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BJJGround Forum >> Blacks/Browns:dealing with athletic blues/purples?


3/6/13 3:45 PM
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Hywel Teague
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Take them as far away from their game as possible, give them shit to deal with they're not used to. Frustrate them with positions, posture and grips then capitalise on their mistakes.
3/6/13 4:08 PM
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cumprido1
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Setups and transitions. You just have to keep those guys guessing / off balance as much as possible.

Any strong guy you let get into domina t positions ir scrambles will be a problem to deal with. Phone Post
3/6/13 4:18 PM
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ElPulpo
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I'm approaching thirty with a lot of bad injuries throughout my life that have essentially turned me into an old man style practitioner.

The younger more aggro training partners go apeshit on me, so I just relax. I'm working on developing the highest pressure game possible in terms of weight distribution. I've found that minimizing the amount of movement I have to utilize, and the amount that my training partner can move is more beneficial to a tortoise like me. This is mostly used in my guard passing game.

Patience is another key virtue. I am not eager to escape at the wrong time, or attack needlessly. I'f I'm defending well, I just wait for my training partner to inevitably get to aggressive and expose an escape. On the other hand, I attain a dominant position (Mount, Closed Guard, Back and Kesa Gatame are my preferred positions) and secure the position as tightly as possible. If I can use pressure to fatigue my partner I will, then begin my attack. Otherwise, I make a valuable grip that will inspire a PREDICTABLE movement on the part of my partner when the opportunity presents itself. There is never a reason to rush.

Not caring about tapping my partner is valuable. This takes all of the pressure off. If I submit him, great. If I don't, great. Usually, I have remained safe, or dominated positionally which is more true to the core of the philosophy, theory and principles of BJJ than wasting my energy on ruthless assault.

Finally, avoid the flavor of the week techniques. The old fashioned stuff works wonders when applied with proper form and timing. They are the foundations of BJJ technique for a reason.

We are in this shit for the long haul. Don't make a big deal out of some young punk who will eventually succumb to the perils of age the same as the rest of us.
3/6/13 4:31 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Edited: 03/07/13 2:31 AM
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I let position be my power.
3/6/13 4:42 PM
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rexkwondo79
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Someone already nailed it. It's all about the setups and what you do in transition. In other words, the technique (of your setups).

I have seen it time and time again. A small 155 lb black belt can still work his way around a 225+ lb ATHLETIC brown/purple belt. Only if his setups are there. Otherwise you will get SMASHED and passed like it's nothing, as expected.
3/6/13 8:48 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Gentlemen... Went to class tonight and told myself not to let these whippersnappers bring me down. I did "better" and had a good time. Tired as all get out but definitely feeling a bit beat up. Not sure how to take this...
3/6/13 10:01 PM
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ogjune
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I invested a substantial amount of time (disproportionately so) on my spider/open guard from white to purple At black belt its what saves me from the athletic freaks you're talking about.
3/6/13 10:25 PM
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JSho
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Rick Screeton - 

Thank god for the gi   :)


this...
3/6/13 10:49 PM
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SlapUsilly
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I try the old-school gracie approach to defend and bait into a submission when it shows up or they gas out.. that's about all I can do.
3/6/13 11:32 PM
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cprevost
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Make sure they are working harder than you. They have a bigger gas tank. Focus on posture above all else. Posture takes less energy to maintain and a lot of energy to break down. Win the breathing battle. They guy who is breathing harder is loosing regardless of position. Make all your moves deliberate. Don't waste energy trying to muscle or out hustle them. Be patient. Enjoy the roll! Nothing like working against a young strong wrestler to test your game. I'm a 45 year old black belt and have a hell of a time with a young white belt. He's a special forces guy with extensive college wrestling. He's 20 years younger, 40 pounds heavier and 2x as strong. If I survive at all I smile because it's all jiu jitsu.
3/7/13 12:17 AM
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kying418
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Thank god I have my own school now. Anytime someone is more athletic, lower belt, and can tap me out, I simply kick them out of my school.

Most of my students are 120lbs guys and girls now.
3/7/13 12:19 AM
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bjh13
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zeerebel - GJJ philosophy has to be taken with grain of salt. When striking are employed Keep it playful will get you smashed.

Keeping it playful doesn't mean what you think it does. Also, you should note that the Gracie Academy actually trains jiu-jitsu with striking, unlike most places.
3/7/13 12:39 AM
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Marion Cobretti
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Edited: 03/07/13 12:48 AM
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30 year old Brown belt here.. I dont give them any grips, i tend to attack aggressive individuals, it throws them off.. I usually put them on their back and increase the pressure.. Athletic people tend to be top players and once on their backs their all the same..



3/7/13 1:02 AM
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Moke
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Edited: 03/07/13 1:07 AM
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Much of the above...

From the bottom, relax, survive and ride it out until you find your opportunity, but also keep in mind that if it were street, are you safe from punches too?

From top I find the most important thing against fast athletic flexible etc guys is to play a very low and TIGHT controlling game. Don't give them an INCH to squirm or get their hips going or bring their legs onto the scene. Play low, smash tight and control. Be a huge wet blanket of a python looking for submissions. Staple legs and hips when possible when passing and smash. Use a genuine cranking crossface. Keep thinking, "You ain't going ANYWHERE motherfucker".

As far as speed, don't really throw in the towel too much there. Remember, speed can come in the form of youth and power, but being loose and relaxed is where true speed comes from. So stay relaxed but alert.

3/7/13 1:21 AM
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drx604
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CodeGeek - I'm not a brown, but I've been a purple for a long time, and I'm getting up there in years. Young, strong, athletic guys are tough to deal with, and that's just how it is. I don't have the gas tank and speed to match that, as much as I've tried over the years. I've finally accepted that being a --insert belt color-- doesn't mean always beating a lower belt. These days I try to just have fun and flow with whatever energy my partner brings.
That's me in a nutshell Phone Post
3/7/13 4:02 AM
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Steve_73
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zeerebel - I am 41 years old. 5'3" and 145 lbs and have full time job. I am purple belt 1 stripe and 2nd degree in Judo.

I teach an average of 12 hours a week. I am recovering from tear rotator cuff.

So my students kick my butt all the time. I rolled with young athletic MMA guys just to gauge where they are. I like to pick students who are closer to my sizes so that I can get up in the morning.

There are days where I just don't want to be at the gym. But there is no one to help me the run the class. So I just grind it out. I know I am more technical than my students but at the end of the day fighting is fighting.

I coin a phrase that help keep things in perspective. Combat Sports is Athletic Movement with Violent Intention.

Good post. I'm 39 and about your size and a purple belt.

I've always thought belts are over-rated. I have wrestled blacks that didn't cause me any drama when I was a blue belt and whites now that give me hell now.
3/7/13 4:23 AM
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Tatami Strangler
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Mid 30s, well past my prime, social grappler, brown belt. I stay the fuck away from no-gi and only ever spar in the kimono. My sticky guard is my saviour and I try an force the error from there and sweep or just keep them tangled up. If some meathead purple belt manages to pass, I'm in trouble. Phone Post
3/7/13 4:33 AM
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Moke
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Edited: 03/07/13 4:33 AM
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Steve_73 - 
zeerebel - I am 41 years old. 5'3" and 145 lbs and have full time job. I am purple belt 1 stripe and 2nd degree in Judo.

I teach an average of 12 hours a week. I am recovering from tear rotator cuff.

So my students kick my butt all the time. I rolled with young athletic MMA guys just to gauge where they are. I like to pick students who are closer to my sizes so that I can get up in the morning.

There are days where I just don't want to be at the gym. But there is no one to help me the run the class. So I just grind it out. I know I am more technical than my students but at the end of the day fighting is fighting.

I coin a phrase that help keep things in perspective. Combat Sports is Athletic Movement with Violent Intention.

Good post. I'm 39 and about your size and a purple belt.

I've always thought belts are over-rated. I have wrestled blacks that didn't cause me any drama when I was a blue belt and whites now that give me hell now.


Steve, no offense, but I've found that people who say, "belts don't matter", generally say what you are saying. But think about this:

The reason it's easier against higher belts and super technical guys is BECAUSE their technique is so good...which makes it smooth and predictable. They do what they are SUPPOSED to be doing. Lower belts are rougher, awkward, and use a lot of power to make up for their lack of technique.

In the end, your jiu jitsu has to be effective in a fight. Now what if you find yourself in a fight with a guy who is not a complete fish and he brings great balance and power on the ground, yet is awkward as fuck and doesn't move like he's, "supposed to"?

You need to be able to control him and close the deal. You need to suck it up and find out why you're having a hard time with the lower belts and work on your game until that stops being a problem.

3/7/13 4:44 AM
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cdog1955
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Great thread!

I defend as intelligently as possible (good posture as Cprevost said), then try to capitalize on their mistakes, which usually comes in the form of poor weight distribution and space given.

I have really been experimenting with arm entanglements from the bottom, it really slows down or literally stops people on top. They are trying to figure out how to free up their limbs so they can attack or progress to a better controlling pin, that's where they give that space or distribute their weight wrong.
3/7/13 5:09 AM
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NicolasExitBJJ
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RPBJJ - slow them down and start using some serious technique.

Im a brown belt, but Im 225 and pretty athletic but at almost 36 Im slowing down man. So Im working the basics even more than when I was a white belt. Eventually the fancy shit stops working and you better have some good basic to fall back on.

same age and weight here, I just put a lot of pressure and try to work my basics. these new guys if I give them an inch of room it's all berimbolo lightning fast sweeps and guard passes. guess I'm kinda fortunate to be one of the larger guys in class cuz I'm sure as hell not beating anybody in the speed department anymore. but I can still crush the bejesus out of anybody :)
3/7/13 5:38 AM
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Zero1
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I´am 35 and a blackbelt. Here are some points:

1. Be in shape. You don´t have to be a monster but you should have a decent level of strength and endurance just for the case things doesn´t go the easy way.

2. Pressure. You need to be able to use your weight in a effective way to tire your opponent out if you are on top position. Pressure doesn´t require much energy and you can take away your opponents energy.

3. Combinations and Flow. You should be able to go from one to another move to outgrapple your opponent. Don´t try to outmsucle him and force submissions. Just switch until you get some good chance

4. Internal structure. In my opinion the most important thing. The ability to use your body as a whole without being tensed or to relaxed. It is a combination of structure, awarness and internal muscle control. Takes a while to get it but will work without effort.

5. Understand breathing. The right breathing can help you to elevate you game up to 50%. Most people can´t breath freely so you will have an advantage over them.

6. Don´t rush. Take your time and don´t force things. Use chances when they come.

7. Don´t put yourself in position that require extrem flexibility or a bent spine or twistet hip. These postures are always requiering power to work from and that can be difficult.

Take care
Björn
3/7/13 8:23 AM
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dojo stormer
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yes there has been a lot more athletic crossfit type guys training.

it's insanely hard to roll with guys who outweigh you by 20kg of pure muscle, not just 20kg of weight.

3/7/13 8:29 AM
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Hywel Teague
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kying418 - Thank god I have my own school now. Anytime someone is more athletic, lower belt, and can tap me out, I simply kick them out of my school.

Most of my students are 120lbs guys and girls now.
Taking lessons from GM Shen? Phone Post
3/7/13 8:31 AM
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Jessy30
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Bjorn I love what you said except the last...i love inverted, berimbolo, tornado, I love to bait passes where they get the far side overhook on me because I have great flexibility and constantly omaplata them by slightly framing their head away and pulling my own foot to my nose...these are ESPECIALLY against athletic wrestlers. I don't find it is power at all but hip movement, timing, finess and grips. Do you agree? Phone Post
3/7/13 8:41 AM
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The Gimp
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Edited: 03/08/13 9:16 PM
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Entangling positions that slow the game down should help. Here are a few:

- leg lasso
- closed guard
- shins-in-biceps spider guard
- reverse DLR (saulo style)

Note closed guard and shins-in-biceps are both good for self-defense / MMA, so you're not sacrificing much of the art to take this approach.<br /><br />EDITED to add the reverse DLR

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