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UnderGround Forums >> Askren: I'm 100% sure I could beat GSP


3/19/13 7:50 PM
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Zaph
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Look Rory, Condit and Diaz are obviously the three Askren has the best chance to use his one dimension enough to win a decision, yes I can more than see that.

 

But 9/10 Hendricks beats Askren, they both have had ample time to improve wrestling equally since Hendricks beat him in NCAA in 2002. Even if Askren is slightly better it's not enough to decide a fight with Hendrick power and accuracy at this point and Askren's head is a big target.

GSP is declining since the Knee injury so his fight with Hendricks will tell me everything I need to know in how far and fast he's falling. If he loses badly to Hendricks, Askren has a good shot to beat GSP, if GSP shuts out Hendricks grappling, Askren loses to GSP over and over.

Rory? I think he'd beat him up pretty badly on the feet. Phone Post
3/19/13 7:52 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Look Rory, Condit and Diaz are obviously the three Askren has the best chance to use his one dimension enough to win a decision, yes I can more than see that.

 

But 9/10 Hendricks beats Askren, they both have had ample time to improve wrestling equally since Hendricks beat him in NCAA in 2002. Even if Askren is slightly better it's not enough to decide a fight with Hendrick power and accuracy at this point and Askren's head is a big target.

GSP is declining since the Knee injury so his fight with Hendricks will tell me everything I need to know in how far and fast he's falling. If he loses badly to Hendricks, Askren has a good shot to beat GSP, if GSP shuts out Hendricks grappling, Askren loses to GSP over and over.

Rory? I think he'd beat him up pretty badly on the feet. Phone Post

I've been saying that all a long, I've been getting people laughing and pushing Askren's grappling as better than anything Rory can bring in each dissenting response.. I'm just trying to temper my belief that I see Rory as a favourite in that fight but blankets do happen even to the high level guys just not nearly as often

3/19/13 8:01 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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didn't RICK STORY outgrapple Hendricks?

 

 


So did Kosheck on some people's cards, everyone has either off nights or a style that can get the better of them, but at this point Hendricks is well rounded enough to avenge that loss and beat anyone they put in front of him.

at the time Rick was on a roll too and Johnny in the last two years has improved probably faster than anyone in the sport

3/19/13 8:07 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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He's two inches shorter and less reach than Askren, I'm not sure that's enough at this level to guarantee Askren is the winner. He may get some Takedowns but Johnny is so accurate at this point it's up to Askren's chin and gastank, which one hasn't been tested enough and the other is less than impressive after the 3rd round

3/19/13 8:09 PM
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I am 100% sure Askren vs GSP would be one of the most boring fights anyone could watch. A battle of who lays on who for the duration of the fight. Though I think GSP may try and keep it standing and use the fact he has superior striking than Askren to win the fight.
3/19/13 8:11 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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didn't RICK STORY outgrapple Hendricks?

 

 


So did Kosheck on some people's cards, everyone has either off nights or a style that can get the better of them, but at this point Hendricks is well rounded enough to avenge that loss and beat anyone they put in front of him.

at the time Rick was on a roll too and Johnny in the last two years has improved probably faster than anyone in the sport


 

I'm just thinking Hendrick's MMA grappling doesn't translate as well as Askren.  His top game is definitely not as good.  T-rex arms with short body doesn't get any leverage on top.  and all his weight is in his legs so he can't hold people down as well as Askren.

 

 

Same way Lombard's olympic level judo got tossed around like ragdoll by local dojo level judoka Okami.  Hendricks is too short.  In pure wrestling where you start off locking horns, it works... but in MMA length matters a lot.

 

ALso Judo has never been much of a Martial art to count on in mens MMA. Ronda has no one particularly well rounded to solve her totally yet and even Liz came very close. Akiyama has failed to impress with it, Karo was hit or miss, Lombard hasn't landed anything with it.

 

3/19/13 8:15 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I'm just thinking Hendrick's MMA grappling doesn't translate as well as Askren.  His top game is definitely not as good.  T-rex arms with short body doesn't get any leverage on top.  and all his weight is in his legs so he can't hold people down as well as Askren.

 

 

Same way Lombard's olympic level judo got tossed around like ragdoll by local dojo level judoka Okami.  Hendricks is too short.  In pure wrestling where you start off locking horns, it works... but in MMA length matters a lot.


He's two inches shorter and less reach than Askren, I'm not sure that's enough at this level to guarantee Askren is the winner. He may get some Takedowns but Johnny is so accurate at this point it's up to Askren's chin and gastank, which one hasn't been tested enough and the other is less than impressive after the 3rd round

 

i'm just saying Rick Story beat him all 3 rounds by outgrappling him.

 

This isn't off chance where he took 1 take-down and won 1 round.   Rick Story is taller and you can clearly see the length dynamic playing factor into their grappling.

Either Hendrick's wrestling has devolved or he just isn't the MMA wrestler everyone want to believe he is.  His top game has been lacklustre and threw abysmal # of strikes while on top of condit. 

 

Askren could very well outwrestle him in MMA.


Yeah I don't see it deciding the whole fight, you're right he could but he made his way into the top 5 being well rounded enough to take a win from a guy GSP couldn't get down so it's good enough and he'll get his chances to strike. If he was one dimensional still I would agree and be confused as to how he's in the top 5 or even beat Condit.

3/19/13 8:18 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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didn't RICK STORY outgrapple Hendricks?

 

 


So did Kosheck on some people's cards, everyone has either off nights or a style that can get the better of them, but at this point Hendricks is well rounded enough to avenge that loss and beat anyone they put in front of him.

at the time Rick was on a roll too and Johnny in the last two years has improved probably faster than anyone in the sport


 

I'm just thinking Hendrick's MMA grappling doesn't translate as well as Askren.  His top game is definitely not as good.  T-rex arms with short body doesn't get any leverage on top.  and all his weight is in his legs so he can't hold people down as well as Askren.

 

 

Same way Lombard's olympic level judo got tossed around like ragdoll by local dojo level judoka Okami.  Hendricks is too short.  In pure wrestling where you start off locking horns, it works... but in MMA length matters a lot.

 

ALso Judo has never been much of a Martial art to count on in mens MMA. Ronda has no one particularly well rounded to solve her totally yet and even Liz came very close. Akiyama has failed to impress with it, Karo was hit or miss, Lombard hasn't landed anything with it.

 

 

what about the greatest of all time.  Fedor.  How about Machida? judo/sumo)

 

Akiyama took Belcher down with ease whenever he wanted and stuffed every single one of his take-downs.  Belcher trains with Askren.  Akiyama also dominated Leben with throws.  Actually Akiyama's grappling has been excellent.  No UFC fighter has taken him down I beleive.

 

It hasn't gotten Akiyama any real impressive wins though the Belcher rfight is arguably Belcher's, your argument is that Askren would outwrestle Hendricks, that's fine, but I'm arguing he still loses the fight.

 

 

Judo hasn't caught on as the better base iw aht I mean, Fedor was more than special and a modified version of Japanese Judo is Sambo and proved It can be used. Akiyama has landed takedowns it still hasn't given him the ability to turn it into a winning streak.

3/19/13 8:20 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I'm arguing how much the wrestling matters when the GNP won't matter and guys at this level will likely get up. I will never bet on ASkren keeping any of these killers down long enough.

3/19/13 8:22 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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didn't RICK STORY outgrapple Hendricks?

 

 


So did Kosheck on some people's cards, everyone has either off nights or a style that can get the better of them, but at this point Hendricks is well rounded enough to avenge that loss and beat anyone they put in front of him.

at the time Rick was on a roll too and Johnny in the last two years has improved probably faster than anyone in the sport


 

I'm just thinking Hendrick's MMA grappling doesn't translate as well as Askren.  His top game is definitely not as good.  T-rex arms with short body doesn't get any leverage on top.  and all his weight is in his legs so he can't hold people down as well as Askren.

 

 

Same way Lombard's olympic level judo got tossed around like ragdoll by local dojo level judoka Okami.  Hendricks is too short.  In pure wrestling where you start off locking horns, it works... but in MMA length matters a lot.

 

ALso Judo has never been much of a Martial art to count on in mens MMA. Ronda has no one particularly well rounded to solve her totally yet and even Liz came very close. Akiyama has failed to impress with it, Karo was hit or miss, Lombard hasn't landed anything with it.

 

 

what about the greatest of all time.  Fedor.  How about Machida? judo/sumo)

 

Akiyama took Belcher down with ease whenever he wanted and stuffed every single one of his take-downs.  Belcher trains with Askren.  Akiyama also dominated Leben with throws.  Actually Akiyama's grappling has been excellent.  No UFC fighter has taken him down I beleive.

 

It hasn't gotten Akiyama any real impressive wins though the Belcher rfight is arguably Belcher's, your argument is that Askren would outwrestle Hendricks, that's fine, but I'm arguing he still loses the fight.

 

 

Judo hasn't caught on as the better base iw aht I mean, Fedor was more than special and a modified version of Japanese Judo is Sambo and proved It can be used. Akiyama has landed takedowns it still hasn't given him the ability to turn it into a winning streak.


despite being a stand and wanger, Akiyama beat Belcher mostly by grappling. the takedowns won him the fight.

Akiyama beat Leben by grappling then the crazy triangle he didn't prepare for.  Askren has shown better sub defense.

Akiyama got KOed by Vitor within minutes. 

 

Askren is not a stand and wanger.  he knows his bread and butter..... he'll clinch and just take down.  ugly as hell but he knows what's paying the bills.


and it hasn't been tested against anyone more than one dimensional farm teamers with bottom games and bad wrestling.

He's jusit not known enough, let him fight a koscheck type first. Hendricks passed that test, if Askren does better maybe you're right until then he's dominating poor wrestlers.

3/19/13 8:24 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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The fact remains no Judo man has reached the top since Fedor if you take sambo as a judo qualifier, that fact cannot be ignored and Lombard is falling out of that reach fast.

3/19/13 8:26 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I'm arguing how much the wrestling matters when the GNP won't matter and guys at this level will likely get up. I will never bet on ASkren keeping any of these killers down long enough.

 

Rory hasn't shown me ANYTHING that demonstrates he would beat Askren.

 

KO power on the feet? nope.  He usually takes people down with raw power and dominates them.  Had trouble taking down retirement mode pudgy 155er BJ Penn.

Askren would absolutely beat this kid.  How's Rory's bottom game?  damaged badly by Condit within 30 seconds, is all I remember when he was on his back.

 

Fitch would just get Fitched.  Better wrestler.  Better athlete and Fitch doesn't have the best TDD. they are different level of wrestlers. 

 

Diaz?  LOL.  never beat a good wrestler.  But he'll beat the best wrestler in MMA with sub D.  OK!


I'm not arguing Diaz wins, Rory's improving week to week how hard he trains, it is backfiring with injuries but he will reach a point where he can get up from even the best wrestlers. The top 5 is where if a guy can get up you gas yourself having to try and keep him down over and over and over. ALl it takes it getting up with time to land combos. I think Rory pulls out a decision getting up enough.

3/19/13 8:27 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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And Fitch is not well rounded enough to beat Askren that you are right about.

3/19/13 8:29 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Condit and Rory I give shots to get up and connect enough combos to win IN A 5 ROUNDER against Askren. Beyond that Johnny and GSP are my only other choices to beat him beside 50/50 on Koscheck

Until Askren shows me some striking or sub offense I can't qualify him in the top 5, the top 5 is for well rounded only and even Diaz was shown by GSP as not Striking and BJJ well rounded enough

3/19/13 8:32 PM
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The fact remains no Judo man has reached the top since Fedor if you take sambo as a judo qualifier, that fact cannot be ignored and Lombard is falling out of that reach fast.


what does that have to do with Askren?

I'm just talking grappling.  The lombard and okami fight was just a comparison of grappling dynamic in MMA.

if you just want to shit on Judo then, Jesse Taylor and Trevor Prangly are all American wrestlers, they couldn't take Lombard down.  

 

I'm responding to your points on Askren and Judo individually. Taylor and PRangley are not even top 20, and why are you equating tdd defense to Judo skills, TDD is consitent across MMA, t's up to Judo to prove it can get people down and keep them down and be used to get into the top 5 not stay standing, everyone sprawls on a doubleleg falling forward.

 

3/19/13 8:35 PM
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Condit and Rory I give shots to get up and connect enough combos to win IN A 5 ROUNDER against Askren. Beyond that Johnny and GSP are my only other choices to beat him beside 50/50 on Koscheck

Until Askren shows me some striking or sub offense I can't qualify him in the top 5, the top 5 is for well rounded only and even Diaz was shown by GSP as not Striking and BJJ well rounded enough

 

LMAO Rory has no chance.  There's some horrible hype.  

Kos at least has the wrestling credentials and the 1 punch KO power(altho haven't seen it as of late).

Ben would take the kid down wheenver he wanted.  pudgy BJ Penn took him down in the 1st with the ugliest single.  Then stuffed Rory's take-down.  Of course BJ gassed. as usual.

 

Askren beats Rory for sure.   Condit's take-down defense isn't good.  He got dominated by a green Rory for 2.5 rounds. as well as GSP and Hendricks.   Askren is 10X the wrestler Rory is and he's not gassing like young Rory did.  He's older and more composed,  He'd be the favorite against Condit.


Dude if you need to laugh and act like a child when more than half this board was sure Diaz would destroy GSP, I'm not gonna continue to argue with you, I have my view you have yours, the only decider is if they fight. 

I'll take my risks with Rory and Condit, you don't have to agree.

3/19/13 8:39 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I don't ridicule your speculation, I respect your points and give my opinion on them.

3/19/13 8:43 PM
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that's cool bro. respeck.

 

It's entirely possible Askren is the bes thing to hit WW since GSP, but he's gotta have more tests than Bellator's wading pool to make these claims.

 

 

He hasn't tried a single sub he's gotta show he's improving, that's all I really mean and his 5 round gastank with the little high energy moves he pulls except control is troubling.

3/19/13 8:49 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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It's like King Mo, does his Loss to Newton tell us he's not as good as he thought he was? No not really, but it at least tell us that he would have probably treated fighting Kyle Kingsbury or Maldonado in the UFC the same way and would have been 0-1 in the UFC and need a win to stay which iw worse for his career than losing in Bellator because at least he's not going to bo any lower. 

 

And with Askren the Gas tank problems and unwillingness to go for many risks with one dimension is not a good indicator he doesn't hit brick wall, in maybe even a new name we haven't seen yet by the time he makes it into the UFC

3/19/13 8:54 PM
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he's boring for sure.

 

I'm the one that posted the sleeping pics.  However, I don't think just because some guys are in the UFC they are better.  There are guys here who think Nick Diaz would beat him.  LOL that's just funny.  Oh Shields beat Condit too...... Condit gets smothered quite a lot.

 

No it's true but all you can only really go by is the relative competition he's faced, and the guys he's beat beat have not beat big names with what Ben beat them either I can only evaluate how what Ben exposed serves them in other fights. 

 

 

Lima is a decent test I will say that but moreso in defensive BJJ than anything else because Lima didn't even try to sweep once. Lima has gone on to beat a few guys all with strikes and none ASkren's level and one on a losing streak in Baker

3/19/13 8:57 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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It's like King Mo, does his Loss to Newton tell us he's not as good as he thought he was? No not really, but it at least tell us that he would have probably treated fighting Kyle Kingsbury or Maldonado in the UFC the same way and would have been 0-1 in the UFC and need a win to stay which iw worse for his career than losing in Bellator because at least he's not going to bo any lower. 

 

And with Askren the Gas tank problems and unwillingness to go for many risks with one dimension is not a good indicator he doesn't hit brick wall, in maybe even a new name we haven't seen yet by the time he makes it into the UFC


King Mo is an exceptional case.  he's an explosive athlete that got deluded by Jeff Mayweather into thinking striking is only boxing.  Not only that, he also got deluded into thinknig he's actually mayweather by dropping his hands.

Ben Askren is not that personality profile is he? 

If King Mo did what he did to Mousaci. he would've beat newton.


Yeah and I don't mean to say Askren will take someone lightly in his first UFC fight necessarily but may gas against a cardio maniac on the way up and just get caught

3/19/13 8:59 PM
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he's boring for sure.

 

I'm the one that posted the sleeping pics.  However, I don't think just because some guys are in the UFC they are better.  There are guys here who think Nick Diaz would beat him.  LOL that's just funny.  Oh Shields beat Condit too...... Condit gets smothered quite a lot.

 

No it's true but all you can only really go by is the relative competition he's faced, and the guys he's beat beat have not beat big names with what Ben beat them either I can only evaluate how what Ben exposed serves them in other fights. 

 

 

Lima is a decent test I will say that but moreso in defensive BJJ than anything else because Lima didn't even try to sweep once. Lima has gone on to beat a few guys all with strikes and none ASkren's level and one on a losing streak in Baker

 

Lima would beat BJ Penn.

 

 

BJ Penn is 2-5-1 at welter and he's about 3-4 years out of his prime.  that's Rory's best win.  Rory shouldn't be mentioned on the list of people who can beat Askren.

 

Penn is a very small WW, I think more than Lima outside the UFC could beat him wtih size on him a lot like Nate Diaz at WW

 

 

I'm a Rory fan he's the only guy I go beyond logic with, so I should say I hope Rory is improving enough to be able to beat Ben Askren or you are right the hype is unwarranted.

3/19/13 9:00 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I would like him, as a Canadian, to take the WW belt and keep it when GSP retires, that's where my fandom subjectivity ends and it starts with beating Condit or all my faith falls apart

3/19/13 9:05 PM
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It's a lot like the Mark Hunt faith people have he can beat JDS. No Rory doesn't have the KO power that Hunt has but he has a better gastank and better grappling. Hunt against JDS or Cain has a very narrow window to win because they are not going to stand in front of him like Struve did, they will put him on his back and it takes faith in Hunt to think he gets back up.

3/19/13 9:10 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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understandable.

 

btw I heard from a gang leader that Rory used to be an enforcer.  He used to pull people out of their houses and cave their heads in to collect debts etc.  


lol with his mentality like he's seen a lot more horror than he's letting on, that wouldn't shock me


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