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BJJGround Forum >> Blacks/Browns:dealing with athletic blues/purples?


3/7/13 8:54 AM
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htownbjj
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I have a bit different philosophy on top than some do. Namely, I stay a bit light and nimble on top using some key controls so that I don't lose the position.

I've found that this finesse approach works better for me with really strong guys. Part of the problem is that my pressure is probably just not where it needs to be, but I find using a lot of "brute" pressure (e.g., deep crossface, tight underhook) tends to get me glued to the strong guy who then can use that connection to him to reverse me.

So if I get side control, I just make sure I block the nearside hip so he doesn't recover guard. Controlling the bottom guy's elbows helps a lot to settle him down. If he manages to get to his side facing me, I end up taking a big backstep entry to the farside and get the back.

In the cases I do use pressure, I try to bring overwhelming force. For instance, in top side control, I will use the side control crucifix (Roy Nelson style) in combination with the farside arm in the "lazyboy". In this position, I still don't try to squish the guy, but let him move a bit in a controlled way, as I look to isolate an arm (farside armbar, Americana) or neck (papercutter choke). Jeff Glover had some nice techniques on this, I think it was on a rolled up. Another example is using the Brabo grip from side control.

I think really good guys are able to add pressure through spinal deviation, e.g., the "dope mount"/"folding pass"/"Estonian pressure". This is a work in progress for me. Matt Thornton has some nice material on top control where he focuses on keeping the other guy's head tilted for spinal deviation, and I would like to get better at that. I've rolled with some really good blackbelts who managed to make me feel twisted and torqued, but the controls were so subtle I wasn't able to identify clearly what they were doing.
3/7/13 8:54 AM
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Zero1
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I love Omaplatas, but I never compromise my spine. There is no rounded spine in my Jiu Jitsu for several reasons.

For me the ability to create power isn´t the same as pure strength.

You have guys using pure strength but I belive "soft" strength should come from relaxation, posture and the ability to use the body as a whole and finding the right connection to the opponent AND to the ground....

3/7/13 9:42 AM
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Stephen Eakin
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I've rolled with an older 50s year old beast of a brown belt.

Like has been said, I could win in scrambles and sometimes submit but if I made a mistake and gave him a good position, I didn't escape often.

In bad positions he stayed relaxed and either waited out the round or my mistake in haste. Phone Post
3/7/13 9:44 AM
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BigEyedFish
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Edited: 03/07/13 9:44 AM
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Zero1 - I love Omaplatas, but I never compromise my spine. There is no rounded spine in my Jiu Jitsu for several reasons.

For me the ability to create power isn´t the same as pure strength.

You have guys using pure strength but I belive "soft" strength should come from relaxation, posture and the ability to use the body as a whole and finding the right connection to the opponent AND to the ground....


I agree with this very Rickson-esque post.

A lot of people train for a long time and never truly understand the importance of connection to the ground.
3/7/13 9:59 AM
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deepu
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JSho - 
Rick Screeton - 

Thank god for the gi   :)


this...

Yup.

Grips in the right places really slow down the young ones.

And what Zero1 said.
3/7/13 10:14 AM
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Truemanc3
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Just relax stay safe and when they make a mistake use it and never give them a chance once you are in the better position....

The athletic lower belt will use his strength and gas to overcome the better technique of the older higher rank.... this stratergy will fail if you stay safe and use your technique and timing.... but once your in a better position smash them till they bleed from the eyes :)
3/7/13 10:25 AM
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Michael Piekarski
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I'm somewhat athletic and a purple, but when I roll with someone more athletic I make sure not to play into the game.  Avoid turning it into a scramble and be very tight.  I tend to play more conservative with my position.

3/7/13 10:40 AM
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BandakaKush
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Hello I am only a blue but I would like to chime in on this if I may.

It seems to me it would be a bad idea for an older practitioner to try and match the intensity levels of the younger counterpart. You will most likely not be able to equal them in power, explosiveness, or agility. Playing a young man's game might get you injured.


3/7/13 1:09 PM
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uchimata
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Edited: 03/07/13 1:13 PM
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I'm a 43 year old 235 lbs black belt, who used to be athletic and fast, but not so much anymore.  I still have considerable strength, but endurance is the killer.  The older I get the more I find myself playing closed guard and playing a "safe" pressuring top game.  Against athletic lower belts (brown/purple), I bide my time when I'm on the bottom, and wait for the transitions. I don't try too hard for submissions  from the bottom (unless I take the back), but go for sweeps instead.  

If and when I get a top position, I play really conservative and try to preserve it.  The reality is that if it took me a long time to get to top, I may not be able to recover the position becasue I'll gas out with a really athletic guy.  My submissions are purposely limited to those that help me maintain my poistion, usually chokes (paper cutter, north south, cross-choke).  The only exception is propbably the bow and arrow, since I have a really high success rate with it.    I've found it extremely helpful in training to just allow really athletic lower belts to start in a dominant position i.e. sidemount, mount, back mount.  I then challenge myself to survive their attacks.   The gi also helps, but I still roll about 50% nogi.

3/7/13 2:27 PM
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Tarado Safado
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The Cicada - Unless you are a guy/gal with a very limiting injury with the real possibility for re-injury, you should look to ramp it up every now and then with someone who is highly athletic and motivated. The underlying reason (at least for me) for training is to learn skills that will protect me on the streets. I am not looking to score 3 pts all the time. I am looking for real life skills to use against a strong, fast, unwilling opponent. That is why I got into the martial arts arena, self defense. Guys on the streets are not just going to sit around and play 50% patty cake games when they are trying to hurt me. They are going to be moving fast and with violence. We all need a reminder of that sometimes as we get lulled into all the new age bjj point/tournament stuff. Just my take.

excellent post
3/7/13 9:31 PM
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The Gimp
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Yes your attacker on the street is going to be moving fast and with violence. But isn't that why the original tactic of BJJ is to slow down the opponent, so that a smaller, weaker opponent can deal with otherwise overwhelming force?

Thus, the tight, squeezing closed guard giving no space for attacks; Rener's recent "hug the neck and shoulder" tactic under side control; etc.
3/8/13 8:50 AM
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jonpall
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Here's a crazy idea:

Why not spend about a year increasing your strength by doing a program like Stronglifts 5x5 and THEN go back to BJJ, especially if you're rather weak physically, just to even out the game a bit?

When that is done and you're much stronger than you were, then you can use all the ideas in this thread.

Thoughts?
3/8/13 9:09 AM
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EazyG
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Edited: 03/08/13 9:13 AM
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<blockquote>kying418 - Thank god I have my own school now. Anytime someone is more athletic, lower belt, and can tap me out, I simply kick them out of my school.

Most of my students are 120lbs guys and girls now.

That is fucking Shen worthy!

But first sexually abuse them and they will get the point
3/8/13 9:25 AM
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deepu
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jonpall - Here's a crazy idea:

Why not spend about a year increasing your strength by doing a program like Stronglifts 5x5 and THEN go back to BJJ, especially if you're rather weak physically, just to even out the game a bit?

When that is done and you're much stronger than you were, then you can use all the ideas in this thread.

Thoughts?

No. I don't like strength training and the free time I have I want to spend on the mat. And what you are suggesting does not scale with age. Am I supposed to go do strength training when I'm 60 too?
3/8/13 10:46 AM
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jonpall
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Animal Mother - 
jonpall - Here's a crazy idea:

Why not spend about a year increasing your strength by doing a program like Stronglifts 5x5 and THEN go back to BJJ, especially if you're rather weak physically, just to even out the game a bit?

When that is done and you're much stronger than you were, then you can use all the ideas in this thread.

Thoughts?
Heres a crazier idea, someone will always be stronger or more athletic than you, so your "idea" is irrelevant to this thread. Phone Post

Yeah, but rolling could be a bit easier for you if you could reduce the difference in strength between you and your stronger friends a bit, right? What I'm saying is that, if the strength difference isn't THAT much, then you can tap your friend out with superior technique, but if he just STEAMROLLS you with MUCH more strength, then it becomes much harder.

Speaking on behalf of not-so-strong guys in BJJ everywhere - why not increase our strength (at least a little bit) via weight lifting, instead of focusing ONLY on BJJ technique forever and always hold a grudge against stronger grapplers?

Btw. this is coming from a totall BJJ technique lover, injured from constantly rolling with stronger guys but lifting weights to even out the score a bit ;) No need for any hate.
3/8/13 11:13 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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To the guys talking about controlling and limiting their ability to scramble, are you talking top position or bottom?

I'm thinking staying bottom is not the way to go. Stay top at all costs.
3/8/13 11:26 AM
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Setree
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I'd strongly suggest learning BJJ. Although, I understand it to be significantly more difficult to learn BJJ after you are a brown or black belt.
3/8/13 11:54 AM
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Rival School
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I think if you are worrying about this don't you have the wrong mentality already? When training in the gym who cares who beats you? An athletic purple should be dangerous to anyone he gets on the mat with. At one point strength speed and size matter. You have obviously found that point. Phone Post
3/8/13 11:56 AM
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The Gimp
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Damn a jonpall sighting. I feel like I should take a screenshot or something
3/8/13 11:56 AM
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The Gimp
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LetsTalkItOut - To the guys talking about controlling and limiting their ability to scramble, are you talking top position or bottom?

I'm thinking staying bottom is not the way to go. Stay top at all costs.

Yeah but how to get on top to begin with, that's the issue.
3/8/13 12:08 PM
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e. kaye
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The Gimp - 
LetsTalkItOut - To the guys talking about controlling and limiting their ability to scramble, are you talking top position or bottom?

I'm thinking staying bottom is not the way to go. Stay top at all costs.

Yeah but how to get on top to begin with, that's the issue.

That is the question.

Get really good at the clinch and really think it through.

In order to get an opponent down, you have a variety of choices.    

Which ones put you in a dominant position once it get to the ground and which do not?

Personally, I would never do a single leg or any "shot" that puts me under my opponent or puts my neck at risk.

I prefer Greco and Judo tech.

I also love to get the head.  If you control the head, you will get the top position.    

It is a matter of  mindset.  Train to be on top from the start and most of the time you will be, once you get the skill.

 

3/8/13 1:33 PM
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deepu
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e. kaye - 
The Gimp - 
LetsTalkItOut - To the guys talking about controlling and limiting their ability to scramble, are you talking top position or bottom?

I'm thinking staying bottom is not the way to go. Stay top at all costs.

Yeah but how to get on top to begin with, that's the issue.

That is the question.

Get really good at the clinch and really think it through.

In order to get an opponent down, you have a variety of choices.    

Which ones put you in a dominant position once it get to the ground and which do not?

Personally, I would never do a single leg or any "shot" that puts me under my opponent or puts my neck at risk.

I prefer Greco and Judo tech.

I also love to get the head.  If you control the head, you will get the top position.    

It is a matter of  mindset.  Train to be on top from the start and most of the time you will be, once you get the skill.

 


lol, I pull guard and try work a sweep. Takedowns are for the young ones :)
3/8/13 1:38 PM
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e. kaye
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Not talking takedowns.  There are other ways to get a guy down.   Footsweeps,  trips, bulldogs, etc.   Study some stand up jujitsu.   There a lot of other ways to get a guy down.

3/8/13 2:33 PM
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The Gimp
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Bulldogs are NOT a good way to get someone down on the ground you idiot. They laigs is way too short, and the drool all over the floor is dangerous and unsanitary!

Source: UGA alum
3/8/13 2:53 PM
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EazyG
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interesting thread.

As an old guy I focus more than ever on dominating the grip fight against the younger less experienced guys. If you have more experience, you probably can get your grips first on the less experienced guys and start moving ahead positionally.

Once I have my grips, it usually reduces their ability to explode and dominate with athleticism. Basically tie them up with grips/position and make them play to you. They may fight out of the grips, but if you keep re-gripping and improving position, it usually wears them down eventually - physically and mentally as they are working harder. And always be ready to transition to the top.

For example, in the guard I love the 2 on 1 (Marcelo's approach is great) which can flow into arm drags, spider guard, 1 legged X, X guard... Cover them with your hooks as much as you can. Dont give them space to move quickly.

I also find closed guard a good way to 'grip' them, especially getting a deep grip behind their collar, wrapping their gi around the neck, setting up chokes, triangles, arm bars, sweeps... spider guard also gives many ways to dominate grips and stretch them out.

Others have emphasized breaking their posture while maintaining yours and I fully agree. I think grip fighting is one of the main mechanics that enables you to break their posture and improve your position.

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