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UnderGround Forums >> TOP SEX REASSIGNMENT DOCS WEIGH IN ON FALLON FOX


3/8/13 1:00 PM
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UGCTT_EnderTL
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Chupacabro -  "MB: Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart"

Most measures....fairly comparable.....probably end up

The needle on my bullshit meter is all the way in the red. Phone Post

"Most measures....fairly comparable.....probably end up"

 

Doctors don't phrase things this way because they are 100% certain, and responsible doctors don't dicuss things they aren't 100% certain about.

I don't buy into the "scientific expertise" of people who are covering their ass at the same time they are giving us "facts".

3/8/13 1:04 PM
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6ULDV8
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Yeah, use modality like that on anything remotely following the scientific method.

 

You'd be laughed out of the room.

3/8/13 1:12 PM
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HexRei
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Actually doctors often speak in these terms because things are very rarely 100% when talking about biology, they tend to fall in a probabilistic range. When I broke my knee my doctor told me that "most patients with this type of injury gain back most or all strength with the right rehab". He didn't speak in absolute terms, why would he, he's not psychic.
3/8/13 1:20 PM
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SC MMA MD
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Jweinberg -
Nitecrawler - Hillary Williams:

I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.


Beautifully stated by Hillary.  I agree.

This. Phone Post
3/8/13 1:23 PM
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Crooklyn
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KingstonHawkeJr - Crook, you're slipping big time right now. You know like I know that if this was simply an educational piece and wasn't meant to reflect your own personal opinion than you have no business at all defending the position. Clarifying is fine, but saying "the moment her testicles were removed, the playing field was leveled, hormonally" isn't doing that... at all.

You admittedly don't know that to be true. Overeem was abnormally low his last fight. Does that mean he had no residual advantages from all those years of juicing?

Maybe you made a mistake by breaking up your story into two pieces and therefor presenting something that was ridiculously far from comprehensive. But, you did that. Just say, you made a mistake and leave it at all. Insulting people who disagree with you isn't helping your cause.

Who have I insulted? That's right. Nobody. And as far as testosterone goes, I do know that to be true. Fallon no longer makes test from anywhere other than her adrenal gland. 

3/8/13 1:25 PM
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Crooklyn
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post

I don't think you're right. There. Now what?

Haha you have absolutely nothing. You interviewed 2 plastic surgeons who do lipo and rhinoplasty(nose jobs) all day long on an endocrine topic. I called you on it and you have no argument for your wasted day. Next time do some research before you consult "experts". Phone Post

Try reading my comments to Brandable. I don't bother replying to you that way because you're a hostile person. Lose the hostility and I won't give you empty answers.

I'm not hostile. I don't know you I'm sure you're probably a really nice person. I just think you presented the public a poor article by interviewing surgeons when you clearly should have been interviewing endocrinologists. You should take responsibility for presenting something that has no merit. The public is very impressionable and they think that these surgeons you interviewed are experts. Just own up to your mistake like a responsible journalist would. Phone Post

This is indeed a hostile response, as has been your whole approach in engaging me in conversation:

If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail.

Furthermore, the people I interviewed are indeed experts on transgenders, of which Fallon happens to be one. Something that has no merit--I disagree with you. These physicians presented facts which will more than likely end up being validated by an endocrinologist. How do I know this? Because I'm in the medical field, but I will satisfy the need for validation.

No the people you interviewed are plastic surgeons. Plain and simple you won't own up to your mistake. Plastic surgeons are not experts in transgenders period. Phone Post

Both physicians are plastic surgeons. Dr. Bowers is also an obstetrician/gynecologist. Dr. Leis is also a general medicine physician. I'd say they're viable experts. I get it. You don't agree. I don't agree with you.

3/8/13 1:26 PM
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JSF1984
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The point of that picture is that Fallon's opponent is a naturally born female. For all of you saying Fallon caries a muscle mass or physical advantage, despite what medical professionals went on record with, just take a good look at that pic, or any pic of a current 135-145 pound female fighter. For the record, Fallon is the same height as Ronda Rousey and fights at 145, the same weight Ronda used to fight at.


First of all, one medical professional - who is also transgender, said that. Not exactly the pillar of credibility. These people are so confused in life they want to change who theyre naturally born as. That thought alone should make you realize theyre prone to irrational thoughts. Combine that with the fact that they know this is big news, and he gets to have his name out in the media, and hopefully you can see why 'the medical professionals who went on record' did what they did.

Secondly, you cant judge everything by height/weight. That is a silly, silly statement. There's 30+ years of grwoth as a man. If you really think that all gets reveresed with a few months of estrogen pills, you're sorely mistaken.


Actually, if you bothered reading, I interviewed TWO, and they both commented the same. There's NOT 30+ years growth as a man. Fallon underwent hormone therapy for FOUR years PRIOR to her SRS 7 years ago.


Completely miss my post about Fallon getting caught and busted, and forced to come out before someone outed him? Selective journalism at it's finest.


Selective journalism? The whole point of THIS piece was to get expert opinion from the surgeons that know the most about this procedure and about transgender people. It was to cover JUST that topic. It states that. I will be featuring another physician in my next piece who DISAGREES with Fallon being allowed to fight, so take your selective buillshit and place it somewhere the sun doesn't dare put it's rays upon.

You should interview endocrinologists not plastic surgeons. The physicians you interviewed are no more knowledgable about the effects of hormones on a person than your run of the mill ER doc. So their words hold absolutely no merit and you wasted an afternoon on a pointless interview. Phone Post

Really? These doctors know nothing you say? Well color me confused.

Your response was limited because you know I'm right. If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail. Phone Post

I don't think you're right. There. Now what?

Haha you have absolutely nothing. You interviewed 2 plastic surgeons who do lipo and rhinoplasty(nose jobs) all day long on an endocrine topic. I called you on it and you have no argument for your wasted day. Next time do some research before you consult "experts". Phone Post

Try reading my comments to Brandable. I don't bother replying to you that way because you're a hostile person. Lose the hostility and I won't give you empty answers.

I'm not hostile. I don't know you I'm sure you're probably a really nice person. I just think you presented the public a poor article by interviewing surgeons when you clearly should have been interviewing endocrinologists. You should take responsibility for presenting something that has no merit. The public is very impressionable and they think that these surgeons you interviewed are experts. Just own up to your mistake like a responsible journalist would. Phone Post

This is indeed a hostile response, as has been your whole approach in engaging me in conversation:

If you're an RN like you say you know I'm absolutely 100% right and you came back with that sorry ass response to throw people off the trail.

Furthermore, the people I interviewed are indeed experts on transgenders, of which Fallon happens to be one. Something that has no merit--I disagree with you. These physicians presented facts which will more than likely end up being validated by an endocrinologist. How do I know this? Because I'm in the medical field, but I will satisfy the need for validation.

No the people you interviewed are plastic surgeons. Plain and simple you won't own up to your mistake. Plastic surgeons are not experts in transgenders period. Phone Post

They probably know as much or more about it than the typical MD. Certainly more than you or I.
Doubtful they know as much as a typical MD but probably more than you or I(I would hope). Surgeons learn and forget a lot about medicine and for good reason they have to keep up with rapidly progressing techniques or they will fall behind quickly. I just wanted the people reading this thread to know these guys are far from experts and I would say most advanced practice nurses know more than them on the subject. Phone Post
3/8/13 1:31 PM
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6ULDV8
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if tested, she would probably end up in....

3/8/13 1:31 PM
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PrettyBoy
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This thread is turning into a nightmare for the OP. Phone Post
3/8/13 1:40 PM
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Crooklyn
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PrettyBoy -  This thread is turning into a nightmare for the OP. Phone Post

I'd say it's a great success. There's a lot of intelligent discussion happening in here. 

3/8/13 1:41 PM
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blacksamurai
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BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?
Well since Fallon doesn't have balls she can't produce test did you sleep through High School biology? Phone Post
3/8/13 1:42 PM
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Trojan Rubber Guard
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slickmma - Would her test levels go up if she stopped taking the test blockers and estrogen?
This was answered elsewhere, but the answer is no. Fallon does not need testosterone blockers anymore because she no longer has testes. She will take estrogen for the rest of her life but the amount depends on her and her doctor. It's sort of like a man who needs to take testosterone because his body doesn't produce enough. Phone Post
3/8/13 1:44 PM
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3/8/13 1:45 PM
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ShoreBreaker420
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I wouldn't bang bro Phone Post
3/8/13 1:46 PM
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KingOfFighters
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He will never be a woman, men will never try to court with him, because he'll never give them offspring. He'll never be recognized as a woman by men ever.

If I think I was born as superman, change my name to superman, I should expect everyone to think I'm superman?
3/8/13 1:48 PM
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blacksamurai
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Brandable -

What a ridiculous story. Let this shit die. 33 years of development as a man does not go away with 2 years of hormone therapy. This guy has many advantages over a naturally progressed woman, and this whole charade is fucking disgusting.  Really fucking sick and tired of this bullshit PC world we live in. This shouldn't have ever made the news. Does he have ovaries, and a uterus? No? Then he is a man. Does he have 2 X chromosomes? No? Then it's a fucking man. 

Let's not forget the only reason Fallon came out, was because a coach caught him, and the coach was going to tell everyone, because he thought it wasnt fair. This wasnt an act of integrity or honor, or him making a mark in the LGBT community, this was pure cheating, he got caught, and now the media is helping him spin it so that he is the victim. Everyone that has reported on this story has failed to even bring that up. Hack journalism at it's best. This is why people typically have to go to college and then intern for some years, but in MMA, just setup a wordpress blog and you're a 'pro'.

But sure, let a man beat up on a woman, who cares right? We're only trying to legitimize the sport, let's throw away the last 17 of work so some mentally diseased dude can beat the shit out of women, all because some of you dont have the spine to admit that he is a twisted fuck. 

Good call.

Even the federal government knows they are twisted dummy i know a couple on social security they can go into any social security office all over America, and pick up a "crazy check" there is no conspiracy even Uncle Sam knows they are sick, and no employer wants the headache of hiring them... Phone Post
3/8/13 1:49 PM
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HexRei
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Johnzandt - Perfect example of how the science should lead the opinion. I, myself, though she would have a distinct physical advantage, but after reading the experts testimony I now completely agree with Miss Fallon and think she should be allowed to compete in WMMA. Cheers, great read.

Ok Tom Cruise.... answer this - can it get pregnant and have a baby?

Then it is not a woman.

Science does not understand morality. Science is responsible for crack, should we all become crack heads?



'Ok Tom Cruise.... answer this - can it get pregnant and have a baby?'

Alright... um... John Travolta... are women who can't have babies not women?

 

In general this is a very difficult topic. Definitely needs more research before she should be allowed to compete again (nothing personal against her).


Quoting this for the guy who just claimed that it was about bearing children
3/8/13 1:50 PM
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blacksamurai
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RyannVonDoom -
Nitecrawler - Hillary Williams:

I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.

That's funny because others who have competed against her said they figured she was on somethingor was a trans. Phone Post
Wow where can i read this? Phone Post
3/8/13 1:52 PM
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OGT
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All this transgender talk has really got me thinking... Anyone know a doctor that could hook it up for cheap? Phone Post
3/8/13 2:16 PM
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BJ bashed into McDs mincemeat
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Does she have a fully functioning vagina? Phone Post
3/8/13 2:20 PM
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Slevin Kalevra
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if you are born a man, you should not be allowed to fight women, period
3/8/13 2:27 PM
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Gullivers Travels
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lol at "fairly comparable". ANY advantage gained from her former biology should eliminate the ability to fight other women.
3/8/13 2:30 PM
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BrandCarey
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blacksamurai - 
BrandCarey - While I respect the fact that the doctor has intimate knowledge with the procedure and the SRS process, I believe asking a trasgendered doctor who is a leading force in these type of suregeries their opinion on whether or not this is acceptable is a huge conflict of interest. This is the same as Big Tobacco doing studies on the effect of cigarettes. A person with a vested interest in the matter is hardly an unbiased opinion, no matter how hard they try.

Furthermore, why has no one talked about what happens if Fallon stops taking the hormones? I do not claim to know the answer but it would stand to reason that Fallon's body would begin to produce testosterone at a level that someone born a man would. Granted this would not immediately reverse the estrogen treatments but I would have to guess it would be somewhat similar to a normal woman taking testosterone.

Anyone have info on this?
Well since Fallon doesn't have balls she can't produce test did you sleep through High School biology? Phone Post

Sleep? No.

Pay attention? Also no.

Hence me asking a question and admitting that I was guessing. The fact that Fallon no longer has gonads was mentioned to me and I conceded this point.

3/8/13 2:33 PM
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yomamafool
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Aaron Becker - biased doctors will be biased towards their kind of patients. It's good for business

can we get an unbiased opinion reported?
3/8/13 2:33 PM
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RyannVonDoom - 
Nitecrawler - Hillary Williams:

I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.

That's funny because others who have competed against her said they figured she was on somethingor was a trans. Phone Post

Keep in mind, when Hillary is competing she is a high level Alpha Female.  She is stronger than most guys her weight.  I wouldnt be shocked if Hillary was stronger than Fallon as a male or female.  Hillary was like all state in every sport she played in high school and when she was competing hard she was doing BJJ every day and strength and condidtioning too.  

 

So as far as Hillary's opinion of the girl not being too strong, it is a very skewed opinion from a really fucking strong girl. 


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