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UnderGround Forums >> Askren: I'm 100% sure I could beat GSP


3/19/13 11:05 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/19/13 11:07 PM
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OK I went back and watched Hieron vs Askren to see how and where ASkren dominated and if Hieron had no chance to implement his game and whether a similar fighter could like Rory or Condit.

 

This is not about who I think won the fight this is what happened in each round:

 

 

1 st Hieron uppercut dropped Askren in the 1st and had side control Ben gets up later shoots and Hieron block takedown. All Hieron
 
2nd Takedown ASkren GNP Rides out round with punches in bunches All Askren 
 
3rd Ben gets takedown for a couple of mins, Jay Hieron Sweeps and reverses and gets up, Hieron hits harder more effectively the rest of the round. Toss up
 
4th Ben Gets Back control lands knees to the body
1:40 left Hieron rolls and reverses gets up, round ends standing All Askren
 
5th Hieron tags him repeatdly, Stuffs Takedown
Hieron Kicks and knocks Askren No takedowns in the rest of the round Jay continues to land on him, All Hieron
 
Aksren angry at his performance after the fight

 

Hieron had ample time to do massive damage to Askren, the fact he didn't speaks to his tentativeness early but two round he stuff the only takedowns, and all of the other's he got back up, also dropped Askren twice.

Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP.

Don't believe the recap? Go see for yourself. ASkren's strikes were laughable as well. Sorry Ben you're talking shit.

3/20/13 12:23 PM
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bjjdna
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ChaosOverkill - 

OK I went back and watched Hieron vs Askren to see how and where ASkren dominated and if Hieron had no chance to implement his game and whether a similar fighter could like Rory or Condit.

 

This is not about who I think won the fight this is what happened in each round:

 

 

1 st Hieron uppercut dropped Askren in the 1st and had side control Ben gets up later shoots and Hieron block takedown. All Hieron
 
2nd Takedown ASkren GNP Rides out round with punches in bunches All Askren 
 
3rd Ben gets takedown for a couple of mins, Jay Hieron Sweeps and reverses and gets up, Hieron hits harder more effectively the rest of the round. Toss up
 
4th Ben Gets Back control lands knees to the body
1:40 left Hieron rolls and reverses gets up, round ends standing All Askren
 
5th Hieron tags him repeatdly, Stuffs Takedown
Hieron Kicks and knocks Askren No takedowns in the rest of the round Jay continues to land on him, All Hieron
 
Aksren angry at his performance after the fight

 

Hieron had ample time to do massive damage to Askren, the fact he didn't speaks to his tentativeness early but two round he stuff the only takedowns, and all of the other's he got back up, also dropped Askren twice.

Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP.

Don't believe the recap? Go see for yourself. ASkren's strikes were laughable as well. Sorry Ben you're talking shit.


You can spin it anyway you want. Ben won the Hieron fight, despite his sucky striking and not putting on his best performance. And as I"ve already mentioned, Hieron is a very skilled fighter with solid state champ level wrestling.

Although Ben's striking is not good, he's training with the best, and he has room for exponential improvement. Besides, his striking from the feet only needs to be good enough to close the distance for the clinch.

Ben has a wrestlers work ethic, he's tough as nails, and refuses to quit. All that along with the the best tds, scrambles, and ground control game in the ww div means GSP is going to suffer a beatdown if they ever fight.
3/20/13 12:32 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/20/13 12:32 PM
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 

OK I went back and watched Hieron vs Askren to see how and where ASkren dominated and if Hieron had no chance to implement his game and whether a similar fighter could like Rory or Condit.

 

This is not about who I think won the fight this is what happened in each round:

 

 

1 st Hieron uppercut dropped Askren in the 1st and had side control Ben gets up later shoots and Hieron block takedown. All Hieron
 
2nd Takedown ASkren GNP Rides out round with punches in bunches All Askren 
 
3rd Ben gets takedown for a couple of mins, Jay Hieron Sweeps and reverses and gets up, Hieron hits harder more effectively the rest of the round. Toss up
 
4th Ben Gets Back control lands knees to the body
1:40 left Hieron rolls and reverses gets up, round ends standing All Askren
 
5th Hieron tags him repeatdly, Stuffs Takedown
Hieron Kicks and knocks Askren No takedowns in the rest of the round Jay continues to land on him, All Hieron
 
Aksren angry at his performance after the fight

 

Hieron had ample time to do massive damage to Askren, the fact he didn't speaks to his tentativeness early but two round he stuff the only takedowns, and all of the other's he got back up, also dropped Askren twice.

Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP.

Don't believe the recap? Go see for yourself. ASkren's strikes were laughable as well. Sorry Ben you're talking shit.


You can spin it anyway you want. Ben won the Hieron fight, despite his sucky striking and not putting on his best performance. And as I"ve already mentioned, Hieron is a very skilled fighter with solid state champ level wrestling.

Although Ben's striking is not good, he's training with the best, and he has room for exponential improvement. Besides, his striking from the feet only needs to be good enough to close the distance for the clinch.

Ben has a wrestlers work ethic, he's tough as nails, and refuses to quit. All that along with the the best tds, scrambles, and ground control game in the ww div means GSP is going to suffer a beatdown if they ever fight.

 

And you can also spin it as an Askren fan. Hieron stuffed his takedowns in two rounds and dropped him twice if you deny these facts you're not arguing you're selling. If Hieron can stuff his TD's GSP isn't going down twist that like you want, I'm done arguing with an Askren nuthugger. His Amoussou win was great apart from that his test in Hieron was not dominant sorry.

 

3/20/13 12:33 PM
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orcus
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"Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP."

No one said he's unbeatable. But what does Condit do to beat Askren that he was unable to do to Hendricks? 

3/20/13 12:34 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/20/13 12:34 PM
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orcus - 

"Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP."

No one said he's unbeatable. But what does Condit do to beat Askren that he was unable to do to Hendricks? 

 

Hendricks used his striking to attack Condit when they weren't on the ground, what is Askren going to do when they aren't on the ground and can't land all of his takedowns (Hieron)?

 

3/20/13 12:35 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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And bjjdna by arguing he beats GSP is arguing he is unbeatable yes

 

"GSP Is going to suffer a beatdown if they fight" he's the champ that's tantamount to Askren is unbreatable even though Jay arguably did depending on who you ask

3/20/13 12:41 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I'm not inventing what Askren did in the Jay fight, he tried his usual gameplan and Jay stuffed it enough to give anyone like him a chance to win that fight, to deny it and twist with performance issues and "He still won" is nuthuggery at it's worst, that's like DIaz people saying Santos is a top 10 win because he beat Zaromskis when he was overated by the entire sport.

 

Askren is fighting the farm team, and when he faced a fringe UFC'er he almost lost FACT

3/20/13 12:43 PM
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bjjdna
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It's like King Mo, does his Loss to Newton tell us he's not as good as he thought he was? No not really, but it at least tell us that he would have probably treated fighting Kyle Kingsbury or Maldonado in the UFC the same way and would have been 0-1 in the UFC and need a win to stay which iw worse for his career than losing in Bellator because at least he's not going to bo any lower. 

 

And with Askren the Gas tank problems and unwillingness to go for many risks with one dimension is not a good indicator he doesn't hit brick wall, in maybe even a new name we haven't seen yet by the time he makes it into the UFC


Do you have any idea of the skill set required to do what ben does for 5 rounds - consistently - against highly skilled opponents?

Ben is NOT a one dimensional fighter. You can't achieve success in mma these days with only one dimension. Ben's bjj is solid and combined with elite wreslting - it's a hard combo to beat.

BJJ is much more than just subs - controlling, maintaining, gaining, and improving your position...passing and defending subs, etc etc

As he improves, Ben will start hitting more offensive subs; it's just a matter of time. That said Ben is doing what you're supposed to do. Position before submission and only go for the sub if it's there; don't force it or you risk losing position.

And I'm not sure why you think Ben has a problem with his gas tank. Ben's wrestling mentality and work ethic means he will be prepared and in shape for every fight.

And it drives me crazy when people play the..."Bellator fighters suck because they're not in the UFC."

It's really disrespectful to he highly skilled fighters that fight in Bellator to say shit like that.

According to many UGers, if you're not a UFC poster boy, you're a nobody and suck at fighting. That's just retarded.
3/20/13 12:43 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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If Jay's experience and reputation caused him to "Perform badly" then I got news for you he will "perform badly" again with his next fringe UFC'er.

3/20/13 12:45 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 

It's like King Mo, does his Loss to Newton tell us he's not as good as he thought he was? No not really, but it at least tell us that he would have probably treated fighting Kyle Kingsbury or Maldonado in the UFC the same way and would have been 0-1 in the UFC and need a win to stay which iw worse for his career than losing in Bellator because at least he's not going to bo any lower. 

 

And with Askren the Gas tank problems and unwillingness to go for many risks with one dimension is not a good indicator he doesn't hit brick wall, in maybe even a new name we haven't seen yet by the time he makes it into the UFC


Do you have any idea of the skill set required to do what ben does for 5 rounds - consistently - against highly skilled opponents?

Ben is NOT a one dimensional fighter. You can't achieve success in mma these days with only one dimension. Ben's bjj is solid and combined with elite wreslting - it's a hard combo to beat.

BJJ is much more than just subs - controlling, maintaining, gaining, and improving your position...passing and defending subs, etc etc

As he improves, Ben will start hitting more offensive subs; it's just a matter of time. That said Ben is doing what you're supposed to do. Position before submission and only go for the sub if it's there; don't force it or you risk losing position.

And I'm not sure why you think Ben has a problem with his gas tank. Ben's wrestling mentality and work ethic means he will be prepared and in shape for every fight.

And it drives me crazy when people play the..."Bellator fighters suck because they're not in the UFC."

It's really disrespectful to he highly skilled fighters that fight in Bellator to say shit like that.

According to many UGers, if you're not a UFC poster boy, you're a nobody and suck at fighting. That's just retarded.

 

Jay Hieron was in Bellator and a good test, Ben has Wrestling and Defensive BJJ, THAT'S IT!

 

 

NAME THE CHAMPION IN THE UFC IN THE LAST 10 YEARS THAT LASTED WITH ONLY GRAPPLING OR ONLY STRIKING.

3/20/13 12:48 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/20/13 12:50 PM
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You also can't arbitrarily say that because they are in Bellator fighting for a belt THEY MUST BE TOP FIGHTERS!

 

That's pattently absurd and styles make fights, name the well rounded fighter who can get up that Ben has faced, NAME HIM! Oh wait yes, it's JAY HIERON.

 

If the Bellator fighters are good they need to have provable wins to say that, Lombard is being exposed. Eddie Alvarez? Great fighter but he beat Aoki are real test and lost to Michael Chandeler, Michael Chandler? Well rounded enough to put people out and is in their strongest division next to FW. Their HW division was disbanded, Their last LHW fight was nothing to strut over.

There are good fighters in there but they need real tests to certify it.

3/20/13 12:48 PM
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bjjdna
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 

OK I went back and watched Hieron vs Askren to see how and where ASkren dominated and if Hieron had no chance to implement his game and whether a similar fighter could like Rory or Condit.

 

This is not about who I think won the fight this is what happened in each round:

 

 

1 st Hieron uppercut dropped Askren in the 1st and had side control Ben gets up later shoots and Hieron block takedown. All Hieron
 
2nd Takedown ASkren GNP Rides out round with punches in bunches All Askren 
 
3rd Ben gets takedown for a couple of mins, Jay Hieron Sweeps and reverses and gets up, Hieron hits harder more effectively the rest of the round. Toss up
 
4th Ben Gets Back control lands knees to the body
1:40 left Hieron rolls and reverses gets up, round ends standing All Askren
 
5th Hieron tags him repeatdly, Stuffs Takedown
Hieron Kicks and knocks Askren No takedowns in the rest of the round Jay continues to land on him, All Hieron
 
Aksren angry at his performance after the fight

 

Hieron had ample time to do massive damage to Askren, the fact he didn't speaks to his tentativeness early but two round he stuff the only takedowns, and all of the other's he got back up, also dropped Askren twice.

Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP.

Don't believe the recap? Go see for yourself. ASkren's strikes were laughable as well. Sorry Ben you're talking shit.


You can spin it anyway you want. Ben won the Hieron fight, despite his sucky striking and not putting on his best performance. And as I"ve already mentioned, Hieron is a very skilled fighter with solid state champ level wrestling.

Although Ben's striking is not good, he's training with the best, and he has room for exponential improvement. Besides, his striking from the feet only needs to be good enough to close the distance for the clinch.

Ben has a wrestlers work ethic, he's tough as nails, and refuses to quit. All that along with the the best tds, scrambles, and ground control game in the ww div means GSP is going to suffer a beatdown if they ever fight.

 

And you can also spin it as an Askren fan. Hieron stuffed his takedowns in two rounds and dropped him twice if you deny these facts you're not arguing you're selling. If Hieron can stuff his TD's GSP isn't going down twist that like you want, I'm done arguing with an Askren nuthugger. His Amoussou win was great apart from that his test in Hieron was not dominant sorry.

 


I'm not selling anything. I just appreicate superior grappling technique and Ben's strategy and I want to see Ben fight GSP, Hendricks, etc...

fyi because of Ben's unique funky style, I called Ben out as a future mma/bjj/nogi champ back when Ben was still in college before Ben even decided to fight mma - not because I'm an Askren nuthugger, but because I wrestled and did bjj for a big chunk of my life and I saw the technique required to be future mma champ.
3/20/13 12:52 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 
bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 

OK I went back and watched Hieron vs Askren to see how and where ASkren dominated and if Hieron had no chance to implement his game and whether a similar fighter could like Rory or Condit.

 

This is not about who I think won the fight this is what happened in each round:

 

 

1 st Hieron uppercut dropped Askren in the 1st and had side control Ben gets up later shoots and Hieron block takedown. All Hieron
 
2nd Takedown ASkren GNP Rides out round with punches in bunches All Askren 
 
3rd Ben gets takedown for a couple of mins, Jay Hieron Sweeps and reverses and gets up, Hieron hits harder more effectively the rest of the round. Toss up
 
4th Ben Gets Back control lands knees to the body
1:40 left Hieron rolls and reverses gets up, round ends standing All Askren
 
5th Hieron tags him repeatdly, Stuffs Takedown
Hieron Kicks and knocks Askren No takedowns in the rest of the round Jay continues to land on him, All Hieron
 
Aksren angry at his performance after the fight

 

Hieron had ample time to do massive damage to Askren, the fact he didn't speaks to his tentativeness early but two round he stuff the only takedowns, and all of the other's he got back up, also dropped Askren twice.

Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP.

Don't believe the recap? Go see for yourself. ASkren's strikes were laughable as well. Sorry Ben you're talking shit.


You can spin it anyway you want. Ben won the Hieron fight, despite his sucky striking and not putting on his best performance. And as I"ve already mentioned, Hieron is a very skilled fighter with solid state champ level wrestling.

Although Ben's striking is not good, he's training with the best, and he has room for exponential improvement. Besides, his striking from the feet only needs to be good enough to close the distance for the clinch.

Ben has a wrestlers work ethic, he's tough as nails, and refuses to quit. All that along with the the best tds, scrambles, and ground control game in the ww div means GSP is going to suffer a beatdown if they ever fight.

 

And you can also spin it as an Askren fan. Hieron stuffed his takedowns in two rounds and dropped him twice if you deny these facts you're not arguing you're selling. If Hieron can stuff his TD's GSP isn't going down twist that like you want, I'm done arguing with an Askren nuthugger. His Amoussou win was great apart from that his test in Hieron was not dominant sorry.

 


I'm not selling anything. I just appreicate superior grappling technique and Ben's strategy and I want to see Ben fight GSP, Hendricks, etc...

fyi because of Ben's unique funky style, I called Ben out as a future mma/bjj/nogi champ back when Ben was still in college before Ben even decided to fight mma - not because I'm an Askren nuthugger, but because I wrestled and did bjj for a big chunk of my life and I saw the technique required to be future mma champ.

Fine until he can fill in the gaps when he's not on the ground he will fail to reach the top 5.

 

When he does have striking to compliment his extraordinary grappling HE WILL SUCCEED and I've been saying that all along.

Until then he is not complete enough.

3/20/13 12:55 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/20/13 12:57 PM
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Guys are training from thje start in MMA now to be well rounded from the start, they are better versions of Jay Hieron and in some cases MUCH better. When Ben can put some fear with combos or power they will lose to him because he can change levels properly because they will back up. Until then no one fears his striking and will walk him down and if you watch the Hieron fight again, that hurt Ben's grappling because he had no momentum moving forward his TD's moving backward aren't half as effective.

The people that let him walk them down due to fear of the takedown, have garbage TDD like Amoussou and Lima, they let him impose his momentum takedowns and throught their offensive BJJ would win, Ben proved his defensive grappling is top notch. A great step, next he needed to prove he could do the same to a guy who would not move backwards and he struggled to a razor thin win, proof he needs the striking to make the takedowns even more effective and back people down at the highest level.

3/20/13 12:59 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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I'm arguing that he is still too green despite being impressive, not that he sucks please understand the difference.

3/20/13 1:01 PM
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bjjdna
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bjjdna - you all underestimate grappling greatness of teh funk

So Ben does things No other man above him in MMA can deal with is what you're syaing they're all powerless at his new style and technique of grappling.

 

Bullshit


yea that's pretty much what I'm saying, and I've been saying it since before Ben decided to fight mma

Here's a thread i created from 2006 about Ben...

"I love watching this kid wrestle...he has olympic aspirations but his style is ideal for subfighting and mma...his ability to end up in control from the scramble is amazing"

I've been a fan of ben's funk style since the first time i saw him wrestle. The dude would pull off some crazy ass unorthodox shit in his wrestling matches.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/bjjdna/tehfunk.gif

Ben dominated wrestling without being the strongest, quickest, most athletic, etc. He dominated by outmanuevering his opponent - often from an inferior positions.

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about. When someone with the skillset of Jake shoots a deep TD like he did the first seconds of the match, 99% of the time even the best wrestlers in the world are going to lose that TD - not Ben.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXftsXHVy4k

Ben's style is ideal for mma/bjj/nogi because it does not matter if ben gives up position or loses a td now and then. Once on the ground, Ben is going to end up on top from any position, and he does not have to stand up, escape, and risk the ko to improve his position. Ben can reverse you and in up on top from any position once on the ground. He has the gift of scramble.
3/20/13 1:03 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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And I will name you the Champion that did it with one style, his name is Brock Lesnar, and what happened to him when he ran into guys his size who could strike and stuff his TD's early?

 

Carwin mounted and beat on him but gasses, Cain knocked the crap out of him and so did Overeem, Diverticulitis or not.

3/20/13 1:04 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 
bjjdna - you all underestimate grappling greatness of teh funk

So Ben does things No other man above him in MMA can deal with is what you're syaing they're all powerless at his new style and technique of grappling.

 

Bullshit


yea that's pretty much what I'm saying, and I've been saying it since before Ben decided to fight mma

Here's a thread i created from 2006 about Ben...

"I love watching this kid wrestle...he has olympic aspirations but his style is ideal for subfighting and mma...his ability to end up in control from the scramble is amazing"

I've been a fan of ben's funk style since the first time i saw him wrestle. The dude would pull off some crazy ass unorthodox shit in his wrestling matches.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/bjjdna/tehfunk.gif

Ben dominated wrestling without being the strongest, quickest, most athletic, etc. He dominated by outmanuevering his opponent - often from an inferior positions.

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about. When someone with the skillset of Jake shoots a deep TD like he did the first seconds of the match, 99% of the time even the best wrestlers in the world are going to lose that TD - not Ben.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXftsXHVy4k

Ben's style is ideal for mma/bjj/nogi because it does not matter if ben gives up position or loses a td now and then. Once on the ground, Ben is going to end up on top from any position, and he does not have to stand up, escape, and risk the ko to improve his position. Ben can reverse you and in up on top from any position once on the ground. He has the gift of scramble.

 

and I'm saying Jay Hieron is not a master of TDD and proved it's not unstoppable in two rounds one early one late, I can only go on the evidence from tests with experience.

 

People don't have to take him down to smash him on the feet, just stop a Takedown and make him fear their hands, he is not above that, no one is if he can't counter punch sorry.

 

Anyways I'm out for a while so I can't respond till later

peace

3/20/13 1:05 PM
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orcus
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orcus - 

"Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP."

No one said he's unbeatable. But what does Condit do to beat Askren that he was unable to do to Hendricks? 

 

Hendricks used his striking to attack Condit when they weren't on the ground, what is Askren going to do when they aren't on the ground and can't land all of his takedowns (Hieron)?

 


Why would they not be on the ground? Why would you compare Condit's wrestling to Hieron's?

3/20/13 1:06 PM
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orcus
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"And I will name you the Champion that did it with one style, his name is Brock Lesnar, and what happened to him when he ran into guys his size who could strike and stuff his TD's early?"

I guess the difference of opinion here is that you seem to think everyone, even Carlos Condit, would be able to stuff Askren's takedowns just because Jay Hieron did it a couple times. 

3/20/13 1:07 PM
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bjjdna
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I'm arguing that he is still too green despite being impressive, not that he sucks please understand the difference.


yea ben is still very green...which makes his achievements that much more impressive

Ben's with one of the best striking coaches in the world, and his chin is solid. Ben's mma game is going to improve exponentially within the next few years and nobody at ww will be able to stop him
3/20/13 1:07 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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ChaosOverkill - 
orcus - 

"Based on this I don't see an unbeatable Askren no way in hell sorry. He may still beat Rory but not Condit, not Hendricks and not GSP."

No one said he's unbeatable. But what does Condit do to beat Askren that he was unable to do to Hendricks? 

 

Hendricks used his striking to attack Condit when they weren't on the ground, what is Askren going to do when they aren't on the ground and can't land all of his takedowns (Hieron)?

 


Why would they not be on the ground? Why would you compare Condit's wrestling to Hieron's?

 

Condit can get up because Jay got up and stuffed takedowns that's all he needs to do. No one is going to wrestle offensively with ASkren but will strike with him when they are standing what stops COndit from doing with Hieron did but more effectively? Go watch the ASkren Hieron fight the evidence is right there.

 

3/20/13 1:09 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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bjjdna - 
ChaosOverkill - 

I'm arguing that he is still too green despite being impressive, not that he sucks please understand the difference.


yea ben is still very green...which makes his achievements that much more impressive

Ben's with one of the best striking coaches in the world, and his chin is solid. Ben's mma game is going to improve exponentially within the next few years and nobody at ww will be able to stop him

Entirely possible, currently he's still too green and making mistakes standing the killers of the division will take advantage of but in a couple of years yes he could have all the tools

3/20/13 1:12 PM
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ChaosOverkill
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Edited: 03/20/13 1:13 PM
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hendricks didn't allow COndit any time or space to be effective, if you back COndit down he is at a disadvantage and Hendricks could do that because of his striking AND grappling.

Askren can't do that yet.

 

Diaz lost backing Condit down because he refused to adapt and just talked shit and slapped him


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