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5/2/13 9:54 PM
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Jedburgh1
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sreiter - "The theory loses credibility as targets get smaller, though (from what I read). Reading anecdotes on the web about top shooters, it seems apparent that point shooting may indeed have merit with a man sized target at reasonably close distances. And it’s a given that there will always be some type of situation where using the sights isn’t possible. "


I just want to throw this out as food for thought.

Supposed you're in a crowd mall and you see this smoking hott chick 25-50 yards away. And say she has "juicy" across her ass. You can point your finger right to it, and it'll be dead on. Not only that, but if you were with a buddy, just by you pointing, he'll zero right in on where you point.

There has got to be something to it... i don tknow what, or how to harness that natural ability, but we all can point with extreme accuaracy

I'm not a proponent of not aiming outside of contact distance, except in extreme circumstances, usually which are CQB related.

So I would say that there is a difference between pointing with your finger, and effective managing a controlled explosion in your hand; which is what shooting a pistol is.
5/2/13 10:19 PM
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sreiter
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i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger
5/2/13 10:21 PM
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sreiter
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^ then its a question of grip to control the explosion....

aim is not a function recoil mangement
5/2/13 10:51 PM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - 
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger

Question:

How the fuck do you know that you are "dead on" when pointing at the girl's ass? Does a laser shoot out of your finger and confirm that you were indeed pointing right at her ass?

Or are you just assuming that you were dead on?

Because I don't think it's possible to know for sure that you were dead on pointing your finger across the room at something.
5/3/13 12:19 AM
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sreiter
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try it - i have

point at something, then walk towards it following your finger

forward to 1:15... how is he able to point and make hits?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7HN7THecwg

or these guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rclYaXUh3c0
5/3/13 12:20 AM
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IP
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sreiter - 
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger

Maybe you could tape a laser pointer to your finger and make an experiment out of it by going to the mall. See if the red dot lands on "Juicy" the first time.

I'm sure we can collectively post your bail.

IP = Brilliant
5/3/13 12:21 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 05/03/13 12:27 AM
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or this guy(the best - 5 targets, under 1 second, point shooting) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Sy3-KKrqc
5/3/13 12:23 AM
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sreiter
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IP - 
sreiter - 
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger

Maybe you could tape a laser pointer to your finger and make an experiment out of it by going to the mall. See if the red dot lands on "Juicy" the first time.

I'm sure we can collectively post your bail.

IP = Brilliant

truely amazing that you dont think you could accurately point to something. just wow
5/3/13 12:27 AM
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IP
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sreiter - 
IP - 
sreiter - 
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger

Maybe you could tape a laser pointer to your finger and make an experiment out of it by going to the mall. See if the red dot lands on "Juicy" the first time.

I'm sure we can collectively post your bail.

IP = Brilliant

truely amazing that you dont think you could accurately point to something. just wow

I'm just messing with you, dude. All I know is I can't natural point shoot for shit. Believe it or not, in my academy they had us natural point at 15 yards. I cheated by picking up my front sight peripherally. I checked with a buddy and he admitted the same thing. Both of us said there was no way we would have made shots from that distance otherwise.

5/3/13 12:29 AM
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sreiter
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IP - 
sreiter - 
IP - 
sreiter - 
i'm not saying i agree or disagree with point shooting..only that we as humans dont need to carefully aim in order to pin point a spot by just pointing at it.


in theory, if my finger can be dead on target by just pointing it, i should be able to point a gun, as a extension of my hand, and have it be dead on target, just like my finger

Maybe you could tape a laser pointer to your finger and make an experiment out of it by going to the mall. See if the red dot lands on "Juicy" the first time.

I'm sure we can collectively post your bail.

IP = Brilliant

truely amazing that you dont think you could accurately point to something. just wow

I'm just messing with you, dude. All I know is I can't natural point shoot for shit. Believe it or not, in my academy they had us natural point at 15 yards. I cheated by picking up my front sight peripherally. I checked with a buddy and he admitted the same thing. Both of us said there was no way we would have made shots from that distance otherwise.


lol - i'm not saying i can either,,,well, not past 3 yards (drawing and firing from the hip)..just saying in theory we should be able to, and those quick draw, cowboy action guys are amazing..check out the vids i posted
5/3/13 12:38 AM
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IP
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^^^I watched and yes - hard to believe.
5/3/13 5:54 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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sreiter - try it - i have

point at something, then walk towards it following your finger

forward to 1:15... how is he able to point and make hits?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7HN7THecwg

or these guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rclYaXUh3c0

Let's see, where to begin?

First, your test is anything but scientific. From right here on my couch I can point at the left eye of my buddy 1500 miles away. How do I know I'm pointing right at it? Well I'll get on a plane, fly home, drive to his house go inside, walk toward him and sure enough when I get there I'll be pointing right at his eyeball. Honestly, if you don't see why your "walk toward it" test isn't moronic I don't think anything can help you.

As for your videos, you do realize those cowboy quick draw folks shoot blanks, right? The unburnt powder from a blank is what pops the balloons. It's almost like a little shotgun blast. That's not to say that Bob Munden and the guy in the video with 5 balloons aren't damn impressive, but it's their crazy speed that is impressive, not their accuracy. Point shooting a balloon from the hip at 10 feet with a gun loaded with just gunpowder shouldn't be your best example of point shooting's effectiveness.

It looks like the folks in the 2007 "world championships" or whatever are shooting some kind of reduced load wadcutter. And even from short range it looks like they miss those big ass steel targets quite a bit.
5/3/13 9:37 AM
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Owen Gregg
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You guys are gonna make me get my geek on here about point shooting. I totally agree with not being able to use sights at contact distance/in some CQB situations - I probably should have mentioned that. While I'm working on that, here's Taran Butler melting a plate rack in under 2 seconds shooting from the hip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXX39ChdHvE
5/3/13 10:55 AM
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sreiter
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Rhymenoceros - 
sreiter - try it - i have

point at something, then walk towards it following your finger

forward to 1:15... how is he able to point and make hits?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7HN7THecwg

or these guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rclYaXUh3c0

Let's see, where to begin?

First, your test is anything but scientific. From right here on my couch I can point at the left eye of my buddy 1500 miles away. How do I know I'm pointing right at it? Well I'll get on a plane, fly home, drive to his house go inside, walk toward him and sure enough when I get there I'll be pointing right at his eyeball. Honestly, if you don't see why your "walk toward it" test isn't moronic I don't think anything can help you.

As for your videos, you do realize those cowboy quick draw folks shoot blanks, right? The unburnt powder from a blank is what pops the balloons. It's almost like a little shotgun blast. That's not to say that Bob Munden and the guy in the video with 5 balloons aren't damn impressive, but it's their crazy speed that is impressive, not their accuracy. Point shooting a balloon from the hip at 10 feet with a gun loaded with just gunpowder shouldn't be your best example of point shooting's effectiveness.

It looks like the folks in the 2007 "world championships" or whatever are shooting some kind of reduced load wadcutter. And even from short range it looks like they miss those big ass steel targets quite a bit.

typical, uninformed, arrogant, response... you're so predictable

"From right here on my couch I can point at the left eye of my buddy 1500 miles away. How do I know I'm pointing right at it? "

but if you aimed your hand gun, you'd be dead on, rt?

Nice to know empirical, observable evidence "isn't scientific"

"As for your videos, you do realize those cowboy quick draw folks shoot blanks, right?"

BBBWWWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

they shoot wax bullets from 7 yards. fucking idiot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAeTF4l2pDs
skip to 1:29 for explaination of bullets

skip to 0:55 for explanation of distance

asshat
5/3/13 11:03 AM
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sreiter
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"It looks like the folks in the 2007 "world championships" or whatever are shooting some kind of reduced load wadcutter. And even from short range it looks like they miss those big ass steel targets quite a bit."

yeah,because missing is how the tell time, and determine winners
targets are 2ft circle...hmmm 2ft, thats about as big as a ipsc target...and are pressure sensitive and wire to a timer...thats how time is keep and scores judged.

and of you watch, most hits are almost dead center

the reason for reduced load is so they can hold competitions anywhere, and you can practice anywhere without. even in your basement.

So are you trying to say that reduced loads are why they can point and shoot and be on target?

Well my finger doesnt even have a round, so by your logic, my finger pointing should be the most accurate of all

go away troll
5/3/13 11:05 AM
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sreiter
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Owen Gregg - You guys are gonna make me get my geek on here about point shooting. I totally agree with not being able to use sights at contact distance/in some CQB situations - I probably should have mentioned that. While I'm working on that, here's Taran Butler melting a plate rack in under 2 seconds shooting from the hip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXX39ChdHvE

rhym -i guess this guys is knocking over steel with powder blast too
5/3/13 11:08 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 05/03/13 11:08 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tca3wZ7z4m8

same guy claims he cant be as fast when he aims


SORRY JED /HIJACK...
5/3/13 11:18 AM
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tyronehernandez
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from my experience "point shooting" is a function of a proper draw/presentation including sight picture and sight alignment repeated to the point that you create muscle memory so that your draw will "automatically" align your sights with what you are looking at regardless of whether you are looking at the sights or not (in a phrase, NPOI). Basically with a perfect presentation the sights really just confirm aim. I haven't tested this with multiple targets or with more than two shots and this is all pertaining to only about 5 yards and in.

For me sightless fire is faster but its is no way to take a precision shot. I get "acceptable" accuracy out to about 5 yards (I can keep it on an 8 inch pie plate) but beyond that even keeping the rounds in center mass is difficult. I'm sure better shooters would have better results.

Another possible problem with this might be that once you start shooting while focusing on the target, which is a much more natural act than focusing on the FS, you run the risk of creating "training scars" and reverting to nature under stress or even fatigue. Probably better to always use the sights in training.

In "Inside Delta Force" Haney describes Delta's shooting style as "point shooting", focusing on the target only. He claims there were making extreme precision shots at lightning speed on multiple targets and used live Delta members as stand-in hostages in live fire hostage rescue drills in their shoot houses. He claimed that they point shot targets at speed that were less than an inch from their fellow Deltas' heads. I guess naturally gifted shooters with unlimited budgets and training time are capable of amazing things (and maybe some hyperbole too)?

5/3/13 12:30 PM
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Jedburgh1
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Haney is confused in his terms, I think and most definitely outdated.

I can guarantee no one is teaching point shooting at the highest levels of special operations units.

It becomes a problem of paralysis by analysis; say I've trained point shooting extensively at 5 yards, and find myself in a gunfight at 7 yards. Now I've created a decision making process, however minute, that gives me an engagement stumbling block. Do I aim? What distance am I at? Can I hit from here?

When it comes time to skin that smoke wagon, I want to protect my own life and end someone else's as smoothly and efficiently as possible. Phone Post 3.0
5/3/13 12:37 PM
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Ahren_nhb
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sreiter, quit being a blight on this thread.

5/3/13 1:00 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 05/03/13 1:40 PM
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.
5/3/13 1:41 PM
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sreiter
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Ahren_nhb - 

sreiter, quit being a blight on this thread.


ahren - blow me.

show me exactly where i'm NOT providing accurate/relevant information

oh, and since you want to come at me, judging by your record, does the "_NHB" stand for never hits back?
5/3/13 2:01 PM
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tyronehernandez
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"Haney is confused in his terms, I think and most definitely outdated.

I can guarantee no one is teaching point shooting at the highest levels of special operations units. "

I thought it sounded kind of far fetched too but if you read the book he clearly describes point shooting, though he calls it "instinctive fire". He describes focusing on the front sight as for "target shooting" and says that for "close in gun fights" you have to look at what you are shooting. He compares it to "wing shooting" with a shotgun and advocates "slapping" the trigger rather than "smoothly squeezing" it. He goes on to say so many things that fly in the face of what is considered accepted shooting doctrine these days I could hardly believe what I was reading. Again, I'm just relating what he wrote.

I have however, always thought that focusing on the front sight was such an unnatural act considering that for every other gross or fine motor skill we focus on the target/object as in either picking up or throwing an object. We've evolved to focus on a threat (and our eyes instinctually follow movement) to the point of tunnel vision and I've always felt that under heavy stress of a life threatening gun fight it would be very hard not to revert to nature and look at the threat instead of the FS.

Haney says that this is what accounts for such an abysmal hit ratio in LEO shootings - that they train looking at the FS and then under the stress of a real gun fight revert to nature and focus on the target.

This is also why I found it a bit far fetched to "count rounds" in a real gun fight. I would think that under such duress you would go into a kind of "auto pilot" and counting rounds is more of a conscious act which I think you would probably forget to do or do incorrectly under so much stress. I would think that your survival instinct would naturally eliminate anything not related to the primary focus of eliminating the target. Adrenaline does what it does.

I've never been in a gun fight nor am I qualified to question what you or he writes but I think its pretty interesting to read his thoughts on shooting and how they trained.

If anyone has the book, it all starts on page 94.
5/3/13 2:22 PM
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IP
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"Haney says that this is what accounts for such an abysmal hit ratio in LEO shootings - that they train looking at the FS and then under the stress of a real gun fight revert to nature and focus on the target."

I realize this was written a long time ago, but I still believe it to be true.
5/3/13 2:36 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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IP - Can someone explain to me why certain people excel at slow fire precision pistol shooting -while performing poorly at shooting-on-the-move, when others display the opposite?

I dunno about pistol, but here is how I see rifle.....I was never very good at bullseye competition/precision due to the repetitiveness. My mind works best when I'm allowed to flow-with-the-go....thsat's my excuse :p I shoot like I do BJJ, etc, I have no idea what I'm doing or where I'm going I kinda find my path depending on where I'm at and what is going on. For a short period of time I can force myself, but eventually nature kicks in and I start winging-it. Which makes for decent results, but not excellent result.....it is however faster and more adaptable IMO.

IMO, the best bullseye and precision shooters are mentally "slow" and repetitive/consistent. Slow in the sense they don't get rushed in things they do so they have a much better consistency in their flow of setting up a shot. They're very meticulous. I would suppose this is similar for pistol guys

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