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BJJGround Forum >> Blacks/Browns:dealing with athletic blues/purples?


3/8/13 3:38 PM
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FJJ828
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47 year old BB.

These days I am more selective of who I train with and how hard I allow myself to go. A grinding war like I used to do regularly at Blue and Purple leaves me walking all bent over the next day with back and shoulder pain.

I am sure that one or a number of our champion Purples could put me in a world of hurt at competition intensity... and it wouldn't be fun.

3/9/13 4:27 AM
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Steve_73
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Moke - 
Steve_73 - 
zeerebel - I am 41 years old. 5'3" and 145 lbs and have full time job. I am purple belt 1 stripe and 2nd degree in Judo.

I teach an average of 12 hours a week. I am recovering from tear rotator cuff.

So my students kick my butt all the time. I rolled with young athletic MMA guys just to gauge where they are. I like to pick students who are closer to my sizes so that I can get up in the morning.

There are days where I just don't want to be at the gym. But there is no one to help me the run the class. So I just grind it out. I know I am more technical than my students but at the end of the day fighting is fighting.

I coin a phrase that help keep things in perspective. Combat Sports is Athletic Movement with Violent Intention.

Good post. I'm 39 and about your size and a purple belt.

I've always thought belts are over-rated. I have wrestled blacks that didn't cause me any drama when I was a blue belt and whites now that give me hell now.


Steve, no offense, but I've found that people who say, "belts don't matter", generally say what you are saying. But think about this:

The reason it's easier against higher belts and super technical guys is BECAUSE their technique is so good...which makes it smooth and predictable. They do what they are SUPPOSED to be doing. Lower belts are rougher, awkward, and use a lot of power to make up for their lack of technique.

In the end, your jiu jitsu has to be effective in a fight. Now what if you find yourself in a fight with a guy who is not a complete fish and he brings great balance and power on the ground, yet is awkward as fuck and doesn't move like he's, "supposed to"?

You need to be able to control him and close the deal. You need to suck it up and find out why you're having a hard time with the lower belts and work on your game until that stops being a problem.


I think you have my idea a little wrong. I'll give an example. Today I wrestled a bit strong white belt. I tried to arm-drag him and get to his back and then I tried to sweep him. I failed at both attempts and went to the guillotine which I got him with twice.

The guy though gave me some trouble and I wonder how I'll do against someone similar in 10 years time. So say I'm a black and this guy is a blue but I'm 50 and he is 20 and knows what he is doing. I mean he will probably win.

I don't believe it is my game that needs to improve. I think it is the misconception that belts mean you are better than someone else. Belts to me mean that you are at that level with regards to your natural talent.

I see Keenan mentioned everywhere nowadays. I bet he would destroys 99% of black-belts out there. There is a guy at my gym who is a good brown belt. I bet he would destroys 80% of black-belts out there. He is young, big, strong and athletic. He lost in comp recently to a black belt however that was in comp at his weight division.
3/9/13 4:31 AM
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Steve_73
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dojo stormer - yes there has been a lot more athletic crossfit type guys training.

it's insanely hard to roll with guys who outweigh you by 20kg of pure muscle, not just 20kg of weight.


I don't get why people don't see this.

Try 20kg of muscle with athletic ability and 1-2 years of hard training.

In every other sport this simply isn't even questioned. In basketball would you expect a high school 6 foot 6 athletic 16 year old phenom to beat my 5 foot nothing backside.

My cross-over isn't the problem.
3/9/13 4:38 AM
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Steve_73
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To add my idea on how to handle bigger guys which is all the freaken time for me.

1. Sweep.
2. Arm-drag.
3. Guillotine.
4. Use 2 & 3 to get on top.
5. Pass-guard.
6. Take your time waiting for the submission. If you get it cool - if not who cares.
7. If possible start on top from step 5. If you do this then whole athleticism/size matters a lot less.

Lastly don't let them dominate without you getting some game at the start. There are a couple of guys that I wrestle who just try to run as quickly as possible to pass my guard. They just explode right away because they know if I get some game happening I will win.
3/9/13 4:55 AM
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jonpall
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Steve_73 - 
dojo stormer - yes there has been a lot more athletic crossfit type guys training.

it's insanely hard to roll with guys who outweigh you by 20kg of pure muscle, not just 20kg of weight.


I don't get why people don't see this.

Try 20kg of muscle with athletic ability and 1-2 years of hard training.

In every other sport this simply isn't even questioned. In basketball would you expect a high school 6 foot 6 athletic 16 year old phenom to beat my 5 foot nothing backside.

My cross-over isn't the problem.

This is kind of my point. So you train only BJJ and go against guys who train BJJ but have ALSO put in a lot of time building strength with weight lifting ... why would you expect to beat them? Speaking for myself, I'm tired of having just average strength (or slightly less) and losing to stronger guys with worse technique so I'm going to build some muscle for a year or so and see where that leads me. It should also reduce the risk of injuries a bit and make me overall healthier. What's wrong with that?

Btw. am I sensing a bit of hostility from a few of you guys because of my comments? I've trained for some years so I'm not just talking out of my ass, FYI.
3/9/13 12:06 PM
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The Gimp
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It's probably because of your hakarl breath
3/9/13 4:00 PM
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Steve_73
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jonpall - 
Steve_73 - 
dojo stormer - yes there has been a lot more athletic crossfit type guys training.

it's insanely hard to roll with guys who outweigh you by 20kg of pure muscle, not just 20kg of weight.


I don't get why people don't see this.

Try 20kg of muscle with athletic ability and 1-2 years of hard training.

In every other sport this simply isn't even questioned. In basketball would you expect a high school 6 foot 6 athletic 16 year old phenom to beat my 5 foot nothing backside.

My cross-over isn't the problem.

This is kind of my point. So you train only BJJ and go against guys who train BJJ but have ALSO put in a lot of time building strength with weight lifting ... why would you expect to beat them? Speaking for myself, I'm tired of having just average strength (or slightly less) and losing to stronger guys with worse technique so I'm going to build some muscle for a year or so and see where that leads me. It should also reduce the risk of injuries a bit and make me overall healthier. What's wrong with that?

Btw. am I sensing a bit of hostility from a few of you guys because of my comments? I've trained for some years so I'm not just talking out of my ass, FYI.

I'm sensing some delusional thinking from some guys who seem to think the color of your belt makes you unbeatable. I've trained for a number of years as well.

I don't agree with you with regards to weight training because I really can't be stuffed and I don't care if I get beaten by someone who is better than me - either because they are bigger or more athletic and they do not have the same color belt as myself.

I think more the mind-set of equating belt rank to ability on the mat needs to be put into perspective. All things being equal it matters but there are plenty of times it doesn't.
3/9/13 4:18 PM
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Herbish1
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I'm just a blue belt and have been a bigger guy my whole jiu jitsu career (in my 3rd year). I'm currently dropping weight and the lightest I've been, but I have so much trouble with athletic fast guys. Against white belts I always play bottom and there is one kid who stand up and runs around me and passes. Sometimes it's a bit tougher for him but his speed always gets him around me within the first 45 seconds. It pisses me off because I feel there is no technique being used. However I usually play defense and he can't sub me, which makes me happy. If I get an opportunity I can usually reverse the position. Eventually someone is going to be able to match the speed and the guy isn't going to have anything else to fall back on. But I suppose that's his problem, I get to work my defense. Hopefully with the weight I drop my speed will increase to where I can catch him, or I'll be able to cut off his angles as I progress. Phone Post
3/10/13 1:15 AM
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andrewn
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"This is kind of my point. So you train only BJJ and go against guys who train BJJ but have ALSO put in a lot of time building strength with weight lifting ... why would you expect to beat them? Speaking for myself, I'm tired of having just average strength (or slightly less) and losing to stronger guys with worse technique so I'm going to build some muscle for a year or so and see where that leads me. It should also reduce the risk of injuries a bit and make me overall healthier. What's wrong with that?"

I don't think anyone really disagrees with you.

There comes a point when you will run up against diminishing returns - I'm 58, brown belt and pretty fit for my age, but nothing I can realistically do strength wise is going to get me matching a 25 year old purple belt who also lifts,trains for MMA as well and doesn't have a full time job and responsibilities.

If I train like he does for a week, I'll need to spend three days in bed to recover. Even with PED I wouldn't have the ability to recover fast enough to outwork the younger guys (plus the drugs would probably kill me anyway).

That said, I do my best with strength training and cardio and agree they definitely help avoid injury and keep me in the game better than would otherwise be the case. But if I don't stay within my age-imposed limits my body will definitely tell me so in no uncertain terms.

I just try to tie the athletic guys up and slow the fight down. A lot of trapping one of his limbs with two of mine. And really work at good defense. And also, become comfortable at tapping to bigger or stronger blues and purples.
3/10/13 6:39 AM
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shortyjj
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I just STFU and train.
3/10/13 2:16 PM
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Shoco
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For later Phone Post
3/14/13 2:40 PM
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TrevorRice
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there are exceptions- Silverfox- karl pravec is in his late 40's or possibly 50 and he is extremly fast. I think he can match a very athletic 20year old blackbelt in a scramble. I would love to know his take on this..
3/14/13 3:53 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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shortyjj - I just STFU and train.

What does this mean? So you just take your licks or you mean you bite down and all out>?
3/14/13 7:32 PM
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Truemanc3
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I am 43 and I have done 28 years in MA and 16 of those are bjj...I am a bb and I have a place and I'm doing ok, training hard with the young guys... I also have my own business in the day and have 2 kids under 6 yoa...Its hard but you just have to keep going.... what else is there to do???

Like many guys on this site... I have trained for so long I forget why I started in the first place??? and I dont know what else to do!!! all I know is it gives me a sence of living life to the full so as long as I have the ability to keep going I will... and when I cant I'll coach my kids and students the best I can.
3/14/13 7:42 PM
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value tudo
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LetsTalkItOut - 
shortyjj - I just STFU and train.

What does this mean? So you just take your licks or you mean you bite down and all out>?

Less complaints, more drilling.
3/16/13 5:50 PM
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BjjGearJunkie
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Knee shield works wonders for me. Phone Post
3/16/13 6:55 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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value tudo - 
LetsTalkItOut - 
shortyjj - I just STFU and train.

What does this mean? So you just take your licks or you mean you bite down and all out>?

Less complaints, more drilling.

What do you recommend to drill that would help VT?

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