UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> NSAC considering changes to TRT policy


3/21/13 4:13 PM
Ignore | Vote Down | Vote Up
Underground Blog
925 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/3/08
Posts: 11588
MixedMartialArts.com
 

21 March 2013 • The Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC) held a public meeting today under the direction of executive director is Keith Kizer, to discuss drug testing protocols, notably Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUE) for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

Damon Martin reports.

Current standards by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) allow for testosterone levels to reach a 4:1 ratio in testosterone to epitestosterone in a normal male athlete. The average for a normal functioning male is a 1:1 ratio. The NSAC allows up to a 6:1 ratio, but is considering the lower figure, as well as an additional, more expensive step, the carbon isotope test (CIR), that looks to see if the additional testosterone in the body is being produced naturally or by an outside product like synthetic testosterone or a performance enhancing drug.

There was a proposal to conduct a study of a wide range of fighters either past or going forward to determine what a "normal" level of testosterone ratio would be.

The commission plans to rerturn to the issue at their next meeting and have further discussions on the possibility of changing the legal ratios from 6:1 down to the WADA-recognized level of 4:1.

Read entire article...

PEDs were not the sole topic on the agenda.

Current UFC Vice President of Regulatory Affairs and former Executive Director of the NSAC Marc Ratner addressed the NSAC and asked for a reexamination of the rules on marijuana.

"Society is changing, it's a different world now than when I was on the commission," said Ratner.  "States are legalizing marijuana and it's becoming more and more of a problem with fighters testing positive and the metabolites."

"I think it's something that has to be discussed on a commission level now. Right now I just cannot believe that a performance enhancing drug and marijuana can be treated the same.  It just doesn't make sense to the world anymore and it's something that has to be brought up."

So what do you think UG? More rules for PEDs and less for pot? Legalize everything? Things are fine, no changes necessary?


3/21/13 4:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Condit's Face Broke My Hand
521 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/29/11
Posts: 13101
that would be great Phone Post
3/21/13 4:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DonFreedomFrye
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/23/12
Posts: 1150
Did they also change the meaning of TUE during this meeting?

"Temporary Use Exemptions"
3/21/13 4:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mihow
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/17/11
Posts: 14478
boooooooooooo
3/21/13 4:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Anderson's BBC in my Goku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/6/08
Posts: 23248
Wat does this have to do with trt Phone Post
3/21/13 5:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ViciousCesar
58 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/16/09
Posts: 1514
Happy to see that the medicinal marijuana issue will be addressed.
3/21/13 5:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ns_echoes
46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/20/08
Posts: 943
Anderson's BBC in my Goku -  Wat does this have to do with trt Phone Post

Lowering the allowed T/E ratio from 6:1 to 4:1 will ostensibly affect the dosages of those on TRT.

They've agreed to survey fighters licensed in the state to determine a proper average for testosterone levels. Before, you either get a pass or fail. If you were under 6:1, they didn't record the exact ratio. If you went above 6:1, they recorded it.

So going forward, they will record all ratios, pass or fail.

If the data supports lowering to 4:1, they will change the current policy.

But the NSAC doesn't appear to be eliminating TUEs or anything like that. Just trying to force fighters to come in at lower levels.

3/21/13 5:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sevr1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/2/13
Posts: 75
The real big news isn't the mj or trt, it's this line right here:

"There was a proposal to conduct a study of a wide range of fighters either past or going forward to determine what a "normal" level of testosterone ratio would be."

If they do a study going backwards, it could show how many people are really cheating. That is huge news and sure to scare the crap out of a lot of guys.
3/21/13 6:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kings21
36 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/31/09
Posts: 2595
ns_echoes - 
Anderson's BBC in my Goku -  Wat does this have to do with trt Phone Post

Lowering the allowed T/E ratio from 6:1 to 4:1 will ostensibly affect the dosages of those on TRT.

They've agreed to survey fighters licensed in the state to determine a proper average for testosterone levels. Before, you either get a pass or fail. If you were under 6:1, they didn't record the exact ratio. If you went above 6:1, they recorded it.

So going forward, they will record all ratios, pass or fail.

If the data supports lowering to 4:1, they will change the current policy.

But the NSAC doesn't appear to be eliminating TUEs or anything like that. Just trying to force fighters to come in at lower levels.


Im a bit of a dummy when it comes to this but wouldnt it then be possible to get a higher than normal average if the majority of the tested fighters have higher test due to cheating? When you cycle off peds does your test drop back down to normal or is it still high?

I guess my concern is that if "normal" suddenly goes from 1.1 to like 4.1 then that could give the commission reason to raise the allowed levels? I dunno just talkin out of my ass here so correct me if that sounds totally retarded.
3/21/13 6:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Chiron
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/07
Posts: 795
sevr1 - The real big news isn't the mj or trt, it's this line right here:

"There was a proposal to conduct a study of a wide range of fighters either past or going forward to determine what a "normal" level of testosterone ratio would be."

If they do a study going backwards, it could show how many people are really cheating. That is huge news and sure to scare the crap out of a lot of guys.

I'm curious how accurate that "normal" range would be considering we all know there are quite a few fighters who use but cycle off by fight time so their hormonal levels may not be a good representation of an MMA athlete who has never used PEDs before.
3/21/13 7:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DonFreedomFrye
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/23/12
Posts: 1154
Kirik, did you do this????

I'm absolutely amazed and grateful. If it was you (and even if it wasn't), CHEERS to the greatest site owner/admin in the world.
3/21/13 7:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Foos
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/24/05
Posts: 3955
ViciousCesar - Happy to see that the medicinal marijuana issue will be addressed.

I'm surprised to be honest. Athletic commissions have not been the most rational organizations in the past.

Good to see some commonsense with the NSAC
3/21/13 7:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kirik
1400 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 51328
The UnderGround, Mayor
DonFreedomFrye - Kirik, did you do this????

I'm absolutely amazed and grateful. If it was you (and even if it wasn't), CHEERS to the greatest site owner/admin in the world.

No, thank you man! You caught Chris's error. I am grateful.

3/21/13 7:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ns_echoes
46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/20/08
Posts: 944
Kings21 - 
ns_echoes - 
Anderson's BBC in my Goku -  Wat does this have to do with trt Phone Post

Lowering the allowed T/E ratio from 6:1 to 4:1 will ostensibly affect the dosages of those on TRT.

They've agreed to survey fighters licensed in the state to determine a proper average for testosterone levels. Before, you either get a pass or fail. If you were under 6:1, they didn't record the exact ratio. If you went above 6:1, they recorded it.

So going forward, they will record all ratios, pass or fail.

If the data supports lowering to 4:1, they will change the current policy.

But the NSAC doesn't appear to be eliminating TUEs or anything like that. Just trying to force fighters to come in at lower levels.


Im a bit of a dummy when it comes to this but wouldnt it then be possible to get a higher than normal average if the majority of the tested fighters have higher test due to cheating? When you cycle off peds does your test drop back down to normal or is it still high?

I guess my concern is that if "normal" suddenly goes from 1.1 to like 4.1 then that could give the commission reason to raise the allowed levels? I dunno just talkin out of my ass here so correct me if that sounds totally retarded.

When it comes to TRT, guys could jack up their levels during camp and then bring them back down in time for a fight. So random testing is necessary to monitor those with TUEs.

I'm not totally sure how the survey process will shake out. My guess would be they average everyone who passes (T/E ratio below 6:1) and then they consider if 4:1 makes sense.

Also, not sure if they will utilize additional random testing or anything like that.

Worst case scenario, T/E ratio stays at 6:1.

3/21/13 10:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Porkchop
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/26/07
Posts: 9038
Thank god for Marc Ratner. I've met him and he is a gentleman.

Great to see that he is pushing this issue to the commission. It needs to be addressed.
3/21/13 11:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DanTheWolfman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/21/13 11:34 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 17320
Come on some of you, sure someone with a TUE can "Blast N Cruise" Blasting, IE taking the higher dosage than Dr. ordered during camp, Is Same damn thing as all the guys Cheating by Cycling On and off, or On and taper rt before fight.

Why a guy with TUE should be tested more than everyone else is a little strange (except for maybe past violaters that were still granted, like if Vitor or Overeem ever get granted TUEs).

As for MJ, Nick Diaz vs Gomi levels since he ingested should be punished pretty severe.

Nick Diaz and everyone else just slightly raised from smoking over a week ago should only be lightly punished if at all. Whatever the level is that is banned should be raised somewhat. These aren't guys smoking up and fighting same day. Whatever that level would be should be unacceptable. Though taken same week to deal with stress/media etc is somewhat same as Xanex.
3/21/13 11:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
303
118 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/13/02
Posts: 14010
ttt 4later
3/21/13 11:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Porkchop
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/26/07
Posts: 9043
DanTheWolfman - Come on some of you, sure someone with a TUE can "Blast N Cruise" Blasting, IE taking the higher dosage than Dr. ordered during camp, Is Same damn thing as all the guys Cheating by Cycling On and off, or On and taper rt before fight.

Why a guy with TUE should be tested more than everyone else is a little strange (except for maybe past violaters that were still granted, like if Vitor or Overeem ever get granted TUEs).

As for MJ, Nick Diaz vs Gomi levels since he ingested should be punished pretty severe.

Nick Diaz and everyone else just slightly raised from smoking over a week ago should only be lightly punished if at all. Whatever the level is that is banned should be raised somewhat. These aren't guys smoking up and fighting same day. Whatever that level would be should be unacceptable. Though taken same week to deal with stress/media etc is somewhat same as Xanex.

I don't know if it is strange to assume that they might abuse it. It isn't really fair to test them more than other fighters but that is just part of what you will have to deal with if you want to get legal roids I guess.

The really interesting thing to me is how no one ever talks about how if TRT is done and gone, so are many fighters who likely depend on it. Hendo, Sonnen, Belfort, Overeem, Mir, Griffen and many more will either retire on the spot or see their performances go straight downhill.

I never hear people say that they are or aren't worried that these guys may have to hang em up.

Not that it should matter. I personally would be alright with them retiring if they had to. I also don't support the use of TRT. But if it goes, a number of guys go with it.
3/22/13 9:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
charms434
45 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/30/09
Posts: 3560
Underground Blog -

NSAC considering changes to TRT policy

 

21 March 2013 • The Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC) held a public meeting today to discuss drug testing protocols, notably Temporary Use Exemptions (TUE) for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

Damon Martin reports on the meetings key points.

Current standards by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) allow for testosterone levels to reach a 4:1 ratio in testosterone to epitestosterone in a normal male athlete. The average for a normal functioning male is a 1:1 ratio. The NSAC allows up to a 6:1 ratio, but is considering the lower figure, as well as an additional, more expensive step, the carbon isotope test (CIR), that looks to see if the additional testosterone in the body is being produced naturally or by an outside product like synthetic testosterone or a performance enhancing drug.

There was a proposal to conduct a study of a wide range of fighters either past or going forward to determine what a "normal" level of testosterone ratio would be.

The commission plans to rerturn to the issue at their next meeting and have further discussions on the possibility of changing the legal ratios from 6:1 down to the WADA-recognized level of 4:1.

Read entire article...

 
THEY DON'T DO THE CARBON ISOTOPE TEST?!? Even the high school football team does that. Cheap bastards. Phone Post
3/22/13 2:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zed Wayne Zed
85 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/20/11
Posts: 1431
That's great news.

If you've abused the hell out of something and now have to use something else to play ball with guys who have always kept a clean game and never cheated, then screw you.

No one is EVER stronger than when they were naturally given.

Let's hope they follow through with this, and more AC's get on board.
3/22/13 2:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JerodR
59 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/17/07
Posts: 2829
Porkchop - 
DanTheWolfman - Come on some of you, sure someone with a TUE can "Blast N Cruise" Blasting, IE taking the higher dosage than Dr. ordered during camp, Is Same damn thing as all the guys Cheating by Cycling On and off, or On and taper rt before fight.

Why a guy with TUE should be tested more than everyone else is a little strange (except for maybe past violaters that were still granted, like if Vitor or Overeem ever get granted TUEs).

As for MJ, Nick Diaz vs Gomi levels since he ingested should be punished pretty severe.

Nick Diaz and everyone else just slightly raised from smoking over a week ago should only be lightly punished if at all. Whatever the level is that is banned should be raised somewhat. These aren't guys smoking up and fighting same day. Whatever that level would be should be unacceptable. Though taken same week to deal with stress/media etc is somewhat same as Xanex.

I don't know if it is strange to assume that they might abuse it. It isn't really fair to test them more than other fighters but that is just part of what you will have to deal with if you want to get legal roids I guess.

The really interesting thing to me is how no one ever talks about how if TRT is done and gone, so are many fighters who likely depend on it. Hendo, Sonnen, Belfort, Overeem, Mir, Griffen and many more will either retire on the spot or see their performances go straight downhill.

I never hear people say that they are or aren't worried that these guys may have to hang em up.

Not that it should matter. I personally would be alright with them retiring if they had to. I also don't support the use of TRT. But if it goes, a number of guys go with it.

That is just it.. Would things go down hill because people wouldn't be able to take it, or are people taking it because it is a legal way to gain advantage...?
3/22/13 3:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
whoabro
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/22/07
Posts: 9105
sevr1 - The real big news isn't the mj or trt, it's this line right here:

"There was a proposal to conduct a study of a wide range of fighters either past or going forward to determine what a "normal" level of testosterone ratio would be."

If they do a study going backwards, it could show how many people are really cheating. That is huge news and sure to scare the crap out of a lot of guys.
Yup. Phone Post
3/22/13 4:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bentleysuper8
25 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/9/05
Posts: 2241
I'm no scientist but if a normal athlete has a whatever ratio of 1:1, why the fuck would 4:1 be acceptable, let alone 6:1? I have no idea what the relation of testosterone to epitestosterone means but 4:1 seems to me to be NOT normal.
3/22/13 5:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Chromium
108 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/30/11
Posts: 957

One problem with marijuana tests and that it's more complicated than simply raising the limit is that passing the threshold of 50 ng/mL for marijuana metabolites (THC-COOH) can be wildly different depending on the individual and how much of a stoner they are in their off-time. If they are a Matt Riddle-level stoner then they may actually be accumulating THC-COOH in their body fat faster than they can get rid of it, so even after training a month where they've raised their metabolism and started to reduce their metabolite levels, if they stop smoking then it could take them another month or more to get below 50 ng/mL. Meanwhile someone who rarely smokes could smoke a joint 3-4 days out and still pass their test.

Basically, usually the people that test positive might have stopped quite some time in advance but they happen to be chronic stoners.

They could raise the limit to 400 ng/mL and someone who is a chronic stoner might test positive even if they stopped like 5 days out, while someone who rarely has THC in their system could smoke a blunt after breakfast and still likely pass a test in the evening.

What they should be testing for is active intoxication, either via saliva or blood. I'm not sure if a saliva test is applicable here, but at the very least, fighters should have the option of requesting a blood test instead of a urine test for marijuana usage, to just make sure that they're not lit going into the fight.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.