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UnderGround Forums >> TOP SEX REASSIGNMENT DOCS WEIGH IN ON FALLON FOX


3/8/13 12:12 PM
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Aaron Becker
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Well, it's awesome that just because people disagree with two Doctors who are going to be incredibly biased that they're getting argued with and having their intelligence called into question. Get an independent study or a few endocrinologists, you know the doctors who would have some authoritative information on the subject and be far more objective, and I might agree that he can fight women.

One of my friends is a psychiatrist, gets good money from a few pharma companies to do lectures about some of their medications in his free time. He only does these seminars to further his income and increase the number of people who come to see him to get medicated and further an agenda. Not saying these gender reassignment doctors are furthering an agenda, but I know firsthand that doctors will stretch things for their own benefit. Why would a gender reassignment doctor say in any way that "No, they're still men", that would absolutely hurt business for them because people go to these doctors to become women, not just look like them.


What a bizarre reply. I don't see why they would necessarily lie. They have nothing to gain by taking a stance here, at least nothing significant.

actually she does have alot to gain and alot to lose. The doctor is transgender herself and she performs the procedures for money
3/8/13 12:13 PM
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Aaron Becker
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toolverine - 
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Nitecrawler - Hillary Williams:

I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.


I still think it's weird to have you penis sliced like a banana and shoved up into your body.

I guess I am among the masses that are scientifically illiterate.

How do you feel about a ring of skin around your donger being cut off for God?


I believe it's to prevent infections
3/8/13 12:13 PM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post

I don't think you're right. There. Now what?

Haha you have absolutely nothing. You interviewed 2 plastic surgeons who do lipo and rhinoplasty(nose jobs) all day long on an endocrine topic. I called you on it and you have no argument for your wasted day. Next time do some research before you consult "experts". Phone Post

Try reading my comments to Brandable. I don't bother replying to you that way because you're a hostile person. Lose the hostility and I won't give you empty answers.

I'm not hostile. I don't know you I'm sure you're probably a really nice person. I just think you presented the public a poor article by interviewing surgeons when you clearly should have been interviewing endocrinologists. You should take responsibility for presenting something that has no merit. The public is very impressionable and they think that these surgeons you interviewed are experts. Just own up to your mistake like a responsible journalist would. Phone Post

This is indeed a hostile response, as has been your whole approach in engaging me in conversation:

If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail.

Furthermore, the people I interviewed are indeed experts on transgenders, of which Fallon happens to be one. Something that has no merit--I disagree with you. These physicians presented facts which will more than likely end up being validated by an endocrinologist. How do I know this? Because I'm in the medical field, but I will satisfy the need for validation.

3/8/13 12:14 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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I can't imagine why a Sexual Reassignment Doctor would side with someone who purchased her product.
3/8/13 12:15 PM
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cheesesteak
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Say all you will about no difference in musculature...But to me, there is a very obvious difference in skeletal structure....Fallon appears to have athicker rib cage and neck...Also the large muscles like, quads, lats hamstrings are generally longer in genetic males and I'm not sure because you've changed your gender , the length  of the muscles change. 

3/8/13 12:15 PM
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6ULDV8
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So when every WMMA league and weight class that happens to have a transgender, happens to have a transgender champion, would that be cool with everyone?

 

 

3/8/13 12:16 PM
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Crooklyn
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Crooklyn is a she 0_o ! (shows how ignorant I am to general knowledge)
 
 
 
My question: I read that a man has an easier time cutting weight than a woman (water weight I assume with a small % of fat weight). On the same tangent, I also read a man can cut a higher percentage of weight. Is this true.
 
 
 
IF the above statement is true, does a transgender (male to female) posses a possible measurable advantage in that regard (whether it be slight or significant). Do we know scientifically or is it an educated guess?

Testosterone aids men in cutting weight. Fallon doesn't produce it from anywhere other than her adrenal gland, just like a female. In addition to that, she took test blockers and is now on estrogen for the rest of her life. She carries much more fat and actually has to work at gaining muscle and keeping it. It is also physiologically harder for her to cut weight now.


My uneducated ass read as much as it could way beyond what this forum offers on the subjects and I am still skeptical.

Does she retain all her male attributes in function to her muscular, skeletal and everything else as a male counterpart (after several years of continual hormonal therapy). Definitive No.

Does she lose it all completely to the level a female would have since birth or does she still maintain a certain advantage. Possibly.

From everything I have read, she loses many male attributes, but I cannot mater of factly as a layman say she loses 100% of any advantage she would have once had. I don't think this debate will ever finish with a clear answer.

That is exactly why I'm still on the fence about this and leaning toward the "con" side of the argument. There is NO conclusive study that shows how much is lost or retained. That's my problem with the whole situation. People automatically assume because I don't say "Ban that tranny" that I'm fully supporting her. I feel that with more research, will come the answers needed to properly address whether she should be fighting women in a combat sport.

3/8/13 12:18 PM
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Crooklyn
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

3/8/13 12:28 PM
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UGSlapshot
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Aaron Becker - I don't care what has been done in the last 6-7 years, she shouldn't be fighting girls. I don't think that a girls punch or kick can do as much damage to her as it could to a real girl



MB: Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

And you believe that shit?


Look Just because you mutilate your penis and pop estrogen that does not make you a woman, period.

It makes you a fucked up dude with psychological issues, a shit ton of unnatural estrogen and no dick.

I don't really care if they can simulate being a woman well, they are still not female.

Fight men or don't fight. Phone Post
3/8/13 12:31 PM
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UGSlapshot
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

Women don't have balls and they have testosterone although I'll concede not very much.

He still has a physical advantage over females especially because he's training. Phone Post
3/8/13 12:33 PM
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Crooklyn
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

Women don't have balls and they have testosterone although I'll concede not very much.

He still has a physical advantage over females especially because he's training. Phone Post

Exactly. Fallon's levels are the same as a woman, because she only produces test from her adrenal gland, the same as a woman. 

How does "training" give her an advantage?

3/8/13 12:34 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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You can either play the hand that you are dealt in life, or you can try to stack the deck.

Or I suppose that in extreme cases you can fold'em, and hope to get dealt a better hand next time.
3/8/13 12:43 PM
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likatiga
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Edited: 03/08/13 12:43 PM
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quote didn't work, was supposed to quote crook:

"That is exactly why I'm still on the fence about this and leaning toward the "con" side of the argument. There is NO conclusive study that shows how much is lost or retained. That's my problem with the whole situation. People automatically assume because I don't say "Ban that tranny" that I'm fully supporting her. I feel that with more research, will come the answers needed to properly address whether she should be fighting women in a combat sport."

This is what has me on the fence but leaning towards no.

All the expert opinions I've read have stated things that leave too many questions. If there's even a slight possibility that Fallon has an advantage, then it's unfair to her opponents.

I'm all for the choice she made to make the change, and applaud her for it, but it's unfair for her to put others in danger.
3/8/13 12:43 PM
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

Women don't have balls and they have testosterone although I'll concede not very much.

He still has a physical advantage over females especially because he's training. Phone Post

Exactly. Fallon's levels are the same as a woman, because she only produces test from her adrenal gland, the same as a woman. 

How does "training" give her an advantage?


because her skeletal structure is that of a mans along with a thicker man neck and naturally longer muscle bellies
3/8/13 12:44 PM
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cheesesteak
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also more than likely the ability to take a punch like a man.
3/8/13 12:46 PM
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likatiga
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Oh, and Letibleu,

Yes, Crooklyn is a lady.

Has she always been one? Hmmm...
3/8/13 12:46 PM
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

Women don't have balls and they have testosterone although I'll concede not very much.

He still has a physical advantage over females especially because he's training. Phone Post

Exactly. Fallon's levels are the same as a woman, because she only produces test from her adrenal gland, the same as a woman. 

How does "training" give her an advantage?

But HE is still a man, period.

Testosterone and estrogen are not the only chemical factors in muscle density and muscle type.

We have a significant amount of other hormones that play a part in muscular structure and define men from women.

The facts are the facts, HE is not a she HE is simulating being a she and that is not good enough for me. Phone Post
3/8/13 12:47 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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cheesesteak - also more than likely the ability to take a punch like a man.

I dunno, man, chicks are just about impossible to knock out.

I'm not gonna give up, though.
3/8/13 12:47 PM
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ipponBJJ
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Does Fallon have ovaries and a uterus? Every woman I know does (unless removed for health reasons).
3/8/13 12:47 PM
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Crooklyn
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?

No. She doesn't have testicles any more.

Women don't have balls and they have testosterone although I'll concede not very much.

He still has a physical advantage over females especially because he's training. Phone Post

Exactly. Fallon's levels are the same as a woman, because she only produces test from her adrenal gland, the same as a woman. 

How does "training" give her an advantage?


because her skeletal structure is that of a mans along with a thicker man neck and naturally longer muscle bellies

Of all the things listed that decrease with the hormone therapy, the one that likeley decreases the most is muscle mass. I will give you skeletal structure, as that is one of the factors that has me inclined to stay away from letting her compete.

3/8/13 12:49 PM
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Hahaha Phone Post
3/8/13 12:49 PM
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6ULDV8
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So again, what would happen if this were sanctioned and then sometime down the road every WMMA division that has a trangender also happens to have a transgender as the champion of that weight class?

 

Like this becomes a thing and a lot of dudes go 'Hmmm' and decide that all this time they were future WMMA champions trapped inside men's bodies.

 

Would that be deemed acceptable and just a coincidence?

 

**Edited for bad punctuation.**

3/8/13 12:50 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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*disclaimer* please don't vote me down too much, I've never laid a hand on a woman nor would I.

Seriously though, chick fighters seem to be able to take a shot better than guys. I know the power of the punches have something to do with it, but Cyborg looks like she hits like a truck and her opponents still don't go out.
3/8/13 12:56 PM
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post

I don't think you're right. There. Now what?

Haha you have absolutely nothing. You interviewed 2 plastic surgeons who do lipo and rhinoplasty(nose jobs) all day long on an endocrine topic. I called you on it and you have no argument for your wasted day. Next time do some research before you consult "experts". Phone Post

Try reading my comments to Brandable. I don't bother replying to you that way because you're a hostile person. Lose the hostility and I won't give you empty answers.

I'm not hostile. I don't know you I'm sure you're probably a really nice person. I just think you presented the public a poor article by interviewing surgeons when you clearly should have been interviewing endocrinologists. You should take responsibility for presenting something that has no merit. The public is very impressionable and they think that these surgeons you interviewed are experts. Just own up to your mistake like a responsible journalist would. Phone Post

This is indeed a hostile response, as has been your whole approach in engaging me in conversation:

If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail.

Furthermore, the people I interviewed are indeed experts on transgenders, of which Fallon happens to be one. Something that has no merit--I disagree with you. These physicians presented facts which will more than likely end up being validated by an endocrinologist. How do I know this? Because I'm in the medical field, but I will satisfy the need for validation.

No the people you interviewed are plastic surgeons. Plain and simple you won't own up to your mistake. Plastic surgeons are not experts in transgenders period. Phone Post
3/8/13 1:00 PM
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HexRei
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post

I don't think you're right. There. Now what?

Haha you have absolutely nothing. You interviewed 2 plastic surgeons who do lipo and rhinoplasty(nose jobs) all day long on an endocrine topic. I called you on it and you have no argument for your wasted day. Next time do some research before you consult "experts". Phone Post

Try reading my comments to Brandable. I don't bother replying to you that way because you're a hostile person. Lose the hostility and I won't give you empty answers.

I'm not hostile. I don't know you I'm sure you're probably a really nice person. I just think you presented the public a poor article by interviewing surgeons when you clearly should have been interviewing endocrinologists. You should take responsibility for presenting something that has no merit. The public is very impressionable and they think that these surgeons you interviewed are experts. Just own up to your mistake like a responsible journalist would. Phone Post

This is indeed a hostile response, as has been your whole approach in engaging me in conversation:

If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail.

Furthermore, the people I interviewed are indeed experts on transgenders, of which Fallon happens to be one. Something that has no merit--I disagree with you. These physicians presented facts which will more than likely end up being validated by an endocrinologist. How do I know this? Because I'm in the medical field, but I will satisfy the need for validation.

No the people you interviewed are plastic surgeons. Plain and simple you won't own up to your mistake. Plastic surgeons are not experts in transgenders period. Phone Post

They probably know as much or more about it than the typical MD. Certainly more than you or I.

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