UnderGround Forums
 

BJJGround Forum >> Did Diaz/GSP prove that advantages are useless?


3/18/13 11:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
152 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34688
 

 

The argument for the modern point scoring system in BJJ is that it mimics the dominant positions one will need in a fight and rewards a competitor for achieving positions that would allow you to achieve the maximal amount of damage.

The advantage system is a tributary flowing off from that stream, rewarding competitors for almost getting to a position of control because theoretically, they'd be able to deliver slightly damage from those almosts. They can also be given for near subs.

Other than takedowns, GSP didn't score a single point on Diaz by IBJJF rules. He barely scored any advantages, but the few that he did were not for attempting submissions. Instead, he got to a lot of almost positions and he was completely unable to inflict any substantive damage with Nick playing about 90% sport BJJ. Instead, what damage GSP inflicted for the most part came on the feet. 

So doesn't this prove that near submissions are the only thing one should get advantages for? And by near, they should be very near. An advantage score is a non-score. It doesn't proceed your position in BJJ and it doesn't improve your ability to do damage in a fight. 

If the original intention of the scoring was to simulate combat and the sport still holds true to that creed, I say incentivize sub hunting in BJJ by sub attempt only advantages and double DQing guys who have no points or advantages at the end of regulation.

Not a new idea, but one Diaz/GSP really crystallized for me. 

3/18/13 11:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
152 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34689

As an aside it also occured to me while watching Hendricks/Condit that you should maybe get 1 point for being able to go from your back to your feet and disengage.

3/18/13 7:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jessy30
11 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/28/10
Posts: 735
Ttt. Im interested in this. I think you make a valid point. I would like to hear what others think. Phone Post
3/18/13 7:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matthieu Battle
118 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/8/09
Posts: 1428
Kneeblock - 

As an aside it also occured to me while watching Hendricks/Condit that you should maybe get 1 point for being able to go from your back to your feet and disengage.


while i can probably convinced that most advantages shouldn't be scored, i don't think just standing up should be worth a point. imagine the matches being won by being the first guy to jump to your feet after pulling gward.
3/18/13 7:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
xpat
27 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/04
Posts: 1497
Kneeblock - 

As an aside it also occured to me while watching Hendricks/Condit that you should maybe get 1 point for being able to go from your back to your feet and disengage.


FILA grappling rules cover this - 1 pt for escaping a dominant position (side, mount or back) to either the feet or a neutral ground position (only closed guard under current rule set).

But no advantages for attempted submissions (no advantages at all).
3/18/13 8:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoidsGracie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/23/11
Posts: 1087
Standing up just puts you back in the clinch or free movement phase and both are neutral areas. I don't think you should get points for just going back to neutral. Any points that are given should stick to the philosophy that you get points for putting yourself into a dominant position and your opponent in a more vulnerable one.
3/18/13 9:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ChipW
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/2/10
Posts: 1892
Kneeblock -

As an aside it also occured to me while watching Hendricks/Condit that you should maybe get 1 point for being able to go from your back to your feet and disengage.

I totally agree with that. Phone Post
3/18/13 10:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Veek
10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/18/13 10:20 PM
Member Since: 1/17/10
Posts: 244
When one of the player is from guard and goes to turtle, it used to be counted as an advantage for the top guy. Nowadays, i believe it's counted as a pass.

So according to the fight, GSP was outscoring Diaz by quite alot because most of the damage came when diaz turtled.
3/19/13 5:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Massa
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/18/05
Posts: 2641
Like the FILA rules, really don't like the huge advantage of pulling guard in IBJJF.
3/19/13 6:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Calibur1980
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/16/08
Posts: 601
Kneeblock -

 

The argument for the modern point scoring system in BJJ is that it mimics the dominant positions one will need in a fight and rewards a competitor for achieving positions that would allow you to achieve the maximal amount of damage.

The advantage system is a tributary flowing off from that stream, rewarding competitors for almost getting to a position of control because theoretically, they'd be able to deliver slightly damage from those almosts. They can also be given for near subs.

Other than takedowns, GSP didn't score a single point on Diaz by IBJJF rules. He barely scored any advantages, but the few that he did were not for attempting submissions. Instead, he got to a lot of almost positions and he was completely unable to inflict any substantive damage with Nick playing about 90% sport BJJ. Instead, what damage GSP inflicted for the most part came on the feet. 

So doesn't this prove that near submissions are the only thing one should get advantages for? And by near, they should be very near. An advantage score is a non-score. It doesn't proceed your position in BJJ and it doesn't improve your ability to do damage in a fight. 

If the original intention of the scoring was to simulate combat and the sport still holds true to that creed, I say incentivize sub hunting in BJJ by sub attempt only advantages and double DQing guys who have no points or advantages at the end of regulation.

Not a new idea, but one Diaz/GSP really crystallized for me. 

So you are saying that with your rules implemented the ground grappling in the fight was a draw?

That's crazy. I don't recall a time in the fight where Diaz had any semblance of control on GSP from the bottom. I think advantages work fine. they are their because it's understood that when things are equal it's hard to get a dominant position on a skilled grappler. Phone Post
3/19/13 7:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ChipW
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/2/10
Posts: 1895
Veek - When one of the player is from guard and goes to turtle, it used to be counted as an advantage for the top guy. Nowadays, i believe it's counted as a pass.

So according to the fight, GSP was outscoring Diaz by quite alot because most of the damage came when diaz turtled.
Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that it was an advantage not a pass. Have the rules been changed? Phone Post
3/19/13 10:16 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BandakaKush
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/22/13
Posts: 25
The UFC rule system of awarding points for takedowns is not a very good indicator of who is truly winning the fight and the same goes for BJJ competition.
If I can hold you down in side-mount or within your guard, what does that prove? I am controlling the position yes, but what is control if you cannot seal the deal and submit/ko your opponent? In a MMA match, I cannot effectively hold someone down and strike them at the same time, had GSP tried to go for some more serious ground and pound it would have given Nick the distance to get to his feet easier.
Modern sport BJJ competition rewards players for achieving the dominant position, the problem with that is you get people who will just try and pin you down and stall out in side mount to win the match on points, same thing happens now in the UFC where you have fighters trying to lay and pray to get the decision. Not saying GSP is guilty of that, he is just playing the rules to his benefit and he is a great competitor no doubt.
Nick Diaz could not afford to be patient as use more full-guard techniques because he was worried about losing the fight on points, so Diaz kept rolling and giving up his back which ended up costing him most of the rounds.
I prefer submission only matches (from a fan perspective) I thought Metamoris proved that position means nothing if you cannot submit from there
3/19/13 8:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mighty Cthulhu
10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/23/07
Posts: 829
FILA needs to fix the debacle that is international wrestling before trying to work on cornering submission grappling.

Points for escapes suck, just like points for gripping penalties in judo sucks. Matches should not be won by escape points or gripping penalties. It ruins the sport even more than the curse of advantages.

Advantages are to BJJ scoring as stripes are to BJJ belts ... annoying and unnecessary.
3/19/13 10:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Veek
10 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/17/10
Posts: 245
ChipW - 
Veek - When one of the player is from guard and goes to turtle, it used to be counted as an advantage for the top guy. Nowadays, i believe it's counted as a pass.

So according to the fight, GSP was outscoring Diaz by quite alot because most of the damage came when diaz turtled.
Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that it was an advantage not a pass. Have the rules been changed? Phone Post

My bad. I got confused. Its still an advantage from guard pass.
Points if you establish a back clinch from a takedown or a sweep.
3/19/13 11:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Brrr
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/12
Posts: 12
I much prefer FILA's ruleset to IBJJFs. They make more sense overall.
3/20/13 12:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 401
BandakaKush - The UFC rule system of awarding points for takedowns is not a very good indicator of who is truly winning the fight and the same goes for BJJ competition.
If I can hold you down in side-mount or within your guard, what does that prove? I am controlling the position yes, but what is control if you cannot seal the deal and submit/ko your opponent? In a MMA match, I cannot effectively hold someone down and strike them at the same time, had GSP tried to go for some more serious ground and pound it would have given Nick the distance to get to his feet easier.
Modern sport BJJ competition rewards players for achieving the dominant position, the problem with that is you get people who will just try and pin you down and stall out in side mount to win the match on points, same thing happens now in the UFC where you have fighters trying to lay and pray to get the decision. Not saying GSP is guilty of that, he is just playing the rules to his benefit and he is a great competitor no doubt.
Nick Diaz could not afford to be patient as use more full-guard techniques because he was worried about losing the fight on points, so Diaz kept rolling and giving up his back which ended up costing him most of the rounds.
I prefer submission only matches (from a fan perspective) I thought Metamoris proved that position means nothing if you cannot submit from there

Regards the last sentence: I think the GSP Vs Diaz fight disproved what you say Metamoris proved, because Diaz got battered - and GSP didn't even have a dominant position like side control, mount, or the back.

Moral of the story: position means a lot - hell: how many wrestlers in the UFC just stay in top half-guard and GnP the guy...?
You can 'keep it playful' when you're mounted in sport BJJ - but in MMA, when there are fists coming at your face, you'll want to escape immediately.
3/20/13 12:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
green_machine
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/8/08
Posts: 1211
I kept waiting for GSP to unload knees to Diaz' body like he did to Serra in their 2nd fight. I think if GSP had been blasting Nick's ribs with knees from the turtle, this conversation in this thread would be way different. Phone Post
3/20/13 1:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 403
I think if he'd tried to do that, Diaz would have rolled, and recovered guard - and is probably why he just kept his leg stapled, and beat him up from there: it gave him control; stopped Diaz from rolling away; and stopped him going for the kneebar.
3/20/13 4:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Brian McLaughlin
47 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3398
I swear gsp got the back with 2 hooks for a bit at one point, definitely enough for four points in BJJ Phone Post
3/21/13 9:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
152 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34707
GrahamJ - I think if he'd tried to do that, Diaz would have rolled, and recovered guard - and is probably why he just kept his leg stapled, and beat him up from there: it gave him control; stopped Diaz from rolling away; and stopped him going for the kneebar.
GSP did knee to the ribs on 2 occasions but Nick quickly adjusted position. Phone Post
3/21/13 5:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 396
Kneeblock - 

 

The argument for the modern point scoring system in BJJ is that it mimics the dominant positions one will need in a fight and rewards a competitor for achieving positions that would allow you to achieve the maximal amount of damage.

The advantage system is a tributary flowing off from that stream, rewarding competitors for almost getting to a position of control because theoretically, they'd be able to deliver slightly damage from those almosts. They can also be given for near subs.

Other than takedowns, GSP didn't score a single point on Diaz by IBJJF rules. He barely scored any advantages, but the few that he did were not for attempting submissions. Instead, he got to a lot of almost positions and he was completely unable to inflict any substantive damage with Nick playing about 90% sport BJJ. Instead, what damage GSP inflicted for the most part came on the feet. 

So doesn't this prove that near submissions are the only thing one should get advantages for? And by near, they should be very near. An advantage score is a non-score. It doesn't proceed your position in BJJ and it doesn't improve your ability to do damage in a fight. 

If the original intention of the scoring was to simulate combat and the sport still holds true to that creed, I say incentivize sub hunting in BJJ by sub attempt only advantages and double DQing guys who have no points or advantages at the end of regulation.

Not a new idea, but one Diaz/GSP really crystallized for me. 


GSP got multiple adantages form an ibjjf perspective, him passing to half guard, him causing nick to turtle to prevent guard passing all gives you advantages. insignificant damange? Look at it this way "what damage was nick able to enflict significant or insignificant to gsp while hiding in turtle"?
3/21/13 10:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
152 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34709
blanko - 
Kneeblock - 

 

The argument for the modern point scoring system in BJJ is that it mimics the dominant positions one will need in a fight and rewards a competitor for achieving positions that would allow you to achieve the maximal amount of damage.

The advantage system is a tributary flowing off from that stream, rewarding competitors for almost getting to a position of control because theoretically, they'd be able to deliver slightly damage from those almosts. They can also be given for near subs.

Other than takedowns, GSP didn't score a single point on Diaz by IBJJF rules. He barely scored any advantages, but the few that he did were not for attempting submissions. Instead, he got to a lot of almost positions and he was completely unable to inflict any substantive damage with Nick playing about 90% sport BJJ. Instead, what damage GSP inflicted for the most part came on the feet. 

So doesn't this prove that near submissions are the only thing one should get advantages for? And by near, they should be very near. An advantage score is a non-score. It doesn't proceed your position in BJJ and it doesn't improve your ability to do damage in a fight. 

If the original intention of the scoring was to simulate combat and the sport still holds true to that creed, I say incentivize sub hunting in BJJ by sub attempt only advantages and double DQing guys who have no points or advantages at the end of regulation.

Not a new idea, but one Diaz/GSP really crystallized for me. 


GSP got multiple adantages form an ibjjf perspective, him passing to half guard, him causing nick to turtle to prevent guard passing all gives you advantages. insignificant damange? Look at it this way "what damage was nick able to enflict significant or insignificant to gsp while hiding in turtle"?

No advantage for half guard or turtling. 

And just because no one did damage doesn't mean one guy should get rewarded for almost but not doing something.

3/22/13 8:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ChipW
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/2/10
Posts: 1917
Mighty Cthulhu - FILA needs to fix the debacle that is international wrestling before trying to work on cornering submission grappling.

Points for escapes suck, just like points for gripping penalties in judo sucks. Matches should not be won by escape points or gripping penalties. It ruins the sport even more than the curse of advantages.

Advantages are to BJJ scoring as stripes are to BJJ belts ... annoying and unnecessary.

I dont know man, i kind of like points for escaping.  Currently, under IBJJF rules, your in bottom side, you roll the guy and get to the top but he manages to get some type of guard in the process, you get no points even though you have improved your position.  Its the same for reclaiming guard from bottom side.  Guard reclaims are one of the main concepts of Jiu-jitsu yet under IBJJF rules you get no points for it.  Under the Fila rules you get an escape point.   


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.