UnderGround Forums
 

OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

4/23/13 1:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3642
Just so I can be relevant here, I'll post the disjointed info on the draw I have next.
4/23/13 1:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3643
And, for those of you interested in a lot of the information I have written as far as CQB tactics, ccw, and combatives - a lot of it is parroted from a local group. One of the guys is SF and I believe is being deployed now or will be very soon. One of the other guys I know is an operator on the department. Anyway, a lot of their stuff is available on video through their facebook page: High Threat Systems LLC

I do have a tendency to like what they teach and how they teach. Basing training and responses based on the "normal" survival response is something I really like. I wish they'd put out some more videos. The give you videos on attacking from a doorway, the normal human response to a life or death situation (with a number of videos to support it), and some current CQB stuff that is taught to the specialty units of the department (Not losers pushing cruisers).

For those of you wanting to gloss over the draw discussion, there is a TON of valuable information and videos on their facebook page. I personally would love to hear any feedback you have on it.
4/23/13 2:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3644
I also tried to pm everybody back that I could. If you didn't receive a reply, let me know so I can get you my email address.
4/23/13 3:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26746
owen - just read all your posts great stuff
4/23/13 5:59 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gforce
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 13399
Owen Gregg - I also tried to pm everybody back that I could. If you didn't receive a reply, let me know so I can get you my email address.

Still waiting for a PM from you if you want me to hook you up w/ the Aimpoint LEO pro deal (if you don't have one already).
4/23/13 9:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3191

Owen have you taken a class with these HTS cats?  Some of these techniques make me a little uneasy.  

4/23/13 9:16 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3192

^Beginning with how that woman is holding the rifle.  

 

 

Also I found this sweet old training pic  

 

4/23/13 10:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
342 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14888
Owen Gregg - And, for those of you interested in a lot of the information I have written as far as CQB tactics, ccw, and combatives - a lot of it is parroted from a local group. One of the guys is SF and I believe is being deployed now or will be very soon. One of the other guys I know is an operator on the department. Anyway, a lot of their stuff is available on video through their facebook page: High Threat Systems LLC

I do have a tendency to like what they teach and how they teach. Basing training and responses based on the "normal" survival response is something I really like. I wish they'd put out some more videos. The give you videos on attacking from a doorway, the normal human response to a life or death situation (with a number of videos to support it), and some current CQB stuff that is taught to the specialty units of the department (Not losers pushing cruisers).

For those of you wanting to gloss over the draw discussion, there is a TON of valuable information and videos on their facebook page. I personally would love to hear any feedback you have on it.

I have a question for the more tacitcally-experienced folks for myself.

The specific idea of basing training on "normal survival responses" seems strange to me. Isn't the point of training to condition something better than the normal response? For example, the normal response when someone is trying to punch you is to lean your head back away from the danger. You see it all the time when amateurs get in street fights. However, boxers train to "stay in the pocket" and to slip punches with lateral head movement. This is a trained, non-natural (but improved) response to danger.

Isn't firearms training for self defense similar? Wouldn't it be preferable to train for optimal technique as a response rather than for what comes "naturally?"

Thanks!
4/23/13 11:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3193
The best case scenario is to find the optimal technique that is similar to a normal response.

An older example would be the "turtled" isosceles though that has fallen out of favor.

It all depends on the frequency of training. We teach use of cover differently than most folks because we know how most folks use cover and how we can use that to our advantage.

An example of a return to "normal survival response" is the switch from double-tap and assess to a 3-7 shot string. Phone Post 3.0
4/23/13 12:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26747
"For example, the normal response when someone is trying to punch you is to lean your head back away from the danger. You see it all the time when amateurs get in street fights. However, boxers train to "stay in the pocket" and to slip punches with lateral head movement. This is a trained, non-natural (but improved) response to danger. "

????????????????????????????

In boxing, we duck, bob and weave, slip our heads left and right, AND move our heads straight back, just out of range. Show boats will stand there, with there hands at their sides, just moving their heads just out of range, taunting their opponents.

JKD stresses the same, including "swaying back" your head
4/23/13 12:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
342 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14889
sreiter - "For example, the normal response when someone is trying to punch you is to lean your head back away from the danger. You see it all the time when amateurs get in street fights. However, boxers train to "stay in the pocket" and to slip punches with lateral head movement. This is a trained, non-natural (but improved) response to danger. "

????????????????????????????

In boxing, we duck, bob and weave, slip our heads left and right, AND move our heads straight back, just out of range. Show boats will stand there, with there hands at their sides, just moving their heads just out of range, taunting their opponents.

JKD stresses the same, including "swaying back" your head

Dude, respectfully, can you try to refrain from hijacking the thread?

I asked a specific question and gave a specific example that was not meant to be an all-encompassing treatise on the encyclopedia of boxing technique in any way. Anyone would have realized that. I really don't give a shit about JKD or the aspects of boxing I didn't feel it necessary to describe. What I do give a shit about is the concept of basing all of your technique around "natural" responses to something quite unnatural like gunfighting, which is something I don't think you or I can speak on, considering neither of us has ever been in a gunfight.
4/23/13 12:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rhymenoceros
342 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14890
Also, I'm starting a thread so we can continue our "discussion" of the draw without distracting from this thread. It will be on the weapons training subforum.
4/23/13 2:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3645
Gforce - 
Owen Gregg - I also tried to pm everybody back that I could. If you didn't receive a reply, let me know so I can get you my email address.

Still waiting for a PM from you if you want me to hook you up w/ the Aimpoint LEO pro deal (if you don't have one already).

Gforce, it's telling me you only accept PM's from Pros and friends and will not let me send you one.
4/23/13 2:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3646
Jedburgh1 - 

Owen have you taken a class with these HTS cats?  Some of these techniques make me a little uneasy.  


I have not taken any classes with them, but they are the guys that help with our "in service" training as far as building searches, open field searches, etc.

I forgot about the pronated grip issue. It's a HUGE can of worms. Personally, I run the "normal" or supinated AR grip since I'm just beginning. The pronated grip thing has been a hot topic of debate here locally for a few years. I can't say I personally have any experience with it. What I can say is I've talked to a lot of our SWAT guys. A lot of these guys were Marines and absolutely hated the grip, only later to adapt it and become LOUD advocates of it. Some have not. I don't remember where it came from. Maybe Henk Iverson, but I'm not sure, so don't quote me on it.

The SF guys is the guy demonstrating in the Basic Cornering 101 drill, and you can see he is not using that grip. One of the other main instructors can be seen in this video of a class they hosted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-nmH-SPzGV8

He also does not use the "pronated" grip. I do not know if they specifically teach it.

Their previous facebook page with videos was "IACT Tactical" They have some videos of classes they've put on and some training stuff on there, too.

Here's one of their youtube channels with a few videos of some of the classes with SWAT and some others:

https://www.youtube.com/user/tthrash1000/videos?view=0&flow=grid

If your comfortable putting the information onto a public forum, I'd love to hear any feedback you have. I personally disagree with their point shooting philosophy, but I have disagreements of one sort or another with all training, just as I expect everyone else to. If we don't keep disagreeing and searching for better solutions, we don't grow.
4/23/13 2:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26750
"Dude, respectfully"

You've been anything but. Plus you're a little fag for voting me down for the past several days too.
4/23/13 3:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3647
Rhymenoceros - 
Owen Gregg - And, for those of you interested in a lot of the information I have written as far as CQB tactics, ccw, and combatives - a lot of it is parroted from a local group. One of the guys is SF and I believe is being deployed now or will be very soon. One of the other guys I know is an operator on the department. Anyway, a lot of their stuff is available on video through their facebook page: High Threat Systems LLC

I do have a tendency to like what they teach and how they teach. Basing training and responses based on the "normal" survival response is something I really like. I wish they'd put out some more videos. The give you videos on attacking from a doorway, the normal human response to a life or death situation (with a number of videos to support it), and some current CQB stuff that is taught to the specialty units of the department (Not losers pushing cruisers).

For those of you wanting to gloss over the draw discussion, there is a TON of valuable information and videos on their facebook page. I personally would love to hear any feedback you have on it.

I have a question for the more tacitcally-experienced folks for myself.

The specific idea of basing training on "normal survival responses" seems strange to me. Isn't the point of training to condition something better than the normal response? For example, the normal response when someone is trying to punch you is to lean your head back away from the danger. You see it all the time when amateurs get in street fights. However, boxers train to "stay in the pocket" and to slip punches with lateral head movement. This is a trained, non-natural (but improved) response to danger.

Isn't firearms training for self defense similar? Wouldn't it be preferable to train for optimal technique as a response rather than for what comes "naturally?"

Thanks!

I don't have a lot of tactical experience, but I find a lot of similarities between old discussions about MMA and gunfighting. You can absolutely have trained responses that will be different than an "instinctive" response.

The difference between MMA and gunfighting is this: In MMA, you can expose yourself to situations repeatedly without fear of death. And by exposing yourself to it, you can train your body to react with an optimal response; even if that response is the opposite of an "instinctual" response.

In training for gunfights, you simply cannot replicate the level of fear and adrenaline that comes with fighting for your life. You can get damn close to the real thing with simunitions and such, but it just isn't the same. You should begin to see some "too deadly for the ring" parallels in discussions like these. If we can't replicate what happens in real life, how are we sure it will work?

This is also why operators with actual experience are so sought after in the training industry. They have the experience with these situations most of us never will. Having "been there and done that" is experience you can't put a value on.

I guess the short answer to your question, from my point of view is this: It would be preferable to train for optimal technique. The issue becomes a lack of availability of training where you can honestly simulate the environment you might be put in. Just my .02
4/23/13 3:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3648
Jedburgh1 - The best case scenario is to find the optimal technique that is similar to a normal response.

An older example would be the "turtled" isosceles though that has fallen out of favor.

It all depends on the frequency of training. We teach use of cover differently than most folks because we know how most folks use cover and how we can use that to our advantage.

An example of a return to "normal survival response" is the switch from double-tap and assess to a 3-7 shot string. Phone Post 3.0

I should have read this before posting. It's much more clear and concise than what I wrote.
4/23/13 3:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sreiter
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/23/13 3:59 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26751
"
4/23/13 4:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3194
"If your comfortable putting the information onto a public forum, I'd love to hear any feedback you have. I personally disagree with their point shooting philosophy, but I have disagreements of one sort or another with all training, just as I expect everyone else to. If we don't keep disagreeing and searching for better solutions, we don't grow."

I wrote and edited this post several times. I am always very leery of OPSEC on this issue and don't want to step over any lines.

The grip issue you highlighted already. The only thing I would add is: why go against the natural ergonomics of your own body? Were that the penultimate technique, you would see all the high-level shooters using it. Sometimes training techniques and tips (and rifle platform endorsements) stem from an instructors' desire to be DIFFERENT.

The other few things I would add is the 3-person death blossom at the fatal funnel. This is bad technique anyway but now you've given the bad guys a perfect "flock shoot" for those familiar with bird hunting.


And finally, shooting into a room, and then hesitating. Any other gunmen will now be on full alert. I don't know what most agencies' policy is on this, but it's very dangerous.
4/23/13 5:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3650
Jedburgh1 - "If your comfortable putting the information onto a public forum, I'd love to hear any feedback you have. I personally disagree with their point shooting philosophy, but I have disagreements of one sort or another with all training, just as I expect everyone else to. If we don't keep disagreeing and searching for better solutions, we don't grow."

I wrote and edited this post several times. I am always very leery of OPSEC on this issue and don't want to step over any lines.

The grip issue you highlighted already. The only thing I would add is: why go against the natural ergonomics of your own body? Were that the penultimate technique, you would see all the high-level shooters using it. Sometimes training techniques and tips (and rifle platform endorsements) stem from an instructors' desire to be DIFFERENT.

The other few things I would add is the 3-person death blossom at the fatal funnel. This is bad technique anyway but now you've given the bad guys a perfect "flock shoot" for those familiar with bird hunting.


And finally, shooting into a room, and then hesitating. Any other gunmen will now be on full alert. I don't know what most agencies' policy is on this, but it's very dangerous.

I agree. I thought a lot about posting the names of the company and videos, but since they had already been made available to the public via facebook, I didn't feel like I'd be posting something they did not want posted.

I completely agree about instructors trying carve their own niche by "inventing" something. I'm not saying that's what these guys are doing, but it's something I see often. It's also why I attend so many different instructors' courses. Finding things that remain constant through all the instructors has high value, whereas something I only see or hear from only one instructor may not.

To be honest, I don't know what my agency's policy is on it. We generally have 2 scenarios to work with. The first is the typical 2 man clearing of a building for a burglary call or what not. Yes, sometimes we have access to more manpower, but most times there are just 2 of us clearing. It's typically very slow and methodical with unnecessary risks taken because of lack of manpower.

The other side of that are the specialty units like SWAT that have more specialized weapons and training, and especially manpower. Sometimes they move slow and methodical, but more often than not, they have to move much more quickly to preserve life, evidence, etc.
4/23/13 5:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
effinggoof
73 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/18/03
Posts: 12171
I am very uncomforatble tyring to judge an instructor, school or system based on a video clip where I have no idea of the context.

But...

That "pronated grip" makes it look like she is planning on giving her rifle a blowjob.
4/23/13 6:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3195
effinggoof - I am very uncomforatble tyring to judge an instructor, school or system based on a video clip where I have no idea of the context.

But...

That "pronated grip" makes it look like she is planning on giving her rifle a blowjob.

I understand where you are coming from. I, on the other hand, make snap judgments when I see stuff like that.

Anything I see immediately in training that raises a huge red flag, generally turns me off to whatever else they are putting out.

I forgot to add earlier: If there's an SF guy teaching with them, he's National Guard, with all the connotations.
4/23/13 6:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
effinggoof
73 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/18/03
Posts: 12172
Jedburgh1 - 
effinggoof - I am very uncomforatble tyring to judge an instructor, school or system based on a video clip where I have no idea of the context.

But...

That "pronated grip" makes it look like she is planning on giving her rifle a blowjob.

I understand where you are coming from. I, on the other hand, make snap judgments when I see stuff like that.

Anything I see immediately in training that raises a huge red flag, generally turns me off to whatever else they are putting out.

I forgot to add earlier: If there's an SF guy teaching with them, he's National Guard, with all the connotations.

My lane is much narrower than your lane, and that's something that I am keenly aware of.

Particularly when I see a video of what appears to be cops doing an active shooter sim drill in a school...I don't know if that's the instructors doing what they think is a perfect demo, or students undergoing a learning experience.

Is that wacky AR hold (and odd setup) the fault of the trainers, or is it the fault of her dept, or is she just a fuck up? Fucked if I know.

But she still looks like she is planning on blowing the AR.









4/23/13 6:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Owen Gregg
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3651
Jedburgh1 - 
effinggoof - I am very uncomforatble tyring to judge an instructor, school or system based on a video clip where I have no idea of the context.

But...

That "pronated grip" makes it look like she is planning on giving her rifle a blowjob.

I understand where you are coming from. I, on the other hand, make snap judgments when I see stuff like that.

Anything I see immediately in training that raises a huge red flag, generally turns me off to whatever else they are putting out.

I forgot to add earlier: If there's an SF guy teaching with them, he's National Guard, with all the connotations.

Jed and effinggoof, I understand both your points of view and will say this: You guys have the experience and skill to judge something more quickly and effectively than I do. That being said, I'm a person that has to try a lot of stuff in order to find out what works best for me.

Going back to Paul Howe, had I judged him based on his videos, the information would have still been great, but the videos also do not do him justice as a person. It was an entirely different and much more positive experience learning from him.

Even Paul will tell you he took a lot of training classes early in his career; he even shot USPSA competitions for a couple years. What he personally took away from each class was relatively miniscule, not because it didn't work, but because it didn't work for him and his mission. If a technique or piece of gear didn't work while he was in full kit or within the conditions of his mission, he left it behind.

Paul has moved on to a point where he doesn't advocate competition shooting, but does admit it benefited him as far as firearms training. Here's his own post on the matter:

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/ar-style-rifles/reality-check-with-paul-howe/

As far as the shooters in the video, I'm about 99% certain they are students.

If it sounds like I'm defending these guys, it's probably because I feel a little guilty about being the guy that outed a video with that damn pronated grip.

4/23/13 7:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jedburgh1
623 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3196
I would wager that if a training company releases a video of techniques on their facebook page, it carries their stamp of approval for being 100% correct, in their eyes.

Owen, you've nothing to defend. You didn't specifically endorse them. You just mentioned them, and I brought up their odd techniques.

Your learning is actually much more intelligent than mine, you seek knowledge where it's available.

I am a lot more narrow-minded, and maybe someday I'll miss some good techniques because of it. A lot of it right now has to do with time available to pursue outside training, of which I have very little. Your insight on these various instructors is a great boon to this thread.

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.