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OtherGround Forums >> Bravo45 Gunfighting Discussion Thread


2/17/13 11:42 PM
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osaewaza
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bravo45 - Yes you are right.

Our training with Michigan Highway was ad hoc. They were at the right place at the right time.

Our CIF company has trained with BORTAC, under the table.

A lot of it boils down to media scrutiny and big-ass headlines

"PODUNK COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT TRAINS WITH SPECIAL FORCES"

The big brains at JAG feel like this is a bad idea. No one asks me for my opinion; I am all about helping some undertrained cop survive a gunfight and go home at the end of the shift.

^^this.going for the big headlines

in like DEC 2001,(before the SLC olympics)UTARNG 19SFGA was helping train local LEO and security elements.a local paper reported names of some of the operators and that they were probably getting ready to deploy to afghanistan lol.

im thinking it was the desseret paper.
2/17/13 11:51 PM
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Stuart Scott's Eyeball
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Ahren_nhb -
bravo45 - 
Ahren_nhb - 

Bravo, Thanks for the awesome thread and sharing your knowledge!

Mind giving us your philosophy on optics for a carbine?

I mostly am a casual 3-gunner and hog hunter.

Thanks again!


I'm glad you asked this. I'm going to do an optics installment probably tomorrow, but for today I'll say this:

I am a huge proponent of EOTechs because I do a lot of weird shooting from odd places, with gas mask on, NODs etc. I love the concept of a 'see it, shoot it' reticle.

I also shoot red dots and find that to be a very acceptable platform for beginner to intermediate shooters. The Aimpoint T1 is one of the best sights on the market right now.

But for 3-gun and hunting? Can't go wrong with a ballistically matched reticle on a 1-4x power platform like the Schmidt and Bender (if you're a rich man) or the Nikon M-223 (if you're cheap like me)

Thanks for the response!

I have a Primary arms H-1 knock off that I use on my 22 for steel challenge. I see other guys come out w/ knock off Eotechs and I question how much faster I would be with the larger reticle.

For my 3 gun/ hog gun I just picked up one of these Leatherwood Hi-Lux CMR for AK47 (the gun is a 300BLK).

I have yet to shoot it to zero it, much less a match, but the glass seems real clear for the price. The reticle is a little busy, but it is supposed to help when shooting supers and subs.

I too am interested in what bravo thinks of the Primary Arms microdot as I recently installed one on my latest AR build. Phone Post
2/17/13 11:52 PM
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Mr.Negative
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great thread. we need more of these and less of, well, everything else on on the OG.

thank you!

2/17/13 11:55 PM
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bravo45
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awilson82 - 
bravo45 -
awilson82 -  Bravo, any specific exercises u recommend that help with shooting in general and shooting on the move? I've noticed that as I've been learning more about shooting and running the gun properly etc that when trying to maintain proper form for long strings of fire I start to get fatigued.

Also why the long ass flash hider on the M4 you posted early in the thread? To meet 16" (I assume its a civilian gun)? Phone Post

Bring the gun to your head, not your head to the gun. How long a string of fire are you running in drills?

Also yes please disregard the silly long flash hider, I first ordered that upper when I was a moron college kid, and have since adapted it to a real fighting carbine. It's loud as fuck and I don't like that much, but I am a man of many hobbies and also very cheap.
It varies. From a long 3gun stage of a couple minutes of moving, shooting, reloading to longer periods of off hand shooting to doing something like shooting 15 rds prone - mag change - 15 rds kneeling - mag change - 5 rds standing - 10 rds while moving forward - transition to pistol - 10 rds - mag change - 10 rds.

Normally I start to feel some muscle fatigue and its harder too keep the gun steady when I get near the end of a longer string of fire when shooting off hand.

No worries bro I just wondered if there was some tactical reason for it lol. Yeah this ain't a cheap hobby. While we're on the subject what are your thoughts about muzzle breaks, comps, flash hiders? Phone Post

I get it too. Try hanging your sling higher up on your shoulder, and really cranking the gun in tight.
2/17/13 11:55 PM
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bravo45
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SSE, primary arms makes decent knockoffs you should be fine.
2/17/13 11:56 PM
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bravo45
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Mr.Negative - 

great thread. we need more of these and less of, well, everything else on on the OG.

thank you!


I agree. Lots of man skills to be learned here on the OG, if you can read between the lines.

Usually too many butthurt faggots, hurting each others butts. Or retarded spins.
2/18/13 12:06 AM
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Stuart Scott's Eyeball
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bravo45 - SSE, primary arms makes decent knockoffs you should be fine.
Good deal thanks for the input and great thread. Phone Post
2/18/13 12:06 AM
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DukeIsh
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Link to full version of bio. My curiosity is piqued. Phone Post
2/18/13 12:11 AM
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awilson82
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bravo45 -
awilson82 - 
bravo45 -
awilson82 -  Bravo, any specific exercises u recommend that help with shooting in general and shooting on the move? I've noticed that as I've been learning more about shooting and running the gun properly etc that when trying to maintain proper form for long strings of fire I start to get fatigued.

Also why the long ass flash hider on the M4 you posted early in the thread? To meet 16" (I assume its a civilian gun)? Phone Post

Bring the gun to your head, not your head to the gun. How long a string of fire are you running in drills?

Also yes please disregard the silly long flash hider, I first ordered that upper when I was a moron college kid, and have since adapted it to a real fighting carbine. It's loud as fuck and I don't like that much, but I am a man of many hobbies and also very cheap.
It varies. From a long 3gun stage of a couple minutes of moving, shooting, reloading to longer periods of off hand shooting to doing something like shooting 15 rds prone - mag change - 15 rds kneeling - mag change - 5 rds standing - 10 rds while moving forward - transition to pistol - 10 rds - mag change - 10 rds.

Normally I start to feel some muscle fatigue and its harder too keep the gun steady when I get near the end of a longer string of fire when shooting off hand.

No worries bro I just wondered if there was some tactical reason for it lol. Yeah this ain't a cheap hobby. While we're on the subject what are your thoughts about muzzle breaks, comps, flash hiders? Phone Post

I get it too. Try hanging your sling higher up on your shoulder, and really cranking the gun in tight.
Right on will do It's not too terrible with my AR but worse on my roller lock rifle n AK n I shot a buddy's FAL with some kind of funky british optic the other day and that thing wore me out and I couldnt hit shit with it (was sighted in for him though and he's left handed / right eye dominant). Phone Post
2/18/13 12:14 AM
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Stuart Scott's Eyeball
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I know this thread so far is M4 type rifle specific because of the nature of your work.

In your deployments or even in training are you ever in a position to use the AK platform? If so I'd love to hear some specifics as far as gear and training methods you've used.

I like the AR but I'm in love with the AK, thus the reason for asking. Phone Post
2/18/13 12:19 AM
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bravo45
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DukeIsh - Link to full version of bio. My curiosity is piqued. Phone Post
Feel free to refer to my other thread Phone Post
2/18/13 12:20 AM
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bravo45
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I'll answer the rest tomorrow thanks for visiting guys. Phone Post
2/18/13 12:55 AM
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ThEUniT
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In Phone Post
2/18/13 1:11 AM
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Keep if professional
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I didn't realize what a potential can of worms CQB training for civilians was. Thanks for the responses bravo45. I'd vote you up if I could.
2/18/13 2:10 AM
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williepep
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bravo45 - 
ChipW - 
ChipW - Bravo45, what do you think of frank proctors sling. It's on his website, wayofthegun.com . It's adjustable like the vtac but simple, no metal parts and light weight. Phone Post
Here
http://www.wayofthegun.us/ Phone Post

Frank's sling appears to pass the common sense test.

Of course, with a background like that I will be biased, naturally.

FWIW, I have heard good things about this fellow's (Frank) classes.

-----------------------------------

Catching up on this thread, very good read.


Was about to purchase a couple of slings, and could not decide on the attachments, thread has definitely helped.
2/18/13 3:55 AM
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GrandInquisitor
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ttt for reading later.

Very interesting topic.
2/18/13 6:57 AM
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Gforce
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bravo45 - Ahren I stand behind a lot of knockoffs in terms of quality however:

No EOTech knock off is a true holographic sight like the EOTech, they are just red dots with EOTech reticles. EOTech is one area where I won't skimp on price. How many times can I say EOTech in one post?


That Leatherwood scope appears to be exactly what you need. Best of luck and give us a range report!

You've got me ready to buy one to test out for a bit (battery life is the huge concern). Regrettably, they are unobtainium right now--most places quoting 45 day lead time.
2/18/13 7:15 AM
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DocTitus
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Sub Phone Post
2/18/13 7:17 AM
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phydeau
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Sagiv Lapkin - 

It's think that it's a user-preference issue and your mileage may vary, but I really dislike VGs even when standing up and shooting on the move.


ditto
2/18/13 8:00 AM
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Ahren_nhb
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Gforce - 
bravo45 - Ahren I stand behind a lot of knockoffs in terms of quality however:

No EOTech knock off is a true holographic sight like the EOTech, they are just red dots with EOTech reticles. EOTech is one area where I won't skimp on price. How many times can I say EOTech in one post?


That Leatherwood scope appears to be exactly what you need. Best of luck and give us a range report!

You've got me ready to buy one to test out for a bit (battery life is the huge concern). Regrettably, they are unobtainium right now--most places quoting 45 day lead time.

The EOTechs, or Leatherwood?

2/18/13 9:19 AM
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paw
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IN

2/18/13 9:22 AM
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MarsMan
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Keep if professional - I didn't realize what a potential can of worms CQB training for civilians was. Thanks for the responses bravo45. I'd vote you up if I could.

FWIW, I took a shooting course (from a private institution) that had a "shoot house module" (yeah..I know...) a couple of years before I joined LE.

Even though I didn´t learn anything "wrong", the whole thing was rushed and incomplete ...at the time I thought it was great, but years later, when I got real training, I realized how much was missed (and how I had a false sense of confidence that could get me in trouble).

I feel like CQB is just like MMA or BJJ, in which there are layers of complexity and that you have to learn and drill a lot at each one (and keep drilling on and on) before you can move into another stage - just think how much stuff you have to cover to make a whole team of people get into a structure, shooting, shouting and blowing shit up in a "safe" manner :).

 

2/18/13 9:42 AM
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bravo45
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Billy Yank -  Re: the single point sling.

I use one, and I work with dozens of people (very skilled shooters) that use them, and none of us have ever stuck our head and arm though the loop as shown in your example. Phone Post

I'm having trouble picturing how you route your sling.

Keep in mind that picture is not a true single point, I couldn't find mine, so I rigged one up for the picture.
2/18/13 9:44 AM
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Jack_Burton
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I didn't read everything, but everything I did read was 100% correct. Peer reviewed - peer approved.

I'd add a couple little things to consider, they may have been discussed and missed them.

On your plate carrier - nothing can placed on the shoulder that obstructs the butt of your rifle from coming into the same point of contact every single time you mount the gun - if you dont mount correctly and consistently, you get a shitty cheek weld. No flexi cuffs. No tourniquets. no comm gear. I saw pictures of MARSOC the other day and the tourniquets on each shoulder and the guy in the picture could barely get a decent cheek weld.


The shooting and training industry is a wild wild place, where the key to surviving is getting contracts for training for large federal entities. My dad who was primarily a tactical shooting instructor, who just happened to do a lot of hunting, including as a professional hunter in Africa. He ended up getting many contracts with Division of Wildlife places, Bureau of Land Management, and others like that. Grizzly bears eating park rangers made some people realize if you cant shoot in those situations you are going to die. So they paid for training. He bounced between that and teaching at Gunsite for many years. So are there many ways to skin a cat.

The government is finally coming around to understanding a triangle concept related to security, like the speed - power - accuracy triangle. Security requires equal parts physical security - procedural security and technical security. You already know all of the physical security stuff, and much of procedural stuff. If you add technical / IT security - you have all three and you have an excellent chance of landing a cushy ass government job.

I look forward to shooting with you when you get up and running.

2/18/13 9:46 AM
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bravo45
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Stuart Scott's Eyeball -  I know this thread so far is M4 type rifle specific because of the nature of your work.

In your deployments or even in training are you ever in a position to use the AK platform? If so I'd love to hear some specifics as far as gear and training methods you've used.

I like the AR but I'm in love with the AK, thus the reason for asking. Phone Post

I have only ever used the AK in its most basic form.

I would probably check out a scout-type rail set up with a red-dot for those.

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