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S&C UnderGround >> Lifting & bulking for BJJ


3/12/13 2:27 AM
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Wet
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None So Blind - 
Wet - In BJJ, NOTHING is more important than your PULLING movements (Rows, Hammer Curls, Pull Ups).

Bench press? No. Maybe elbows-in dumbbell presses to mimic posturing up movement. But other than that, when do you need to press in BJJ?

Squat and Deadlift? High rep squats might be good just to work the core and get a good cardio workout, but other than that, what do you need leg strength for when rolling?

I once heard a brown belt tell me that his least favorite newbie to roll with was not a spastic karate or kung fu dude, not a super aggressive D-1 wrestler, and not a judo guy....but a guy with a 400+ pound deadlift. Guys that came in with that level of strength or higher made all the mistakes that any newbie makes, but once they wised up, breaking their posture was a bitch....

LOL please, try grappling with an aggresive D-1 wrestler and then a guy with a 400 pound dead lift and tell me which is harder.
3/12/13 2:40 AM
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Taku
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"You need pull to balance push or you'll get injured. You dont need push to balance pull"  <--This sentence makes no sense.

If one balances the other, then that implies that they must be equally important.

Balanced training means not over (or under) emphasizing any particular muscle group.

The benefits of increasing muscular strength are numerous. Increasing over-all body strength will improve your potential to exert maximum strength, explosive power and muscular endurance during competition. It will also assist in improving speed, agility, body composition (body fat levels), and injury prevention.

 A “functional' exercise is any exercise you do that makes you stronger. Read: any exercise that creates overload on a muscle and is done progressively is “functional.” Last time I checked, ALL muscle groups were important at some point for proper athletic skill execution and injury prevention.

TAKU


The entire body should be strengthened from top to bottom, and back to front.

 

 

   

3/12/13 9:28 AM
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XmmaAddictX
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Taku -

"You need pull to balance push or you'll get injured. You dont need push to balance pull"  <--This sentence makes no sense.

If one balances the other, then that implies that they must be equally important.

Balanced training means not over (or under) emphasizing any particular muscle group.

The benefits of increasing muscular strength are numerous. Increasing over-all body strength will improve your potential to exert maximum strength, explosive power and muscular endurance during competition. It will also assist in improving speed, agility, body composition (body fat levels), and injury prevention.

 A “functional' exercise is any exercise you do that makes you stronger. Read: any exercise that creates overload on a muscle and is done progressively is “functional.” Last time I checked, ALL muscle groups were important at some point for proper athletic skill execution and injury prevention.

TAKU


The entire body should be strengthened from top to bottom, and back to front.

 

 

   

Pretty much sums up my goals and reasons for wanting to add a bit of muscle and strength.

I know bjj is mainly about technique and not muscling your training partners around to force a technique to work however, in a competition scenario it doesnt hurt to have some explosive strength and muscle endurance too.

Opponents that have great technique are difficult to deal with but opponents that are physically stronger, faster, and more explosive AND have great technique are a nightmare. Phone Post
3/12/13 9:39 AM
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None So Blind
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Wet - 
None So Blind - 
Wet - In BJJ, NOTHING is more important than your PULLING movements (Rows, Hammer Curls, Pull Ups).

Bench press? No. Maybe elbows-in dumbbell presses to mimic posturing up movement. But other than that, when do you need to press in BJJ?

Squat and Deadlift? High rep squats might be good just to work the core and get a good cardio workout, but other than that, what do you need leg strength for when rolling?

I once heard a brown belt tell me that his least favorite newbie to roll with was not a spastic karate or kung fu dude, not a super aggressive D-1 wrestler, and not a judo guy....but a guy with a 400+ pound deadlift. Guys that came in with that level of strength or higher made all the mistakes that any newbie makes, but once they wised up, breaking their posture was a bitch....

LOL please, try grappling with an aggresive D-1 wrestler and then a guy with a 400 pound dead lift and tell me which is harder.

I didn't. He did. :-)

His story (however humorously he told it) was that wrestlers all made the same attacks and mistakes, as did strong guys - but strong guys were just a pain in the ass to him.

Not saying they were better, more technical, etc. - just a pain in the ass. And since I think it's probably easier to get a big deadlift than it is to be a D-1 killer...well, you do the math.
3/12/13 9:46 AM
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CMX
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So you dont use your legs in sweeps, triangles, armbars, guillotines and body triangles? You dont use your chest when fighting for underhooks, pushing to create space or fighting wrist control ? Focusing on the main lifts should always be your goal Phone Post
3/12/13 11:24 AM
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gusto
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Wet - 
gusto - "what do you need leg strength for when rolling?"

standing up in guard/breaking guard

Unless your INCREDIBLY weak there is no reason you shouldnt be able to stand up in guard without having to start squatting

Im not talking about doing it one time. or standing up slowly and methodically
3/12/13 1:19 PM
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LCSULLA
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If the OP wants to get bigger, he will have to do leg work.
3/12/13 1:30 PM
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JamesDean57
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Wet - 
JamesDean57 - You got to have balance (push/pull) or you're going to get injured.

No. You need pull to balance push or you'll get injured. You dont need push to balance pull

This is just a stupid statement.
3/12/13 2:29 PM
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Wet
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JamesDean57 - 
Wet - 
JamesDean57 - You got to have balance (push/pull) or you're going to get injured.

No. You need pull to balance push or you'll get injured. You dont need push to balance pull

This is just a stupid statement.

"Stupid" is someone commenting on something they clearly dont understand. Take a few physiology classes and get back to me on it.
3/12/13 2:40 PM
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Wet
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Taku - 

"You need pull to balance push or you'll get injured. You dont need push to balance pull"  <--This sentence makes no sense.

If one balances the other, then that implies that they must be equally important.

Balanced training means not over (or under) emphasizing any particular muscle group.

The benefits of increasing muscular strength are numerous. Increasing over-all body strength will improve your potential to exert maximum strength, explosive power and muscular endurance during competition. It will also assist in improving speed, agility, body composition (body fat levels), and injury prevention.

 A “functional' exercise is any exercise you do that makes you stronger. Read: any exercise that creates overload on a muscle and is done progressively is “functional.” Last time I checked, ALL muscle groups were important at some point for proper athletic skill execution and injury prevention.

TAKU


The entire body should be strengthened from top to bottom, and back to front.

 

 

   


They are NOT equally important because the body is not designed equally from front to back. You're MUCH more likely to injure yourself from a lack of pulling then a lack of pushing movements.
The debate wasnt that you never needed ANY pushing movements, it was that you shouldnt worry about injuring yourself from doing too many pulling movements in ratio to pushing.
If you notice, i did recommend dumbbell presses with elbows-in, but there are much more functional lifts that would benefit from a standard bench press that so many people on here are recommending when you NEVER have your arms in that position while grappling, which makes in a very unfunctional lift to use
3/12/13 2:44 PM
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Wet
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gusto - 
Wet - 
gusto - "what do you need leg strength for when rolling?"

standing up in guard/breaking guard

Unless your INCREDIBLY weak there is no reason you shouldnt be able to stand up in guard without having to start squatting

Im not talking about doing it one time. or standing up slowly and methodically

Not talking about doing it one time? How many times do you plan on getting caught in someones guard during a match, 100? 200? 300 times? Because if thats happenind then you've got alot more to worry about than building a squat lol
3/12/13 2:52 PM
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Wet
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None So Blind - 
Wet - 
None So Blind - 
Wet - In BJJ, NOTHING is more important than your PULLING movements (Rows, Hammer Curls, Pull Ups).

Bench press? No. Maybe elbows-in dumbbell presses to mimic posturing up movement. But other than that, when do you need to press in BJJ?

Squat and Deadlift? High rep squats might be good just to work the core and get a good cardio workout, but other than that, what do you need leg strength for when rolling?

I once heard a brown belt tell me that his least favorite newbie to roll with was not a spastic karate or kung fu dude, not a super aggressive D-1 wrestler, and not a judo guy....but a guy with a 400+ pound deadlift. Guys that came in with that level of strength or higher made all the mistakes that any newbie makes, but once they wised up, breaking their posture was a bitch....

LOL please, try grappling with an aggresive D-1 wrestler and then a guy with a 400 pound dead lift and tell me which is harder.

I didn't. He did. :-)

His story (however humorously he told it) was that wrestlers all made the same attacks and mistakes, as did strong guys - but strong guys were just a pain in the ass to him.

Not saying they were better, more technical, etc. - just a pain in the ass. And since I think it's probably easier to get a big deadlift than it is to be a D-1 killer...well, you do the math.

A pain in the ass is a guy with good balance and years of wrestling experience. Guys with big lifts (not that i consider 400+ deadlift to be anything big) try to muscle you and fight against any movement you make, which in turn allows you to easily bait them into moving to the positions you want them to be in. I think the guy was just talking out his ass
3/12/13 2:56 PM
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Wet
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Edited: 03/12/13 2:57 PM
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As much as i LOVE traditional strength training/powerlifting and would never give it up, functional training that focuses more on static holds and clenches is more beneficial to grappling.
3/12/13 3:44 PM
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dalexan242
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I would rather roll with a strong wrestler/judoka than a stronger untrained person just because the untrained person is much more likely to injury me than someone with grappling experience. So from that perspective, a really strong untrained person is easily my least favorite person to roll with as well. But not because they are better, just because they are more likely to injure me.
3/12/13 8:02 PM
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gusto
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Edited: 03/12/13 8:02 PM
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<blockquote>Wet - <blockquote>gusto - <blockquote>Wet - <blockquote>gusto - "what do you need leg strength for when rolling?"<br /><br />standing up in guard/breaking guard</blockquote><br />Unless your INCREDIBLY weak there is no reason you shouldnt be able to stand up in guard without having to start squatting</blockquote><br />Im not talking about doing it one time. or standing up slowly and methodically</blockquote><br /> Not talking about doing it one time? How many times do you plan on getting caught in someones guard during a match, 100? 200? 300 times? Because if thats happenind then you've got alot more to worry about than building a squat lol</blockquote>

I hope you are an awesome fucking grappler to be talking shit like this
3/12/13 9:38 PM
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Taku
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Edited: 03/12/13 9:39 PM
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First: As an S&C coach I must consider individual genetic limitations and abilities, needs, goals and preferences, as well as environmental influences when creating programs. In other words it all depends on the individual.

Second: There is no skill transfer from a weight room exercise to a totally different athletic skill done in competition. The principle of specificity clearly states that for a positive transfer to occur, exactness in a number of factors must be present. The fact is, no weight room exercise exactly replicates any sport skill (other than the sports of weightlifting and power lifting). That is why one should practice his / her sport skills separately, then generally improve total-body weight room strength.

So...although you think that one type of bench press is more functional to grappling, in fact it is not. Getting the muscles as strong as possible with the best exercises to accomplish this goal is the first priority. Then practice the specific skills you are iterested in improving in realistic settings against realistic resistance. In the case of grappling this would mean:

A. Introduce the skill

B. Isolate said skill to master the mechanics

C. integrate the new skill into your game in "alive" scenarios (spar / roll) against resistive opponents. 
 

TAKU

 

3/12/13 11:14 PM
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Wet
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Taku - 

First: As an S&C coach I must consider individual genetic limitations and abilities, needs, goals and preferences, as well as environmental influences when creating programs. In other words it all depends on the individual.

Second: There is no skill transfer from a weight room exercise to a totally different athletic skill done in competition. The principle of specificity clearly states that for a positive transfer to occur, exactness in a number of factors must be present. The fact is, no weight room exercise exactly replicates any sport skill (other than the sports of weightlifting and power lifting). That is why one should practice his / her sport skills separately, then generally improve total-body weight room strength.

So...although you think that one type of bench press is more functional to grappling, in fact it is not. Getting the muscles as strong as possible with the best exercises to accomplish this goal is the first priority. Then practice the specific skills you are iterested in improving in realistic settings against realistic resistance. In the case of grappling this would mean:

A. Introduce the skill

B. Isolate said skill to master the mechanics

C. integrate the new skill into your game in "alive" scenarios (spar / roll) against resistive opponents. 
 

TAKU

 


One type of bench press IS more functional to grappling. I dont see how you can even debate that.
So you're telling me that if i have two subjects of the exact same size and strength, but i have one do barbell bench presses and another guy do dumbbell presses with elbows-in, that over time they will both be able to posture up the same?
3/13/13 2:01 AM
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Taku
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Edited: 03/13/13 2:08 AM
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If each of your hypothetical subjects, trains with equal intensity, makes similar gains, and practices their techniques with an equal level of attention, then difference will be negligible.

However the likelyhood of having two subjects that are exact in any way is very low. You can train 100 people the exact same way and you will get 100 varied results. You can train 100 varied guys in BJJ and they will all find their own ways that work best for them on just about every technique.

You can believe whatever you like. This is the truth.

TAKU

P.S. Wet...I should tell you, so that you don't waste your time... you can't make me angry.

3/13/13 11:34 AM
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JBryan
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Taku, you make a lot of sense. Thank goodness you are patient. If can, can. If no can, no can. Eh!
3/13/13 11:45 AM
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gusto
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Wet - 
Taku - 

First: As an S&C coach I must consider individual genetic limitations and abilities, needs, goals and preferences, as well as environmental influences when creating programs. In other words it all depends on the individual.

Second: There is no skill transfer from a weight room exercise to a totally different athletic skill done in competition. The principle of specificity clearly states that for a positive transfer to occur, exactness in a number of factors must be present. The fact is, no weight room exercise exactly replicates any sport skill (other than the sports of weightlifting and power lifting). That is why one should practice his / her sport skills separately, then generally improve total-body weight room strength.

So...although you think that one type of bench press is more functional to grappling, in fact it is not. Getting the muscles as strong as possible with the best exercises to accomplish this goal is the first priority. Then practice the specific skills you are iterested in improving in realistic settings against realistic resistance. In the case of grappling this would mean:

A. Introduce the skill

B. Isolate said skill to master the mechanics

C. integrate the new skill into your game in "alive" scenarios (spar / roll) against resistive opponents. 
 

TAKU

 


One type of bench press IS more functional to grappling. I dont see how you can even debate that.
So you're telling me that if i have two subjects of the exact same size and strength, but i have one do barbell bench presses and another guy do dumbbell presses with elbows-in, that over time they will both be able to posture up the same?

this is some funny shit, now i know it's best to ignore you
3/13/13 11:55 AM
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Wet
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Taku - 

If each of your hypothetical subjects, trains with equal intensity, makes similar gains, and practices their techniques with an equal level of attention, then difference will be negligible.

However the likelyhood of having two subjects that are exact in any way is very low. You can train 100 people the exact same way and you will get 100 varied results. You can train 100 varied guys in BJJ and they will all find their own ways that work best for them on just about every technique.

You can believe whatever you like. This is the truth.

TAKU

P.S. Wet...I should tell you, so that you don't waste your time... you can't make me angry.


Thats the point. If they're doing two different lifts then they're not going to make "similar gains". One is going to help more than the other.

And nobody said that you're going to have two identical subjects in the real world, not that it matters, it was OBVIOUSLY just a scenario used to an experiment about the lifts.

Nobodey was debating how their techniques will develope over time, WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT POSTURING UP.

You seem to keep getting off the topic that is being discussed and start your own debate about something that nobody is even debating but you, then you try to argue your point on these debates as if someone was dissagreeing with you. Its pretty weird.

Not sure why you think i would try to make you or anyone else on here angry. Have i called you a name or insulted you in any way? Whats the worst thing ive said to you?
3/13/13 12:12 PM
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Taku
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Edited: 03/13/13 1:42 PM
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Wet,

I am not arguing at all. Just trying to have a discussion.

I made the comment about trying to make me angry, not as an accusation, but because I do not know you. I do not know what your motives are. I was just being clear, so if you were trolling, and hoping to get a rise out of someone, that you would know not to waste your time on me because it wont happen.

In your last post, you said "And nobody said that you're going to have two identical subjects in the real world, not that it matters, it was OBVIOUSLY just a scenario used to an experiment about the lifts." 

But in the one I reponded to you said "So you're telling me that if i have two subjects of the exact same size and strength".

Hence my response to the unlikelyness of this.

I understand exactly what it is you are saying, I just disagree. Yes someone will adapt differently to a dumbbell movement then a barbell movement. They are not the same thing. But if you get a lot stronger than you were (regardless of how) and then practice your technique (in this case posturing up) then in either case, the strength you have gained (which is general and not specific to the task) will help.

You may continue to argue this point if you wish. I am going to step asside from this part of the conversation. Ive said my piece.

PAU for NOW

TAKU 

3/13/13 12:16 PM
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1armedScissor
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Wet - In BJJ, NOTHING is more important than your PULLING movements (Rows, Hammer Curls, Pull Ups).

Bench press? No. Maybe elbows-in dumbbell presses to mimic posturing up movement. But other than that, when do you need to press in BJJ?

Squat and Deadlift? High rep squats might be good just to work the core and get a good cardio workout, but other than that, what do you need leg strength for when rolling?

You don't consider the deadlift to be a pulling movement?
3/13/13 12:25 PM
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Wet
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1armedScissor - 
Wet - In BJJ, NOTHING is more important than your PULLING movements (Rows, Hammer Curls, Pull Ups).

Bench press? No. Maybe elbows-in dumbbell presses to mimic posturing up movement. But other than that, when do you need to press in BJJ?

Squat and Deadlift? High rep squats might be good just to work the core and get a good cardio workout, but other than that, what do you need leg strength for when rolling?

You don't consider the deadlift to be a pulling movement?

I wouldnt consider it to be an upper body "pull" as much as a lower body lift
3/13/13 12:37 PM
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1armedScissor
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Are you saying it only develops lower body strength?

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