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OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


3/27/13 7:37 PM
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tyronehernandez
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".and back to counting...so counting to 10 with a 1911 is easy, but 20 with a double stack or 9mm is hard?"

I would think that keeping track of 7 plus 1 (standard for a 1911 in the cooper era) during the madness of a gunfight where people are trying to kill you and you may have been injured would be easier than keeping track of 19 plus 1. Also of more value, as you would run out a lot faster with a 7 round mag than a 19.

With a 1911 carrying one back up mag you have 15 rounds to work with (2 mags of 7 plus 1 in the chamber)

With a modern 9mm you have 39 (2 mags of 19 plus 1 in the chamber).

39 is a lot better than than 15 IMHO which is why I asked if this counting rounds thing might have it origins in the "modern technique" and the 1911?

Seriously the counting rounds thing is something totally new to me. I know that Haley and Costa specifically say not count rounds and I've never been taught to do it - only to perform a tactical reload in the proverbial "lull in the gunfight"

On that other thread you guys seem to imply that you should never let the gun run dry and I would agree with a few exceptions - one being when people are still shooting at you.

Even if you've counted your rounds and "know" that you have an empty mag but still one in the chamber IMHO it would be VERY wrong (to put it mildly), when still engaged in a 2 way gunfight to choose to perform a tactical reload at that point rather than run it dry and e-reload. Again, just my humble opinion.

As far as what Rmy says about it, I can see counting rounds in competition being a valuable skill but totally different in that in comp you are running stages that you have a chance to see and plan for before running them. Part of that game, again IMHO, is planning it all out and planning where to reload to most efficiently complete the stage.....plus no one is shooting back at you.


3/27/13 7:37 PM
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effinggoof
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Doesn't pretty much everyone tuck their elbow into the side to achieve that consistent, steady position for every reload, while allowing them to look at the mag well while keeping everything in thier peripheral vision?


3/27/13 8:06 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Hmm, busy day I see. A few points to make.

I count rounds in a sense....I know that when I fire my rifle, it will be in a non-standard response i.e. shoot until the threat is down. So let's say the average shot count for an NSR is 5. I know that if I engage 3 targets in a room, I have fired PROBABLY 15 rounds. I don't keep a running count of what I have fired, but I have a general idea of where I am at in my magazine.

However...before I leave that room, fight, field whatever, I am changing mags. Once I have finished that engagement, I am changing mags. In a CQB scenario, it's ok to drop your sector once the room is clear. Just have your buddy pick yours up, or body-bunker you if there's still a red zone.

Next point: Reload behind cover, then run. If you're already moving and you run out, run faster. It's better than standing out in the open, shuffling along, fiddle fucking with magazines.

The only situation I can picture right now where moving and reloading has been necessary has been on an assault line, conducting Battle Drill #2, which most folks won't ever do.

As always feel free to discuss.
3/27/13 8:26 PM
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sreiter
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i cant tell in the first vid, but in the second vid, it looks like that guy has a extended mag well.. large bevels/fairs, which make for much easier/faster reloads

if you're running that mod, i can being able to change lower with ease
3/27/13 8:31 PM
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sreiter
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"39 is a lot better than than 15 IMHO which is why I asked if this counting rounds thing might have it origins in the "modern technique" and the 1911?"

guys shooting rifles do to, as jack said

"On that other thread you guys seem to imply that you should never let the gun run dry and I would agree with a few exceptions - one being when people are still shooting at you."

You should be firing from cover, so you can change with someone shooting at you

"Even if you've counted your rounds and "know" that you have an empty mag but still one in the chamber IMHO it would be VERY wrong (to put it mildly), when still engaged in a 2 way gunfight to choose to perform a tactical reload at that point rather than run it dry and e-reload. Again, just my humble opinion.:

a e-reload is just letting your mag drop vs tact w/mag retention... you can do a e-reload with one in the chamber...the reason why you retain your mag, is JIC you need those few extra rounds when you do finally go dry
3/27/13 8:34 PM
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sreiter
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"Next point: Reload behind cover, then run. If you're already moving and you run out, run faster. It's better than standing out in the open, shuffling along, fiddle fucking with magazines. "


best advise ever

" count rounds in a sense....I know that when I fire my rifle, it will be in a non-standard response i.e. shoot until the threat is down. So let's say the average shot count for an NSR is 5. I know that if I engage 3 targets in a room, I have fired PROBABLY 15 rounds. I don't keep a running count of what I have fired, but I have a general idea of where I am at in my magazine. "


thats what its all about... you neednt have a exact count... just generally know where you are, and reload when you can, instead of when you must
3/27/13 8:35 PM
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sreiter
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effinggoof - Doesn't pretty much everyone tuck their elbow into the side to achieve that consistent, steady position for every reload, while allowing them to look at the mag well while keeping everything in thier peripheral vision?



pretty much
3/27/13 8:51 PM
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TheAssMurderer
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^^

 

Which shooting stance do you guys use / prefer?

3/27/13 10:09 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - i cant tell in the first vid, but in the second vid, it looks like that guy has a extended mag well.. large bevels/fairs, which make for much easier/faster reloads

if you're running that mod, i can being able to change lower with ease

Vogel shoots a glock without a magwell (guy in first vid) even in divisions where he's allowed to use one.

Steoger (2nd vid) shoots a fucking Beretta. *vomit* With no magwell.

And as far as magwells enabling lower vs. higher reloads, it's the opposite.
3/27/13 10:11 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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"I count rounds in a sense....I know that when I fire my rifle, it will be in a non-standard response i.e. shoot until the threat is down. So let's say the average shot count for an NSR is 5. I know that if I engage 3 targets in a room, I have fired PROBABLY 15 rounds. I don't keep a running count of what I have fired, but I have a general idea of where I am at in my magazine.

However...before I leave that room, fight, field whatever, I am changing mags. Once I have finished that engagement, I am changing mags."

This is fascinating. If I just changed a couple of vocabulary terms it would be EXACTLY how I describe how I count rounds and when I reload during a stage.

Not that I'm comparing myself to you at all. I just find it really interesting.
3/27/13 10:14 PM
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sreiter
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"And as far as magwells enabling lower vs. higher reloads, it's the opposite. "

how do you figure? mag wells allow you to be off center, and funnel the mag into the well. it allows a margin of error. No need to to have detailed eyes trained on the mag/well to ensure precise insertion
3/27/13 10:16 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Does uspsa do partial mag changes? The one time I shot IDPA I got some sort of foul for dumping a mag with 3 rounds in it for a fresh one. Phone Post
3/27/13 10:18 PM
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sreiter
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"Steoger (2nd vid) shoots a fucking Beretta. *vomit* With no magwell."

freeze framing - it looks damn wide to me..and it looks like it flairs too. his pinky even seems wider then the rest of his grip
3/27/13 10:24 PM
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sreiter
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tyronehernandez - "IMHO this is kind of outdated. I think its slower, more prone to fumbling, and if it gets to that point you are moving while you are reloading so you are better off bring the gun into your "work space" or "zone of dexterity" or whatever you call it where you can more easily perform the reload."

sigh-dude, your work space is right in front of your face, looking at the mag well

where in the world do you think it is?"

This is you from that other thread you posted:

"half way between position 4 and 5 of the mag well should be in your direct line of sight, and even though you slight cant your wrist so you can see the mag well, the muzzle is still pointed down range,"

Forgive me if I misinterpreted what you intended. From your description, "muzzle pointed downrange" and "halfway between pos 4 and 5", it didn't sound like what is considered the modern interpretation of "work space". Hard to "look at the mag well" when the muzzle is pointing at the target unless your wrist is held at an un-natural angle.

As far as the counting thing goes, it just seems like in the heat/fog/insanity of a real gunfight (have you been in one?), many things would go out the window - including remembering to count. Do you remember how many punched you've thrown in the fights you've been in?

Perhaps in a situation where you fire once or double tap once and end the fight but in an instance where you are firing many more rounds to the point of having to reload AND being fired on I doubt many would have the calmness or metal focus to be counting their rounds.

I could be wrong.

watch Robb Leatham and see how far away from his body the gun is while doing reloads... he's about 1/2 way between step 4 and 5

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2011/08/12/speed-reload-versus-tactical-reload/
3/27/13 10:43 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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Jedburgh1 -  Does uspsa do partial mag changes? The one time I shot IDPA I got some sort of foul for dumping a mag with 3 rounds in it for a fresh one. Phone Post

Yep. Drop any mag, any time, anywhere. Part of the challenge is figuring out the most advantageous times to reload based on the shooting challenge and the limits of your equipment.

IDPA will penalize you for dropping an empty mag if you still have a round in the chamber. You HAVE to run the gun dry, or else stow the magazine. Do the math on that - if you're smart enough to reload with an empty mag and one in the chamber, you have to stow the empty mag otherwise incur a penalty. This is yet another reason I don't shoot IDPA any more.
3/27/13 10:45 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - "Steoger (2nd vid) shoots a fucking Beretta. *vomit* With no magwell."

freeze framing - it looks damn wide to me..and it looks like it flairs too. his pinky even seems wider then the rest of his grip

I don't know what to tell you. It's a Beretta 92. Elite 2 to be exact. It definitely does not have a magwell.
3/27/13 10:47 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - "And as far as magwells enabling lower vs. higher reloads, it's the opposite. "

how do you figure? mag wells allow you to be off center, and funnel the mag into the well. it allows a margin of error. No need to to have detailed eyes trained on the mag/well to ensure precise insertion

For sure, magwells allow for a larger margin of error. They allow you to just barely bring the gun out of shooting position and pretty much sling the magazine up in there. Most people use the advantage of a magwell to keep the gun higher with less wasted movement, which with a production gun, would result in more missed reloads.
3/27/13 11:44 PM
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tyronehernandez
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"watch Robb Leatham and see how far away from his body the gun is while doing reloads... he's about 1/2 way between step 4 and 5"

I think the takeaway here is that we aren't robots. What is ideal for one is not ideal for another. When learning a new skill its important to get good info and fundamentals but beyond a certain point we develop idiosyncrasies that just work better for us as individuals. This is how things evolve and get better IMO.

Besides, the purpose of the mag change is to get more ammo in the weapon as fast as possible without losing awareness of the situation around you - not to do it exactly as it was taught to you by such and such.

Case in point: Chocolate Al's right hand.

And back to the counting - being roughly aware of getting low on ammo and actually counting as was described on that thread are two different things.

The tac reload IMHO should be done in any lull, not just when you feel you are getting low. Better to top off when the chance arises than wait until "low" when the opportunity might not present itself. And if you counted wrongly?

"a e-reload is just letting your mag drop vs tact w/mag retention... you can do a e-reload with one in the chamber...the reason why you retain your mag, is JIC you need those few extra rounds when you do finally go dry"

Doing what you described - a T instead of an E when down to the round in the chamber - would require you to be exactly aware of your exact round count, something I still say is pretty impractical in the middle of a gun fight. Remember, we are talking about a chaotic 2-way gun fight, not the range. If you dump it you are dumping perfectly good ammo you might need later and taking time to do it - if you retain it you are taking time out in the MIDDLE OF A GUNFIGHT with bullets heading your way to put the mag away instead of SHOOTING BACK. Either way, I don't see the logic.

If someone is shooting at you are you really going to remain so cool as to count to 19, then do a tac reload, retaining that mag? If not why do a tac in the first place? Don't you think shooting until dry, dumping, and getting another in ASAP sounds like a better idea? Less to concern your mind with, maximum focus on the threat, and faster reloading technique.

Shooting the threat should be priority #1, followed by getting more ammo in the weapon.
Under your theory those two things are reversed.

And what you and Jack were saying on that other thread was that you should never run dry because you always should have an exact round count going on in your head in the midst of utter chaos and be able to know exactly when (and be able) to do a T instead of an E. Do you really want to get shot while retaining your mag?

That just sounds like the equivalent of trying to do fancy TMA moves in a bar brawl.

Maybe Delta guys and the like who have trained countless hours in shoot houses and have a preternatural ability to remain inhumanly calm in situations where even brave men shit their pants can pull of such moves, maybe even pure psychopaths too - but can you?

"You should be firing from cover, so you can change with someone shooting at you"

Thats all well and good in theory but what if you are in a situation where you don't have cover available? I assume not all gun fight follow a script. "Wait, stop shooting until I get to cover to do a tac please".

I would guess that in a gun fight, for most of us at least, all plans go out the window and we revert, as I've heard so many times, to our worst day of training, not our best.


3/27/13 11:59 PM
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sreiter
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how many gunfights have you been in?

Stop, wait for me to find cover????? lmao... no you keep running, while firing until you find cover. Unless you find yourself in the middle of the Kansas plains, i'm pretty sure you can find cover


this is getting real pointless.... do whatever you want, anyway you want. i really dont care.
3/28/13 12:02 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 03/28/13 12:05 AM
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army pro - reloading at eye level,,,guess its not some old school dead technique..he also reloads while running quite well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2GsmUzSBaUQ&NR=1
3/28/13 12:25 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 03/28/13 12:26 AM
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i'm just sitting here lol'ing thinking about counting...when we're given drills, we count...put 6 rounds here, 2 rounds, here, here, and here

think about a el pres... 2, 2, 2, change mags, 2, 2, 2...why the mag change right there? because you cant complete the string of fire with the mag you have in. So you get your hits, reload when you want, get your hits again...

it aint rocket science...well, i guess for folks on that other thread who cant count to 20 (even in terms of targets engaged, as rhy and jed do), i guess it might as well be rocket science
3/28/13 12:48 AM
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williepep
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Jedburgh1 -  Yeah I figured they were trying to enhance the variety of stages. If they were all realistic scenarios they would be over after 1 or 2 targets.

Also^^^ Mark Larue loves SOF dudes. He will have guys down to test out new products on the range, then sell em a Larue rifle at a huge discount, or at least give em a bag full of SWAG. A fine Texas Patriot. Phone Post

Yep, one of the reasons I buy from the company if it is an option.


Just ordered the Kyle Lamb and the Jeff Gonzales books from Larue, and some junk for slings, QD push button attachment.


Maybe this will speed up the 2 rifles I have on order.
3/28/13 1:02 AM
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williepep
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Speaking of products from US companies, today I placed a decent order from Blue Force Gear.


After throwing in a few comments about helping a fellow Southerner, the fellow worked with me on price by giving a decent discount ( I was surprised ).

Not sure what I am going to do with so many LAV slings, but I was on a roll.

JED (and others ) you may laugh but, I ended up grabbing a Cobra sling in A Tacs as part of the deal.


Not exactly gun fighting, but I figure among other things, the A Tacs will look nice/compliment a FDE rifle.


Blue Force Gear seems like another solid company.






3/28/13 4:25 AM
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Gforce
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Yes, BFG are good people.
3/28/13 6:22 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Reading this threa, specifically "Larue" reminded me of their OPTIMIZED SNIPER SLING.....I poorer now :(

Anybody run one?

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