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UnderGround Forums >> Fox Fallon: "I deserve the right to fight in WMMA"


3/8/13 12:34 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)
3/8/13 12:37 PM
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6ULDV8
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Jason Reinhardt - i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)

Enough dude.  It's your friend or whatever but enough.

 

People are not born transgender, by the very fucking definition of transgender.  If you're born transgender, you're not possibly transgender.  

 

It's like saying some people are born unicorns.

 

It's just not possible.

 

3/8/13 1:08 PM
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JINH
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I’m not a physician, but have been in the medical field for some time. I feel like Fox has had 30 years to become physically superior to what any women would naturally be able to. Men typically have denser muscles, bones, tougher skin, increased lung volume, better vision/depth perception, bigger hands, etc, etc. Even having been on estrogen/progesterone for 2 years, I don’t feel like synthetic hormones for 2 years can undo what nature did over the course of 30 years. Also, it has been said that the estrogen makes it difficult for Fox to maintain what she had previously developed as a man. Difficult, but not impossible.

I’ve known women who have had hysterectomies and began hormone replacement therapy. They have said that the HRT does not completely restore everything to pre-hysterectomy state. Thus, I would suspect synthetic hormones are probably not as potent as real hormones produced by the body. Also, she takes them either in pill form or cream form. So she must absorb the hormones through the digestive tract or through her skin. Is absorption through an extrinsic source as efficient as intrinsic? Is she getting the same amount as a natural born female? Is a natural born female’s body, one that is genetically wired to depend on estrogen, affected to a greater extent than a body that is not genetically wired to depend on female hormones? Basically, do those hormones affect Fox’s body the same way it would a natural female?

These are questions that should be answered. Concerning the olympic committees that state after 2 years of hormone replacement a transgendered individual is safe to compete, point sparring with padding (like TKD) is much different than an MMA fight.

On a side note, does Fox even menstruate? Is she affected by all the symptoms that accompany menstruation? Bloating, cramping, fatigue, water retention that make training and cutting weight difficult?

I think there are too many unanswered questions to be able to safely say with any certainty that she is on level playing ground with natural born women.
3/8/13 1:17 PM
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ipponBJJ
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6ULDV8 - 
Jason Reinhardt - i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)

Enough dude.  It's your friend or whatever but enough.

 

People are not born transgender, by the very fucking definition of transgender.  If you're born transgender, you're not possibly transgender.  

 

It's like saying some people are born unicorns.

 

It's just not possible.

 


You just broke his heart. About Unicorns.
3/8/13 1:34 PM
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craigdonley
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ChaosOverkill - 
craigdonley - Geez, a lot of ignorant and cruel people here.

It's already been established that legally she is female.

Does she have an advantage based on the "arguments" that people have cited (vision, bone structure, spacial navigation, etc)? Maybe, more leaning to yes.

But, if it's really an issue of advantage, make her fight 15 to 20 lbs lighter than her opponent i.e. if it's the 145 lb division that she's fighting in, then have her weigh-in at 130 lbs at weigh-in at mandatory weight. If she can't make weight, give her opponent 20% of her purse. Wouldn't that be a better compromise?

how do you scientifically measure the advantages and determind how much of  weight 'handicap' is enough though?


I really don't know. But there's has to be a way to put a scientific model to this E.g. it takes two women to defeat a man, then you factor in the hormones, etc. I'm just throwing those out...

All, I'm saying is that it's not black and white as people want to label it. Let's look at the facts:

1. She has a boxing license as I understand it.
2. She did not become a woman (cut her penis off to the rest of you) to gain the advantage in MMA or sports for that matter. But yet (see #3 below)
3. She has an advantage due to all of the reasons cited.

So, let's address the issue and come to a compromise.

I mean, if Ronda Rousey can arguably beat a man in MMA, then shouldn't it at least be considered instead of just saying GTFO Fox.
3/8/13 1:34 PM
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Chulio
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I used to compete in Ultra running and Ironman distance triathlons and was part of several studies testing VO2 Max.
The very best woman who were national champions in the sport had on average the VO2max of a middle to upper middle numbers

VO2 max - Men vs. Women

Absolute values of VO2max are typically 40-60% higher in men than in women. Obviously, this difference is most notably due to the variance in bodyweight and lean body mass between men and women. A more accurate comparison of maximal oxygen uptake between men and women would use the relative measure.

Research has shown that the average young untrained male will have a VO2 max of approximately 3.5 litres/minute (absolute) and 45 ml/kg/min (relative).

The average young untrained female will score a VO2 max of approximately 2.0 litres/minute and 38 ml/kg/min.

does this go away when you have the changes


And just because experts and the IOC say something does not mean I can't disagree because I don't have a degree. There are plenty of experts who know more than me who are full of crap
3/8/13 2:33 PM
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i remember halloween
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bekk46 - 
Jive Turkey -
ChaosOverkill - 
Jive Turkey - Bunch of immature, homophobic dude bros in here. Anyone surprised?

why because we don't arbitrarily approve of a Transexual wanting to do everything they think they should with no scrutiny because their community considers them heroes?


I'm not saying there aren't legitimate arguments. Those aren't the people I'm speaking to. It's the "he-she" "it" "I don't care, that's a man" troglodytes I'm talking about
That IS a man with a cut off penis with Brest implants and estrogen pills.

Shut up dude. Phone Post

QFT, Jive Turkey sounds like a tranny with its panties in a bunch.

3/8/13 2:36 PM
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Submissable
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thedirtyburger -  If you guys read anything into the subject, you would see she has no advantages. Past opponents of hers say it was no different and had they not known she had a sex change, they would have had no idea Phone Post

Not true.

 

"Of course, that's easier to say from a distance. Just ask Alyssa Vasquez, who faced Fox in an amateur bout in Rockford, Ill., this past April, and did so without any idea that Fox was a transgender woman.


"I consider myself to be a pretty strong female, and she's hands down the strongest person I've ever fought," Vasquez told MMAjunkie.com.

According to Vasquez, Fox immediately shot for a takedown, achieved full mount, then eventually transitioned from a triangle choke to an armbar finish just over a minute into the fight. Fox's strength was evident right away, Vasquez said, which led her to suspect that the loss might not have been completely legitimate.

"I thought she was taking steroids or testosterone or some type of enhancing substance," Vasquez said. "That's what I assumed."

Only later did she hear rumors that Fox was transgender, which, she said, "honestly was not a shock."

One of the things that irked Vasquez about the situation, she said, was the lack of disclosure. It was unclear to her whether the promoters of the Rumble on the River event knew that Fox was transgender, but Vasquez said no one gave her even the slightest inkling until well after the fight. Had she had that information before, Vasquez explained, she might never have taken the bout.

"Even though I'm stupid as hell, I would not jump into the cage with somebody that was born a man because I know my limits," she said."

 

 

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/03/with-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-unchartered-territory-comes-with-complicate

 

 

3/8/13 2:45 PM
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i remember halloween
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JINH - I’m not a physician, but have been in the medical field for some time. I feel like Fox has had 30 years to become physically superior to what any women would naturally be able to. Men typically have denser muscles, bones, tougher skin, increased lung volume, better vision/depth perception, bigger hands, etc, etc. Even having been on estrogen/progesterone for 2 years, I don’t feel like synthetic hormones for 2 years can undo what nature did over the course of 30 years. Also, it has been said that the estrogen makes it difficult for Fox to maintain what she had previously developed as a man. Difficult, but not impossible.

I’ve known women who have had hysterectomies and began hormone replacement therapy. They have said that the HRT does not completely restore everything to pre-hysterectomy state. Thus, I would suspect synthetic hormones are probably not as potent as real hormones produced by the body. Also, she takes them either in pill form or cream form. So she must absorb the hormones through the digestive tract or through her skin. Is absorption through an extrinsic source as efficient as intrinsic? Is she getting the same amount as a natural born female? Is a natural born female’s body, one that is genetically wired to depend on estrogen, affected to a greater extent than a body that is not genetically wired to depend on female hormones? Basically, do those hormones affect Fox’s body the same way it would a natural female?

These are questions that should be answered. Concerning the olympic committees that state after 2 years of hormone replacement a transgendered individual is safe to compete, point sparring with padding (like TKD) is much different than an MMA fight.

On a side note, does Fox even menstruate? Is she affected by all the symptoms that accompany menstruation? Bloating, cramping, fatigue, water retention that make training and cutting weight difficult?

I think there are too many unanswered questions to be able to safely say with any certainty that she is on level playing ground with natural born women.

Does Fox even menstruate?  You realize Fox is a guy that cut off his dick and got breast implants and takes some hormones to reduce body hair and stuff and thats it right?  He doesn't have female genitalia, probably looks like a Ken doll or something.

3/8/13 3:33 PM
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yomamafool
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Jason Reinhardt - i do feel people are born either straight, gay, or in this case transgender. If not, then how do you explain dudes walking around with a very femine voice acting in very femine ways. Most of the time, they can't help it. (that's my take)

dudes can have all of those feminine qualities and still be straight males


also, since when do babies have sexual preferences? was i born preferring to bang hispanic women over white or black women? that is my sexual preference.

3/8/13 4:25 PM
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6ULDV8
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I'm still waiting for Dougie to chime in: I'll fight him but I won't cut weight, or my dick off

 

OK, that last part was mine.

 

 

3/8/13 4:54 PM
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Vandalay Silva
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Edited: 03/08/13 5:04 PM
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Can "she" make babies? If not, "she's" not a woman. Case Closed. Just a genetic anomaly and is unfortunate, but thats all it is.<br />"She" was born a man with screwed up wiring, no different than a child being born with autism, down syndrome or any other horrible disorder. He can cut off his dick and artificially force his body to stop producing male chemicals, but that doesnt make him a woman.

Edit- I never thought Ricardo Mayorga would be this dedicated to entering MMA.

Photoshop masters, there is a gold mine there.
3/8/13 7:48 PM
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Jive Turkey
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Chulio - Jive Turkey I get why you are not happy, sometimes the posts on these boards can be pretty brutal. It is a side of MMA I don't like in general, like the fact that there are always fights in the parking lot after a local show.
That said your wasting your time because that is not the argument being discussed. Bringing in the race thing as an analogy was just plain wrong.

Hey man. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I get that it's not what is being discussed. I'm just really turned off my the casual bigotry in some of these threads. It was more an off the cuff remark that got taken out of context (whether that was done on purpose of through lack of intellect, I'm not sure) and became something it wasn't intended to be. The race comment was just to illustrate that most people here wouldn't tolerate that (I'd hope), yet have no problem throwing around similarly bigoted phrases. Does the analogy fit? Anyway, yes, you're right; it's a waste of time.
Nice to know there are some people here who can string together coherent thoughts.
3/8/13 10:55 PM
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Drewout
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Women have been fighting Men in The Army Combatives Tournament. Some women have recently beat men in the fights there....

Women want equal rights. Women want to go to war.

I am all for it in MMA. I say get rid of WMMA....

Let's see who wins between Faber & Rousey = DO IT DANA!!!!
3/8/13 10:57 PM
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Drewout
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http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/20/2885897/man-vs-woman-mma-fort-hood-army-combatives

3/8/13 10:58 PM
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ranier wolfcastle
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hes gonna be extra bummed when he goes bald

3/8/13 11:04 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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pidgey - 
ShawnTheBadger - 
Thacommish - 
ShawnTheBadger - 
New Leaf 1.0 - As long as the man or woman she is fighting agrees to it, I just don't see a problem. Consenting adults.

Would I let her compete for a women's championship in a promotion I ran, hell no. But, I'd let her fight against a man or woman who chose to accept a fight with her.

Agreed. Further, I am probably one of thee most tolerant folks on planet earth.

At the same time, I can certainly understand the genuine concern for skeletal (or other) differences between Fallon and a woman born with the correct plumbing.

Quote from previous link in this thread:

"I'm technically, legally, physically and mentally female," she said. "Everything about me is female"

She has solid ground to stand on. Given her physical transition, she would be eligible to compete in the Olympic Games as she meets the International Olympic Committees' standards for trans athletes. If she were so inclined, she would be eligible to compete on the LPGA Tour and the WTA."



Apparently Ms. Fallon would be eligible to compete in womens boxing, wrestling, Judo, and TKD in the Olympics.

Which means that some doctors, physiologists, endocrinologists, and surgeons (real smart dudes) from the Olympic Committee think it is perfectly safe for Fox Fallon to compete in Olympic combat sports.

So if those (Olympic) Doctors think it is safe for Fox Fallon to compete against other women in combat sports, who am I to question them?

That is what logic tells me.

At the same time, I could see other women competitors who did not want to fight Ms. Fallon, and I could understand their position as well.




"Which means that some doctors, physiologists, endocrinologists, and surgeons (real smart dudes) from the Olympic Committee think it is perfectly safe for Fox Fallon to compete in Olympic combat sports."
I was not aware she was seen and or approved by an Olympic committee or an athletic commission, from what i see in this thread a large part of the problem is her neglecting to do any of that, and in fact lying about it so as to not have to undergo this process..

I am only going off the article(s) presented.

Allow me to re-phrase.

The IOC (International Olympic Committee) doctors have guidelines in place under which they assert it is perfectly safe for transgendered athletes to compete in combat sports. Including but not limited to Judo, boxing, wrestling, and TKD.

IF Fox Fallon indeed meets the IOC Guidelines, then those IOC Doctors are stating it is perfectly safe for her to compete against other naturally born biological women in combat sports.

Therefore, IF Fox Fallon does in fact meet the IOC Guidelines, then I am not educated enough (nor are 99.99% of the folks on this forum) to question the IOC doctors about their collective judgement on the matter.

How many posters on this topic are endocrinologists? Sports Medicine docs? Physiologists? Surgeons that do sex-change operations? Anybody?




I used to be a bouncer, now I am a cattle farmer. I have a Bachelor of Sciences degree in Sociology with a minor in business. Some of which I can vaguely remember from the late '80's. How the hell am I going to question the IOC Doctors and their educated conclusions about the safety of competitive athletes in combat sports?

I'm not. I am going to defer to their educated conclusions and judgement on the matter. IF they say Fox Fallon fighting per their guidelines is "safe" for the combatants involved, then so be it.

IF there are born-female athletes that choose not to compete against Fox Fallon, that is fine with me. That is their decision.

IF there are born-female athletes that will agree to compete against Fox fallon, then so be it. Let them bang (bro).




You're saying that whatever the IOC says you are ok with it because they have the knowledge you (and i) dont have, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, what if the IOC took a "political" decision and even though trannies have an huge advantage the IOC decides to let them compete with females to avoid political headaches from gays/lesbians/trannies activists?

This, and until the olympics allows one to Box there's no precedent for combat sports. 

 

Running and swimming or whatever is not the same potential for problems as a kickboxing match with submissions.

3/8/13 11:06 PM
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FearTheClown
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3/9/13 12:27 AM
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Blazing Knees
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This 'man' has benn marriedm, sired a child, joined the navy as a man and at age 30 decidd to be a girl
3/14/13 10:06 AM
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Jason Reinhardt
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f it. I'm gonna start a transgender mma event with Jamie Levine being the match-maker! (you young bucks don't know the name Jamie Levine) lol
3/14/13 10:07 AM
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Jason Reinhardt
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and i swear fox Fallon's opponent could be Beatle Juice's sista!
3/14/13 10:12 AM
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Raezor19
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Chromosomes...how do they work ??

XX = Woman

XY = Man

Unchangeable in todays world of technology.....

3/14/13 10:21 AM
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bekk46
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Raezor19 -

Chromosomes...how do they work ??

XX = Woman

XY = Man

Unchangeable in todays world of technology.....

This. Anyone who Denies this is just willingly partaking in ignorance. Phone Post
3/14/13 10:21 AM
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bekk46
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Blazing Knees - This 'man' has benn marriedm, sired a child, joined the navy as a man and at age 30 decidd to be a girl
. Phone Post
3/14/13 10:32 AM
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BigEyedFish
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none of you are doctors

if a group of doctors present a consensus that FF is sufficiently female in all areas where it counts in terms of the fight game, then what is the big deal?

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