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UnderGround Forums >> Fox Fallon: "I deserve the right to fight in WMMA"


3/8/13 5:38 AM
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Twist of Cain
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Ugh. Dude looks like Wanderlei Silva with a bikini on. Fuck no that guy shouldn't be allowed to fight women.
3/8/13 7:11 AM
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JustAnotherMMAFan
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It's not just about hormones, but also bigger hands and bones in general, and stronger ligments... that won't change ever.

3/8/13 7:24 AM
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Devlin
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Fighting mma isnt a right, its a privilege, and she has an unfair advantage over the women she competes against, this isnt running or swimming, her natural advantages could lead to her brutally assaulting someone, I am all for her rights and choices, but this should not happen.
3/8/13 7:36 AM
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Blazing Knees
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Gays and other assorted freaks like this tranny are always trying to compare themselves to the struggles for civil rights that american blacks have suffered and the community resents it wholeheartedly.

Cutting off a penis and taking estrogen does not make a woman and nothing, nothinng can change that.
3/8/13 7:45 AM
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6ULDV8
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Brandable - 
craigdonley - Geez, a lot of ignorant and cruel people here.

It's already been established that legally she is female.

Does she have an advantage based on the "arguments" that people have cited (vision, bone structure, spacial navigation, etc)? Maybe, more leaning to yes.

But, if it's really an issue of advantage, make her fight 15 to 20 lbs lighter than her opponent i.e. if it's the 145 lb division that she's fighting in, then have her weigh-in at 130 lbs at weigh-in at mandatory weight. If she can't make weight, give her opponent 20% of her purse. Wouldn't that be a better compromise?

 

This is one of the dumbest things i've ever read on this forum.

 


Brandable crystallized my thoughts eloquently.

3/8/13 8:05 AM
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tomp6581
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No way. If it wants to be considered a woman then great, it has had the operation and it lives in a society where it can be accepted.

But a pro woman athlete? Not a chance.

Imagine a transgender male wanting to compete in men's MMA? Would that be 'fair game' too? No. it wouldn't. Phone Post
3/8/13 8:05 AM
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fightharder
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Kinkle - "there are a lot of good looking trannies out there though"

Take that disgusting garbage to the HOMO Ground! If you are attracted to that you are QUEER!!!

Have him fight Cyborg, they can be the first fighters in the UFC 145 lb SHEMALE division.
Someone has some frustration to work out. So fucking uncomfortable in your own skin that you need to be a fucking bigot.

Your a fucking throwback to a sad ages in this.

Now as to this person fighting females, firm no. Should not fight males either because disadvantages would be to big. She might have to wait for the all tranny fight league. Phone Post
3/8/13 8:16 AM
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fightharder
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soremano -
NeilDiamond -  If transgender females can't compete in women's athletics, why would they be able to fight women?!

She can't go on fighting women. Phone Post

actually they can

  • Surgical changes must have been completed, including external genitalia changes and removal of gonads.
  • Legal recognition of their assigned sex must have been conferred by appropriate official authorities.
  • Hormone therapy -- for the assigned sex -- must have been given for long enough to minimize any gender-related advantages in sport competitions, a period that must be at least two years after gonadectomy.
 
As long as her female opponents agree to the fight it should be allowed, adults are free to make their own choices. We might have a situation though where no female fighters want to fight her and the issue will go away on it's own.
 
I'd like to see her fight Cyborg before it's all said and done though, I bet Cyborg whoops that ass
 
 
Yeah all interesting points. But the fact of matter is that her bone structure and skeleton is still male. Her hands are still bigger, her feet bigger and her body thicker.

It might be something some woman fighters are not opposed too ( i mean there already training almost exclusively with men) but it tips the scales to much in favor of her.

Its shitty for her but no can only be the realistic answer. Phone Post
3/8/13 8:49 AM
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AssassinsNATION
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Jive Turkey -
SlickPacific - 
Jive Turkey - 
bekk46 - 
Jive Turkey -
bekk46 - 
Jive Turkey -
bekk46 - 
Jive Turkey -
bekk46 - 
Jive Turkey -
ChaosOverkill - 
Jive Turkey - Bunch of immature, homophobic dude bros in here. Anyone surprised?

why because we don't arbitrarily approve of a Transexual wanting to do everything they think they should with no scrutiny because their community considers them heroes?


I'm not saying there aren't legitimate arguments. Those aren't the people I'm speaking to. It's the "he-she" "it" "I don't care, that's a man" troglodytes I'm talking about
That IS a man with a cut off penis with Brest implants and estrogen pills.

Shut up dude. Phone Post

Why does it bother you so much? Who fucking cares? It makes her happy and affects you in no way
He's trying to fight WOMEN and physically cause harm to them.

You really need to find a new angle bro. Phone Post

"bro". again, not surprised.
If you took two seconds to read my responses, you'd see clearly that my issue isn't with people stating valid arguments about why she shouldn't be able to fight. I might support those arguments myself. It's your idiot responses like "that IS a man with a cut off penis with brest (hahaha) implants and estrogen pills". You're a mouth breather and don't even know it
The problem is, you're discussing an issue that isn't even fucking here. No one cares if a dude wants to chop their fucking dick off and live their life. Everyone cares if that dude now wants to inflict damage to a woman and demands that they have the god given right to do so.

Go to a fucking tranny rally if you want to discuss tolerance and GTF off this thread. Phone Post

If you children could discuss it like big boys, there would be no need to make any comments.

Fucking bigot
This is a thread about a man fighting in MMA, not tranny rights.

Ill say it again,

This is a thread about a man fighting in MMA, not tranny rights. Phone Post

If someone came in here and started throwing around the word nigger, would you be cool with that?

Awwww damn we got trolled...this hasn't happened in a long time haha.

Alright, you guys are way too dumb to carry on a conversation. Have fun comparing dick sizes or whatever it is you dude bros are in to
You mean you failed horribly at your attempt to troll and you haven't said anything of any type of significance. Fact is he was a he, now he is a she, so common sense he/she fits. Don't throw other common stereotypical arguments into the mix they don't necessarily apply. Phone Post
3/8/13 9:18 AM
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Chulio
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88samurai88 -  She claims she is the same as a woman? Bullshit. So if brock lesnar has a sex change he/she decides to fight its fair? I dont think so. Phone Post

If the information about the bone structure is true then the Olympics, judo etc are all wrong. Has this actually been verified?
If Lesnar did the same thing and took estrogen he would still be grotesquely not a woman. The fact that she lied is appalling.

If the person wants to be a she the right to compete is gone. If she truly was not a man in her brain and had to be a woman then giving up fighting should not be that important to her
I think rather that was her motivation.

I use the term she because I'm not sure what to call her.
3/8/13 9:30 AM
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Blazing Knees
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Chulio - 
88samurai88 -  She claims she is the same as a woman? Bullshit. So if brock lesnar has a sex change he/she decides to fight its fair? I dont think so. Phone Post

If the information about the bone structure is true then the Olympics, judo etc are all wrong. Has this actually been verified?
If Lesnar did the same thing and took estrogen he would still be grotesquely not a woman. The fact that she lied is appalling.

If the person wants to be a she the right to compete is gone. If she truly was not a man in her brain and had to be a woman then giving up fighting should not be that important to her
I think rather that was her motivation.

I use the term she because I'm not sure what to call her.

" It ' might be closer
3/8/13 9:31 AM
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Chulio
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Jive Turkey I get why you are not happy, sometimes the posts on these boards can be pretty brutal. It is a side of MMA I don't like in general, like the fact that there are always fights in the parking lot after a local show.
That said your wasting your time because that is not the argument being discussed. Bringing in the race thing as an analogy was just plain wrong.
3/8/13 11:00 AM
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ShawnTheBadger
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Thacommish - 
ShawnTheBadger - 
New Leaf 1.0 - As long as the man or woman she is fighting agrees to it, I just don't see a problem. Consenting adults.

Would I let her compete for a women's championship in a promotion I ran, hell no. But, I'd let her fight against a man or woman who chose to accept a fight with her.

Agreed. Further, I am probably one of thee most tolerant folks on planet earth.

At the same time, I can certainly understand the genuine concern for skeletal (or other) differences between Fallon and a woman born with the correct plumbing.

Quote from previous link in this thread:

"I'm technically, legally, physically and mentally female," she said. "Everything about me is female"

She has solid ground to stand on. Given her physical transition, she would be eligible to compete in the Olympic Games as she meets the International Olympic Committees' standards for trans athletes. If she were so inclined, she would be eligible to compete on the LPGA Tour and the WTA."



Apparently Ms. Fallon would be eligible to compete in womens boxing, wrestling, Judo, and TKD in the Olympics.

Which means that some doctors, physiologists, endocrinologists, and surgeons (real smart dudes) from the Olympic Committee think it is perfectly safe for Fox Fallon to compete in Olympic combat sports.

So if those (Olympic) Doctors think it is safe for Fox Fallon to compete against other women in combat sports, who am I to question them?

That is what logic tells me.

At the same time, I could see other women competitors who did not want to fight Ms. Fallon, and I could understand their position as well.




"Which means that some doctors, physiologists, endocrinologists, and surgeons (real smart dudes) from the Olympic Committee think it is perfectly safe for Fox Fallon to compete in Olympic combat sports."
I was not aware she was seen and or approved by an Olympic committee or an athletic commission, from what i see in this thread a large part of the problem is her neglecting to do any of that, and in fact lying about it so as to not have to undergo this process..

I am only going off the article(s) presented.

Allow me to re-phrase.

The IOC (International Olympic Committee) doctors have guidelines in place under which they assert it is perfectly safe for transgendered athletes to compete in combat sports. Including but not limited to Judo, boxing, wrestling, and TKD.

IF Fox Fallon indeed meets the IOC Guidelines, then those IOC Doctors are stating it is perfectly safe for her to compete against other naturally born biological women in combat sports.

Therefore, IF Fox Fallon does in fact meet the IOC Guidelines, then I am not educated enough (nor are 99.99% of the folks on this forum) to question the IOC doctors about their collective judgement on the matter.

How many posters on this topic are endocrinologists? Sports Medicine docs? Physiologists? Surgeons that do sex-change operations? Anybody?




I used to be a bouncer, now I am a cattle farmer. I have a Bachelor of Sciences degree in Sociology with a minor in business. Some of which I can vaguely remember from the late '80's. How the hell am I going to question the IOC Doctors and their educated conclusions about the safety of competitive athletes in combat sports?

I'm not. I am going to defer to their educated conclusions and judgement on the matter. IF they say Fox Fallon fighting per their guidelines is "safe" for the combatants involved, then so be it.

IF there are born-female athletes that choose not to compete against Fox Fallon, that is fine with me. That is their decision.

IF there are born-female athletes that will agree to compete against Fox fallon, then so be it. Let them bang (bro).



3/8/13 11:53 AM
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blacksamurai
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ChaosOverkill -

If she gets the Ok, I'm cheering for her to get brutally KO'd.

Using the advancement of tolerance when you hid your sex change until now is despicable. If you were so proud and sure you had no advantage why hide it until now?

 

Get stuffed.

Yeah that is shady.... Phone Post
3/8/13 12:19 PM
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Goonies Top Team
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No you don't, your a f**kn dude! Phone Post
3/8/13 12:23 PM
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6ULDV8
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Phil999 - So he takes Performance dehancing drugs?

I missed this gem.

 

Legit.

3/8/13 12:28 PM
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thedirtyburger
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If you guys read anything into the subject, you would see she has no advantages. Past opponents of hers say it was no different and had they not known she had a sex change, they would have had no idea Phone Post
3/8/13 12:34 PM
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Chaelismyhero
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Trannys are fuckin disgusting. No offense to anybody who is a tranny or knows a tranny.
3/8/13 12:34 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)
3/8/13 12:37 PM
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6ULDV8
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Jason Reinhardt - i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)

Enough dude.  It's your friend or whatever but enough.

 

People are not born transgender, by the very fucking definition of transgender.  If you're born transgender, you're not possibly transgender.  

 

It's like saying some people are born unicorns.

 

It's just not possible.

 

3/8/13 1:08 PM
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JINH
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I’m not a physician, but have been in the medical field for some time. I feel like Fox has had 30 years to become physically superior to what any women would naturally be able to. Men typically have denser muscles, bones, tougher skin, increased lung volume, better vision/depth perception, bigger hands, etc, etc. Even having been on estrogen/progesterone for 2 years, I don’t feel like synthetic hormones for 2 years can undo what nature did over the course of 30 years. Also, it has been said that the estrogen makes it difficult for Fox to maintain what she had previously developed as a man. Difficult, but not impossible.

I’ve known women who have had hysterectomies and began hormone replacement therapy. They have said that the HRT does not completely restore everything to pre-hysterectomy state. Thus, I would suspect synthetic hormones are probably not as potent as real hormones produced by the body. Also, she takes them either in pill form or cream form. So she must absorb the hormones through the digestive tract or through her skin. Is absorption through an extrinsic source as efficient as intrinsic? Is she getting the same amount as a natural born female? Is a natural born female’s body, one that is genetically wired to depend on estrogen, affected to a greater extent than a body that is not genetically wired to depend on female hormones? Basically, do those hormones affect Fox’s body the same way it would a natural female?

These are questions that should be answered. Concerning the olympic committees that state after 2 years of hormone replacement a transgendered individual is safe to compete, point sparring with padding (like TKD) is much different than an MMA fight.

On a side note, does Fox even menstruate? Is she affected by all the symptoms that accompany menstruation? Bloating, cramping, fatigue, water retention that make training and cutting weight difficult?

I think there are too many unanswered questions to be able to safely say with any certainty that she is on level playing ground with natural born women.
3/8/13 1:17 PM
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ipponBJJ
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6ULDV8 - 
Jason Reinhardt - i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)

Enough dude.  It's your friend or whatever but enough.

 

People are not born transgender, by the very fucking definition of transgender.  If you're born transgender, you're not possibly transgender.  

 

It's like saying some people are born unicorns.

 

It's just not possible.

 


You just broke his heart. About Unicorns.
3/8/13 1:34 PM
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craigdonley
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ChaosOverkill - 
craigdonley - Geez, a lot of ignorant and cruel people here.

It's already been established that legally she is female.

Does she have an advantage based on the "arguments" that people have cited (vision, bone structure, spacial navigation, etc)? Maybe, more leaning to yes.

But, if it's really an issue of advantage, make her fight 15 to 20 lbs lighter than her opponent i.e. if it's the 145 lb division that she's fighting in, then have her weigh-in at 130 lbs at weigh-in at mandatory weight. If she can't make weight, give her opponent 20% of her purse. Wouldn't that be a better compromise?

how do you scientifically measure the advantages and determind how much of  weight 'handicap' is enough though?


I really don't know. But there's has to be a way to put a scientific model to this E.g. it takes two women to defeat a man, then you factor in the hormones, etc. I'm just throwing those out...

All, I'm saying is that it's not black and white as people want to label it. Let's look at the facts:

1. She has a boxing license as I understand it.
2. She did not become a woman (cut her penis off to the rest of you) to gain the advantage in MMA or sports for that matter. But yet (see #3 below)
3. She has an advantage due to all of the reasons cited.

So, let's address the issue and come to a compromise.

I mean, if Ronda Rousey can arguably beat a man in MMA, then shouldn't it at least be considered instead of just saying GTFO Fox.
3/8/13 1:34 PM
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Chulio
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I used to compete in Ultra running and Ironman distance triathlons and was part of several studies testing VO2 Max.
The very best woman who were national champions in the sport had on average the VO2max of a middle to upper middle numbers

VO2 max - Men vs. Women

Absolute values of VO2max are typically 40-60% higher in men than in women. Obviously, this difference is most notably due to the variance in bodyweight and lean body mass between men and women. A more accurate comparison of maximal oxygen uptake between men and women would use the relative measure.

Research has shown that the average young untrained male will have a VO2 max of approximately 3.5 litres/minute (absolute) and 45 ml/kg/min (relative).

The average young untrained female will score a VO2 max of approximately 2.0 litres/minute and 38 ml/kg/min.

does this go away when you have the changes


And just because experts and the IOC say something does not mean I can't disagree because I don't have a degree. There are plenty of experts who know more than me who are full of crap
3/8/13 2:26 PM
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easedel
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Another thing is its not like he was some joe public coming off the couch, getting whatever he had done and started training MMA.

Guy was in the navy & always been athletic. So you factor that into the shape he was in before surgery...yea shouldn't be fighting women

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