win competitions" method. its a "how to win gunfights" method."

Totally true. And working on Anderson's stuff is more geared toward "how to improve your classification" than even how to win competitions, and it certainly has nothing to do with winning gunfights.

"same thing with fist fire... people hate it, but, middlebrook produce a good number of champs, including forum member(dont know if he posts anymore) paul sharp.."

Hmmm, that's an interesting discussion (though a total thread drift). I don't think people hate fist fire, they hate Middlebrooks. That guy rubs people the wrong way everywhere he goes for some reason. I think he's banned from almost every shooting forum in existence, and he'll probably be here shortly to post on this very thread if history is any indication. I've studied some of the fist fire stuff and it seems remarkably similar to what everyone else does, especially if you consider that everyone has their own flavor of how to shoot (Leatham looks nothing like Sevigny looks nothing like Vogel looks nothing like Stoeger looks nothing like Grauffel, etc). They all share similar elements, and Middlebrooks probably has as much in common with them than they do with each other. There is no question Middlebrooks can shoot, obviously. And I haven't heard of Paul Sharp - not sure what he won - but I'm sure Middlebrooks's students are very good at what they do.

Anyway, if you want an absolutely killer dryfire training paradigm check out Ben's book. I think you will be very impressed. Don't just skip to the drills, though, there is important stuff in the beginning.
3/23/13 9:05 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Gforce - 
_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Yeager will be there twice in August :)

That's ambitious of him. I would think they would run him out of town after the first class.
3/23/13 9:25 PM
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sreiter
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"And I haven't heard of Paul Sharp "

i havent spoken to him, or seen him post here for about 7-10 years, so i have no idea what he's up too.

I was introduced by either adam or rory singer because at the time they were all straight blast gym guys,

Paul is/was in Mn. he may have stopped competing long before you started..
3/23/13 10:34 PM
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Ahren_nhb
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n2bateyou - 
 

Can I get an invite? Im well-behaved.

Of courde bro!

Work up any loads for your 300 yet?

3/23/13 11:57 PM
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Gforce
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Rhymenoceros - 
Gforce - 
_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Yeager will be there twice in August :)

That's ambitious of him. I would think they would run him out of town after the first class.

Got to give him huge credit with regard to being successful due to masterful marketing skills.

I read the AARs from his classes religiously--specifically to look at the photos for entertainment. The classes are absolutely PACKED. He's also got a busier training schedule than pretty much everyone in the industry.

In a funny way, you have to respect him. That being said, I wouldn't go near one of those classes w/o rifle plates and a LOT of life insurance.
3/24/13 3:01 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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That was great Jed!

Some people may not realize how hard that is, because it is so simple....but under speed requirement, 8in tgt center is SMALL and ain't no joke!

You have inspired me. I don't have access to the private range until our next scheduled day the 12th IIRC, but I'm gonna try it when I get out there. I sold off my M68 several months ago, so I'm gonna do it with irons.

Last week I was doing, low ready to singles, doubles, triples and mag dumps on my oval metal head target (10inHx8inW) at 50yds and was hammering the tgt well and rarely missed, so I'm hoping to do a fair job on the paper plate.


Or maybe not......LOL? :(
3/24/13 4:06 AM
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tyronehernandez
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Rym -

Which one of Stoeger's books would you recommend to start with?

3/24/13 7:36 AM
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_33
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Gforce - 
Rhymenoceros - 
Gforce - 
_33 - I've had to run to Google like 20 times reading this thread. Is there anywhere in the Philadelphia area that has some sort of basic classes? I'm not looking to be the next Jedburgh, but would love to learn some. I tend to learn much faster in class and hands on.


I have a couple of basic classes I plan on attending in reference to renewing my LTCF permit. They're not needed, but after reading here and talking to guys at the range I feel like I got left behind.

Yeager will be there twice in August :)

That's ambitious of him. I would think they would run him out of town after the first class.

Got to give him huge credit with regard to being successful due to masterful marketing skills.

I read the AARs from his classes religiously--specifically to look at the photos for entertainment. The classes are absolutely PACKED. He's also got a busier training schedule than pretty much everyone in the industry.

In a funny way, you have to respect him. That being said, I wouldn't go near one of those classes w/o rifle plates and a LOT of life insurance.

Wait.. hold on for a second brother... that last sentence or two???

I found some beginners classes, but it sounds like I'm way past what they are teaching. I've been shooting since I was a baby. I'm not really looking into reliving basic rifle classes. I'm more interested in this tactical stuff. Also, do I need a tactical type rifle? I have a few rifles, but they are all hunting specific. Will they allow me to bring my .35 Marlin lever action???


I thought about selling what I have to get an AR, but my best memories of me and my Pop were with those guns, so they're staying forever.
3/24/13 10:49 AM
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TheAssMurderer
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tyronehernandez - Rym -

Which one of Stoeger's books would you recommend to start with?


I'm not Rym, but I'm ordering one of his books tonight. If you have a Kindle and are a Prime member, you can read it for free.

You'll probably want to start with (VOLUME 1) :

 

Champion Shooting: A Proven Process for Success at Any Level (Volume 1) by Ben Stoeger and Jay Hirshberg (Nov 5, 2012)

3/24/13 11:15 AM
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Jedburgh1
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So yesterday a little voice in my head said "hey you talk big on the internet, when's the last time you did anything to improve yourself as a shooter?"

So I'm signing up for some privates in April. Can't hurt right.

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