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UnderGround Forums >> TOP SEX REASSIGNMENT DOCS WEIGH IN ON FALLON FOX


3/8/13 10:43 AM
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chaplinshouse
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i stopped reading at "and is herself a transgender woman."  then thought wait let me not jump to conclusions and read on.  sure enough, she's biased and not going to say anything anti transgender equal opportunity

it's called conflict of interest and is too open to biased Q&A  

3/8/13 10:46 AM
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Chomas
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Aaron Becker - we could all go out and knock girls out if we turn our dicks inside out

Ignorant statement is ignorant.
Not really, he's not far off. You could manipulate your testosterone results just like the men do. Phone Post
3/8/13 10:46 AM
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Brandable
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.

3/8/13 10:47 AM
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HexRei
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Edited: 03/08/13 10:50 AM
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

So you think that we basically can't trust the most knowledgeable people because they have an interest in the procedure? Who do we trust, ignorant people?


And also LOL at her body producing testosterone like a man's, ever again. You realize an integral part of most male to female reassignment surgeries is removal of the testes, right?
3/8/13 10:51 AM
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Caleb Alexander Von Reuter
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You gotta be fucking kidding me. Phone Post
3/8/13 10:54 AM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

3/8/13 10:56 AM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca - For anyone who cares, here's the scientific reason why she shouldn't be allowed (the science behind why she should be allowed has already been stated). Hormones have two ways of influencing the form of an organism: Organizational effects and Activational Effects. Organizational effects dictate the gross structure of the body, and in typical cases lead not only to genital sexual differentiation but also to brain and body sexual differentiation. These occur extremely early in development (from fetus to very young infant). Activational effects are the effects that come during puberty and beyond. They're called activational because they are a second hormone bath that "activates" the latent male/female "organization".

In other words, even if she's been on hormone therapy, etc, her mind and body still bear the stamp of the early male hormone bath she encountered as a fetus and very, very young infant. That stuff can't be reversed, no matter how many hormones she pumps in as an adult. The organizational effects of that early male hormone bath still linger in the form of her body and brain.


Take your science and logic elsewhere, sir. Not only do biased genital mutilators disagree with you, but the queen of pajamafaggots says it's okay, so the facts are really not applicable here.

And yeah, language like "most measures....fairly comparable.....probably end up" actually convincing people of anything is laughable at best.

I wish you didn't agree with me...Hillary Williams = "pajamafaggots", really? Grow up. As Hillary said, the science of sex and gender is more complicated than dumbbells like you care to accept. I wasn't claiming to have all the answers about this problem, but I wanted to make it clear that several scientific perspectives should weigh in on this debate.

Besides the obvious stupid shit like "pajamafaggots", you acting like a moran about words like "most measures" etc only makes clear that you have never read a real science paper in your life. Again, Grow up.
3/8/13 10:58 AM
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Brandable
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.


But yet you feature this one first, during all the media hoopla, purely to create a buzz, instead of combining the two into a well written article with viewpoints from both sides. 

That's selective journalism, something they teach you if you actually went to college for journalism.

3/8/13 11:00 AM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

I disagree about the conflict of interest. She was offering her opinion when asked, and while it should be taken in the context of her profession, just because she does that surgery for a living doesn't mean that she . She didn't hide what her job was, after all. But I see your skeptical point.

Regarding the hormones question, if Fallon did stop taking estrogen and other female hormones (testosterone inhibitors, I think), she'd return to her prior levels or something close to it. To me, this debate is quite similar to the TRT debate. Unless we were to monitor a transgender athlete all the time, there'd be room for abuse. I actually would be willing ot wager that these women would cheat the system less than TRT users, because their natural inclination is to take the female hormones. But that may be beside the point.
3/8/13 11:01 AM
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KingOfFighters
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So everyones going to ignore a mans superior 3-d spatial recogntion? Mens superior coordination and timing? Once he start ko'ing broads left and right, this is going to cause a shit storm.



Congrats he can beat up chicks, so can every other man. This is nothing to be proud of.
3/8/13 11:02 AM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.


But yet you feature this one first, during all the media hoopla, purely to create a buzz, instead of combining the two into a well written article with viewpoints from both sides. 

That's selective journalism, something they teach you if you actually went to college for journalism.


I presented this first because ZI interviewed these two physicians first and had the article written up and in a post queue already. The other interview wasn't conducted until late yesterday evening and isn't finished. Take your bullshit elsewhere. You don't know me, so don't pretend to know my ethics.

3/8/13 11:03 AM
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JSF1984
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post
3/8/13 11:05 AM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


You can tell simply by how passionate your responses are that you have a bias on this topic. How about some full disclosure? Do you have a close friend that's "transgender"? Do you know Fallon personally?

Why skip over his very valid comment about their being a conflict of interest just to point out that he made a mistake with the numbers?

No one here is making definitive claims except you. My personal stance is that any man that thinks that he is really a woman has a mental disability and that this is all a moot point because sports shouldn't cater to or reward mental disabilities.

And for whoever that was that commented... I definitely think that any PERSON who LOOKS like they have an abnormal amount of testosterone in their body should be tested like crazy. I said it about Overeem, I said it about Cyborg. Both turned out to be juicing. We can't get so PC that we abandon common sense. Where there's smoke, we should at least CHECK to see if there is fire.

I don't know any transgender people. I don't know Fallon. Never interacted with her on ANY platform. I am a registered nurse, though, and I recognize the solidity of the presented medical expertise here. I am STILL on the fence about this, which is why I posted in the last paragraph that more testing is probably warranted. There's a difference in bias and a willingness to be open minded. It's something that is sadly lacking on this forum.

3/8/13 11:09 AM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

3/8/13 11:09 AM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca - 
BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

I disagree about the conflict of interest. She was offering her opinion when asked, and while it should be taken in the context of her profession, just because she does that surgery for a living doesn't mean that she . She didn't hide what her job was, after all. But I see your skeptical point.

Regarding the hormones question, if Fallon did stop taking estrogen and other female hormones (testosterone inhibitors, I think), she'd return to her prior levels or something close to it. To me, this debate is quite similar to the TRT debate. Unless we were to monitor a transgender athlete all the time, there'd be room for abuse. I actually would be willing ot wager that these women would cheat the system less than TRT users, because their natural inclination is to take the female hormones. But that may be beside the point.

Gah, I forgot she's post-op, so she will never have testosterone like a natural man again. My bad.
3/8/13 11:11 AM
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BrandCarey
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

So you think that we basically can't trust the most knowledgeable people because they have an interest in the procedure? Who do we trust, ignorant people?


And also LOL at her body producing testosterone like a man's, ever again. You realize an integral part of most male to female reassignment surgeries is removal of the testes, right?

Very valid point and one I had not thought of, second point that is. This makes perfect sense and I see the validity of this point. I was comletely guessing there and that is why I asked for more info. With that in mind I could see the point being made by those saying hormonaly Fallon would be no different than a normal woman.

To answer your first question yes, that is exactly what I think. Scientific research should always be conducted away from those with vested interests. This is why research done by a company with vested interests is taken with a grain of salt. You do not have to be involved in the process to be knowledgeable of the facts. My point was moreso that asking someone who has made the choice to be transgendered themself definitely is a conflict of interest. From Crooklyn's response above it seemed she asked another non transgender doctor and in the interest of information this a source that would be a source that would raise less questions.
3/8/13 11:12 AM
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Brandable
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.


But yet you feature this one first, during all the media hoopla, purely to create a buzz, instead of combining the two into a well written article with viewpoints from both sides. 

That's selective journalism, something they teach you if you actually went to college for journalism.


I presented this first because ZI interviewed these two physicians first and had the article written up and in a post queue already. The other interview wasn't conducted until late yesterday evening and isn't finished. Take your bullshit elsewhere. You don't know me, so don't pretend to know my ethics.

 

What does knowing you have to do with anything? Are we 'keeping it real'? Give me a break. I pointed out an article you wrote was selective journalism (ask ANY actual journalist, they will agree), and given your emotional retort, i'd say you are more involved than you let on. Either way, i look forward to seeing the tone of the article with the doctor who disagrees. Maybe we can review an actual hormonal expert this time, and not someone who stands to gain from all the media buzz. Maybe.

 

3/8/13 11:13 AM
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BrandCarey
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Crooklyn - 
BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

How about you actually read the article? I specifically asked what happens if she stops and one of the physicians answered.


I am/was currently unable to read the entire article, this is why I asked the question. An answer or ignoring my post would have been preferable to the attitude.
3/8/13 11:16 AM
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Crooklyn
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

So you think that we basically can't trust the most knowledgeable people because they have an interest in the procedure? Who do we trust, ignorant people?


And also LOL at her body producing testosterone like a man's, ever again. You realize an integral part of most male to female reassignment surgeries is removal of the testes, right?

Very valid point and one I had not thought of, second point that is. This makes perfect sense and I see the validity of this point. I was comletely guessing there and that is why I asked for more info. With that in mind I could see the point being made by those saying hormonaly Fallon would be no different than a normal woman.

To answer your first question yes, that is exactly what I think. Scientific research should always be conducted away from those with vested interests. This is why research done by a company with vested interests is taken with a grain of salt. You do not have to be involved in the process to be knowledgeable of the facts. My point was moreso that asking someone who has made the choice to be transgendered themself definitely is a conflict of interest. From Crooklyn's response above it seemed she asked another non transgender doctor and in the interest of information this a source that would be a source that would raise less questions.

I did interview another leading surgeon in the field. He is quoted in the article and he agreed with everything Dr. Bowers said. 

3/8/13 11:21 AM
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BrandCarey
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?

I disagree about the conflict of interest. She was offering her opinion when asked, and while it should be taken in the context of her profession, just because she does that surgery for a living doesn't mean that she . She didn't hide what her job was, after all. But I see your skeptical point.

Regarding the hormones question, if Fallon did stop taking estrogen and other female hormones (testosterone inhibitors, I think), she'd return to her prior levels or something close to it. To me, this debate is quite similar to the TRT debate. Unless we were to monitor a transgender athlete all the time, there'd be room for abuse. I actually would be willing ot wager that these women would cheat the system less than TRT users, because their natural inclination is to take the female hormones. But that may be beside the point.

Gah, I forgot she's post-op, so she will never have testosterone like a natural man again. My bad.

Haha no worries. I appreciate the knowledgable response and actually answering the question with no attitude.

As far as the conflict of interest yes the doctor profiting from this is part of it but I meant more that the doctor was transgendered. Someone who has made that choice will always seem to be a bit of a biased opinion no matter what the facts say and there are other individuals that can be asked. I should have made that clearer. without being able to read the actual article, my understanding is that Crooklyn asked another doctor who was not transgendered and that would leave less room for skepticism and perceived biases.
3/8/13 11:25 AM
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post
3/8/13 11:25 AM
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Poop Doodle
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Check out 'Renee' on Netflix about Renee Richards (tennis). People were mad when a former (huge) dude was hitting tennis balls at teen girls. Punching, kicking, etc is a whole other world. Interesting quandary. Phone Post
3/8/13 11:27 AM
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.


But yet you feature this one first, during all the media hoopla, purely to create a buzz, instead of combining the two into a well written article with viewpoints from both sides. 

That's selective journalism, something they teach you if you actually went to college for journalism.


I presented this first because ZI interviewed these two physicians first and had the article written up and in a post queue already. The other interview wasn't conducted until late yesterday evening and isn't finished. Take your bullshit elsewhere. You don't know me, so don't pretend to know my ethics.

 

What does knowing you have to do with anything? Are we 'keeping it real'? Give me a break. I pointed out an article you wrote was selective journalism (ask ANY actual journalist, they will agree), and given your emotional retort, i'd say you are more involved than you let on. Either way, i look forward to seeing the tone of the article with the doctor who disagrees. Maybe we can review an actual hormonal expert this time, and not someone who stands to gain from all the media buzz. Maybe.

 


You presume to know why I put this piece up, or in what context it was intended. Media buzz had nothing to do with it. I saw all the questions in the other thread, and had some of my own, so I reached out to some physicians to get some expert opinions. My next piece is not with a hormonal expert. It's with a board certified orthapedic surgeon so I could pose questions to him about bone density, length of bones, etc.

For the record, he was the one who actually changed my mind about this whole topic and made me rethink my stance on it. I actually feel that much more testing and research needs to be done before transgender people compete in combat sports, despite the fact that there are a couple already competing. It's not because "Doh, he used to have a peener!" either. It's about having a complete study done with complete testing on skeletal structure, what the actual percentage is of the decrease in bone and muscle density,etc. Because there are so few professional athletes in the transgender community, I think current expert opinion is kind of limited. 

3/8/13 11:28 AM
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Poop Doodle
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Poop Doodle - Check out 'Renee' on Netflix about Renee Richards (tennis). People were mad when a former (huge) dude was hitting tennis balls at teen girls. Punching, kicking, etc is a whole other world. Interesting quandary. Phone Post
Then again, there are weight classes in MMA. Phone Post
3/8/13 11:32 AM
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Johnzandt - Perfect example of how the science should lead the opinion. I, myself, though she would have a distinct physical advantage, but after reading the experts testimony I now completely agree with Miss Fallon and think she should be allowed to compete in WMMA. Cheers, great read.

Ok Tom Cruise.... answer this - can it get pregnant and have a baby?

Then it is not a woman.

Science does not understand morality. Science is responsible for crack, should we all become crack heads?



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