UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Olympic boxing drops headgear, adds 10 pt must


3/23/13 3:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
dudefromisrael
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/08
Posts: 3848
Good stuff Phone Post
3/23/13 3:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8046
cdueck - 

I was also told by a friend that coaches on a national lever the IABA is looking into promoting pro fights in europe. I am not too sure of the truth of that though but it does make sense.


Yeah, this was discussed ad nauseum during the Olympic boxing broadcasts by Teddy Atlas. Eventually AIBA got so irritated with Teddy and co. that they banned them from ringside.

I get the feeling none of this has anything to do with safety or fairness.

But I'd really enjoy seeing the study re: headgear you describe in the other post though; I've found the exact opposite finding in everything that's been published. I linked a few already.

3/23/13 4:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matrixkick
54 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/15/11
Posts: 1493
hackett -
Matrixkick - 
Wish it would have been implemented a long time ago. Phone Post

That bout was scored with the 10 point must system. Give the article another read.

Yeah didn't read too closely. Headgears being dropped though, right?

All I saw was dropping headgear and with just that in place that Korean woulda quit way before the judges had a chance to score it. I still feel bad for Roy! Phone Post
3/23/13 4:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
trubs
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/13/11
Posts: 13
Anybody who's boxed before knows that the headgear doesn't do anything to reduce impact of a punch. It helps reduce cuts but a strong guy punching you in the head feels the same with or without headgear
3/23/13 4:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/23/13 4:12 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8047

Sorry Matrix, but you don't really know that. Same thing could have happened.

3/23/13 4:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
chadk
158 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/03
Posts: 10713
trubs - Anybody who's boxed before knows that the headgear doesn't do anything to reduce impact of a punch. It helps reduce cuts but a strong guy punching you in the head feels the same with or without headgear
Agreed. My experience is that it doesn't reduce anything but cuts and reduces your visibility and makes it harder to slip as well. Keep it on the ladies to reduce facial scarring from cuts though. Phone Post
3/23/13 4:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT Captain America
314 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/19/10
Posts: 6463
I'm more excited for the scoring change than the headgear. Phone Post
3/23/13 4:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matrixkick
54 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/15/11
Posts: 1494
hackett -

Sorry Matrix, but you don't really know that. Same thing could have happened.

Did you watch that bout? Roy literally danced around him. With no headgear he would have been a mess. No question.

Maybe you're right though. He still might have gotten fucked. Crooked bastards Phone Post
3/23/13 4:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
donkypunch55
206 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/20/09
Posts: 4220
hackett -

Headgear is helpful in avoiding injury per every study available which I've found.

http://www.scienceomega.com/article/168/a-safer-combination-for-boxers

http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf

The AIBA is a really strange organization.

That article is far from definitive. It clearly states that as far as rotational dispersion of energy (getting hit with a hook), little mitigation is provided by headgear. It also fails to address the damage that may be done by the prolonged punishment that headgear may allow or the instances of trauma incurred due to limited vision.
Good call on eliminating headgear IMO. Phone Post
3/23/13 4:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
donkypunch55
206 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/20/09
Posts: 4221
UGCTT Captain America - I'm more excited for the scoring change than the headgear. Phone Post
And this! Now we'll see a fight or two! Phone Post
3/23/13 4:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/23/13 4:28 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8048

Matrix, it was funny last night hearing Teddy Atlas rant about poor officiating on the co-main event on Friday Night Fights, then have them go to back the studio where they announce that Olympic boxing is returning to the "10 point must" system. It was like, oh sure that'll help everything...

3/23/13 4:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8049
donkypunch55 - 
hackett -

Headgear is helpful in avoiding injury per every study available which I've found.

http://www.scienceomega.com/article/168/a-safer-combination-for-boxers

http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf

The AIBA is a really strange organization.

That article is far from definitive. It clearly states that as far as rotational dispersion of energy (getting hit with a hook), little mitigation is provided by headgear. It also fails to address the damage that may be done by the prolonged punishment that headgear may allow or the instances of trauma incurred due to limited vision.
Good call on eliminating headgear IMO. Phone Post

No, in fact hooks are the focus of that the second study I cited. First clearly states "whilst headgear and boxing gloves constitute the most effective protective combination, they cannot completely mitigate the risk of damage."  I think that's a fair assessment.

Again, headgear represents an improvement in safety per every study I've found. I'd be interested in others. There's nothing cited in the article, but as I poke around it looks like AIBA had their own study.

Again, I think this has nothing to do with safety. But hey, I'll hope for the best.

3/23/13 4:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matrixkick
54 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/15/11
Posts: 1495
It was top 3 worst decisions I've ever seen and prob the worst considering that it was in the opponents country. Obvious bad decision is obvious. Phone Post
3/23/13 4:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MattBenwa
25 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/26/03
Posts: 10409
The Jones olympic robbery pisses me off to this day - a good analogy: Picture Frye X Bitetti, only they stop the beating and hand the victory to Bitetti since he was kicking so much ass.
3/23/13 4:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GSPsShadyHandWraps
102 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 21953
http://thejns.org/doi/pdf/10.3171/2011.12.JNS111478

This study is more recent than the one hackett linked regarding rotational force

It shows angular velocity from hooks is similar regardless of padding. There is also a study from Sweden that followed 47 amature boxers that showed an increase in certain proteins related to brain damage after their boxing matches

There is also the vision aspect that cant really be measured in studies. The punches that KO you are the ones you dont see and headgear is not exactly helping in this area

3/23/13 4:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buddie
272 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6407
I could not be happier about this decision.
3/23/13 5:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buddie
272 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6408
That was a well written OP.
3/23/13 5:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam_Bay
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/4/12
Posts: 313
Matrixkick -
hackett -
Matrixkick - 
Wish it would have been implemented a long time ago. Phone Post

That bout was scored with the 10 point must system. Give the article another read.

Yeah didn't read too closely. Headgears being dropped though, right?

All I saw was dropping headgear and with just that in place that Korean woulda quit way before the judges had a chance to score it. I still feel bad for Roy! Phone Post
You weren't too far off matrix. That fight was one a reason used to show why 10 point was bad, because it allowed fights to be fixed too easily by judges. So even though that was a 10 point must scored fight it is believed (read as: known to be) fixed.

My only problem with the article is kinda small. Where is says the addition of 10oz gloves didn't help because a bare hand can't punch hard repeatedly. Aren't bigger gloves bad more because they allow many smaller concussions to the received of the punch, which do not knock him out, but instead accumulate which has been shown to cause more damage than a big concussion that knocks the person out. The article makes it sound like the person punching is the one getting hurt. Phone Post
3/23/13 6:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MdGeist
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/10/12
Posts: 1649
Kirik - 
Batarnaque - Kinda hard for me to believe the headgear doesn't help mitigate brain damage and concussions, but overall, this is fantastic news.

My experience is anecdotal of course, but I find for sparring in the gym, with control, it helps. But if you are going all out, it really doesn't. It is hugely effective for stopping cuts and bruises, but for buzzers, not so much. You can't see as well, either.


I found that headgear really helps to absorb the force of those bone-on-bone sort of concussive blows: Shins, knees, elbow points, accidental headbutts, etc. IMO, The headgear absorbs the "hardness" of the boney surface that alot of energy gets transferred through.

But as far as abosrbing punches with 12 ounce gloves go, I agree with you that your brain gets rattled just as badly with or without the headgear. 

3/23/13 6:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
donkypunch55
206 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/20/09
Posts: 4222
hackett -
donkypunch55 - 
hackett -

Headgear is helpful in avoiding injury per every study available which I've found.

http://www.scienceomega.com/article/168/a-safer-combination-for-boxers

http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf

The AIBA is a really strange organization.

That article is far from definitive. It clearly states that as far as rotational dispersion of energy (getting hit with a hook), little mitigation is provided by headgear. It also fails to address the damage that may be done by the prolonged punishment that headgear may allow or the instances of trauma incurred due to limited vision.
Good call on eliminating headgear IMO. Phone Post

No, in fact hooks are the focus of that the second study I cited. First clearly states "whilst headgear and boxing gloves constitute the most effective protective combination, they cannot completely mitigate the risk of damage."  I think that's a fair assessment.

Again, headgear represents an improvement in safety per every study I've found. I'd be interested in others. There's nothing cited in the article, but as I poke around it looks like AIBA had their own study.

Again, I think this has nothing to do with safety. But hey, I'll hope for the best.

Ah, I didn't realize there were two links posted and I only looked at the 1st. Upon reading the second I am still dubious but my incredulousness lies more from an anecdotal stand point as opposed to a scientific one so I don't have a rebuttal based upon facts (yet, I'll look around).
I think we are in agreement however as far as our skepticism regarding the intentions behind the rule change. In my experience fighter safety is far less important than the appearance of caring about fighter safety. Two totally different things. Phone Post
3/23/13 6:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8050
Agree 100%.
3/23/13 8:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hackett
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8051
GSPsShadyHandWraps - http://thejns.org/doi/pdf/10.3171/2011.12.JNS111478

This study is more recent than the one hackett linked regarding rotational force

It shows angular velocity from hooks is similar regardless of padding. There is also a study from Sweden that followed 47 amature boxers that showed an increase in certain proteins related to brain damage after their boxing matches

There is also the vision aspect that cant really be measured in studies. The punches that KO you are the ones you dont see and headgear is not exactly helping in this area


Thanks for posting this, it's interesting for sure. The authors suggest researching measures which would include better protection from rotational force, but in the end, seems they conclude overall wearing headgear is an improvement over boxing glove to the bare head.

From that study's conclusion: "Of the 3 real-world conditions (MMA glove–bare head, boxing glove–bare head, and boxing glove–boxing headgear) studied, the boxing glove–boxing headgear condition had the most meaningful reduction in most of the parameters quantified and should provide the best overall head and neck injury protection for competitors."

3/23/13 9:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sgotwalks
1345 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/31/10
Posts: 8854
Kirik - 
Batarnaque - Kinda hard for me to believe the headgear doesn't help mitigate brain damage and concussions, but overall, this is fantastic news.

My experience is anecdotal of course, but I find for sparring in the gym, with control, it helps. But if you are going all out, it really doesn't. It is hugely effective for stopping cuts and bruises, but for buzzers, not so much. You can't see as well, either.


Spot on!

3/24/13 2:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
victorchensky
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/7/07
Posts: 848
i used to agree with the lot of you guys with the whole, hey headgear makes it even worse because the glove can grip and rip the head even harder. however after using headgear more and sparring for numerous years now, i just cant agree.

i think headgear helps reduce considerable damage but, i certainly dont have proof. i can say for certain that i felt a difference but, that is far from concrete evidence.
3/24/13 9:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Steve4192
223 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/1/07
Posts: 8319
If they were REALLY concerned about fighter safety and reducing concussions, they would get rid of gloves and hand wraps too. Sure there would be a lot more broken hands, but that would be more than offset by a drastic dropoff in concussions.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.