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UnderGround Forums >> Quebec gives its BS statement re: the GSP weighin


3/28/13 1:54 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 03/28/13 2:03 AM
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"You can stop. It is obvious that you're going to spew this same nonsense over and over."

No, everything I said is factually correct. The regs don't say the weights have to include the decimals, nor were the decimals discarded only for this event.

However your comment "whenever they feel like it" is certainly unfounded. For all you know, RIngside MMA and the boxing promoters specifically requested the full numbers including decimal points be used, while the UFC prefers the round numbers and CONSISTENTLY use them when they have the option -- as in Montreal and Brazil.

"This discussion is NOT about the UFC"

Oh my bad, all these posts are because people all of a suddenly woke up and realized they don't like the idea of rounding weights, on principle, after it's been done publicly in one event after another for five years? It's not about the UFC, but the UFC is apparently the only promotion for which the AC does it according to you?

"The Brazil cards were NOT governed by an athletic commission AT ALL until the Belfort/Bisping card so that point is completely irrelevant."

When you, in post after post, imply that something unique happened in this event -- oh sorry, "certain events whenever they feel like it" -- but we see the same thing done in many other events and not just limited to this AC -- it certainly is relevant. 

Why don't you just say you don't like weights being rounded, period, and quit pretending this was a unique event?

 

3/28/13 2:07 AM
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orcus
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Btw, gotta love Diaz's lawyer: "I know this: Georges would have gassed in that fight if he had tried to make weight."

The guy not only knows that GSP failed to make weight, but also knows exactly how much that extra .1 to .9lb would have affected him. What a guy!

3/28/13 2:18 AM
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UGCTT_SidRival
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Bick Koxer - who gives a flying fuck. has GSP ever not made weight? Phone Post
If what they're saying is true about the allowance then we don't actually know if he's ever missed. Could easily be smeared. Phone Post
3/28/13 8:35 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

Btw, gotta love Diaz's lawyer: "I know this: Georges would have gassed in that fight if he had tried to make weight."

The guy not only knows that GSP failed to make weight, but also knows exactly how much that extra .1 to .9lb would have affected him. What a guy!

How.is it any different than the assumptions you have made 253747262 times in these threads that there is absolutely nothing suspect going on and GSP was 100% on weight?

You're both making assumptions. Phone Post
3/28/13 8:44 AM
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vincan469
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus -

Btw, gotta love Diaz's lawyer: "I know this: Georges would have gassed in that fight if he had tried to make weight."

The guy not only knows that GSP failed to make weight, but also knows exactly how much that extra .1 to .9lb would have affected him. What a guy!

How.is it any different than the assumptions you have made 253747262 times in these threads that there is absolutely nothing suspect going on and GSP was 100% on weight?

You're both making assumptions. Phone Post

when it is announced that the fighter made weight it is a lot easier to make the assumption than the weigh in official are lying and he was overweight.
3/28/13 8:48 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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vincan469 -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus -

Btw, gotta love Diaz's lawyer: "I know this: Georges would have gassed in that fight if he had tried to make weight."

The guy not only knows that GSP failed to make weight, but also knows exactly how much that extra .1 to .9lb would have affected him. What a guy!

How.is it any different than the assumptions you have made 253747262 times in these threads that there is absolutely nothing suspect going on and GSP was 100% on weight?

You're both making assumptions. Phone Post

when it is announced that the fighter made weight it is a lot easier to make the assumption than the weigh in official are lying and he was overweight.
Wow. You just don't get it. Phone Post
3/28/13 9:21 AM
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MattyECB
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Incompetence, and luckily AC incompetence that had little impact on the fight.

No CIA mafioso conspiracy here imo
3/28/13 9:49 AM
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orcus
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus -

Btw, gotta love Diaz's lawyer: "I know this: Georges would have gassed in that fight if he had tried to make weight."

The guy not only knows that GSP failed to make weight, but also knows exactly how much that extra .1 to .9lb would have affected him. What a guy!

How.is it any different than the assumptions you have made 253747262 times in these threads that there is absolutely nothing suspect going on and GSP was 100% on weight?

You're both making assumptions. Phone Post

I assume GSP made weight and nothing was done specifically to "save" him because there is nothing at all to suggest he failed to make weight, he has never failed to make weight in his career, and nothing that was done is anything that was not done -- publicly, in full view of the media -- at other events. This is the support for my assumption.

Now what are the supporting facts for the lawyer's assumptions that 1) GSP didn't make weight, 2) GSP didn't try to make weight, and 3) GSP would have gassed if he had? All three are things that have never happened before, nor is there any evidence for those entirely unique events to have taken place this time.

3/28/13 9:56 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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^^^^^^ Yes, you both are making assumptions, and both attempt to present them as facts. Congrats on aligning yourself with someone you have already called ignorant! Well done.

3/28/13 10:00 AM
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Winston Wolf
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complete waste if time arguing with Orcus he will never ever admit hes wrong Funny thing when this story came out I thought it wass yet more crying from Diaz and camp ( who I always root against ,GSPs my favorite fighter ) Untillllll i saw the video
3/28/13 10:09 AM
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orcus
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 

^^^^^^ Yes, you both are making assumptions, and both attempt to present them as facts. Congrats on aligning yourself with someone you have already called ignorant! Well done.


Yes, we are both making assumptions because neither have proof. My assumptions are based on past experience and supporting facts. His assumptions are based on nothing and run counter to all past experience. I am not presenting anything but facts as facts, while he "knows" GSP would have gassed.

So in other words what we are doing is almost exactly opposite, so guess what? I'm afraid you're wrong again.

3/28/13 10:18 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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No, you also present  your ASSUMPTIONS as facts regularly in this thread and the others on this topic.

 

His assumptions are based off things you do not have access to, like the actual contracts of the fighters...

You will cling to all he has made public, as if a lawyer would spill all of his ammunition publicly. Your legal novice is showing, bumble bee tuna.

3/28/13 10:34 AM
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Lazer MMA
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What is clear is per the standard of title fights (weight could not exceed 170) the contract read 170 LBS & 170 = 170.0 not 170.9!

Non-title fights have an allowance of 1 pound so it's clear the intention was to make 170.9 OK in title fights! DERP

3/28/13 10:57 AM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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guys guys guys. leave orcus alone. its like trying to convince a crazy person that thinks the sky is red that the sky is blue. you simply can't do it.

3/28/13 11:29 AM
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Jambo888
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the real question, for the people who want to consider fractions of pounds, is what the allowable tolerance of the scale and what was the actual tolerance of the scale used

3/28/13 11:32 AM
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Jambo888
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That just it, it is abnormal and suggests it was trotted out at the very last minute in anticipation of someone not making weight. Nothing more nothing less. That who remains to be seen.

Some will have you believe it is Nick based on his past failures and that of his brothers, others will have you believe it is GSP who under doctor advisement had to retain fluids in order to combat his simmering flu.


The "not counting the decimal" thing is either an actual procedure or it isn't. If it is, and it is written somewhere that could have been referenced prior to the fight, then there really is no issue.

I'd have a hard time believing that an athletic commission would not have to explicitly spell out the procedures they use for things....It would seem to be part of the reason why AC's exist.

how many decimal places accuracy do the non-electronic scales provide? 

3/28/13 12:09 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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Edited: 03/28/13 12:14 PM
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Why is there such fascination and debate over which decimal place is used? At some point every athletic commission has to make a decision as to what level of tolerance (precision) is going to be used. Why are people not worried about a welter weight fighter, in a title fight, weighing 170.01 in Las Vegas? 170.01 is greater than 170 as is 170.001 etc. The Nevada state athletic commission ignores the second decimal place (and everything after.) At some point the athletic commissions need to say that “It’s close enough” because you can’t go chasing that last decimal place forever. Despite previous arguments to the contrary, the scale does not get to make the rules, people do. My toaster does not determine how dark to make my toast, I do and use the tool (toaster) accordingly.

For those people that are claiming that the Quebec athletic commission broke rules by ignoring the last decimal, that simply cannot be true as no rule exists in Quebec. One cannot break a non-existent rule. A look through the rules for combat sports lists no rules as to what tolerance (precision) that weight must be recorded. The closest there is to that is the requirement that the scale have the ability to read to 0.1 kg, which is 0.2(2) lbs. With no written rule decisions as to how the weight is to be measured becomes an ad hoc decision. This may, in part, explain why there has been inconsistency from one promotion to another. There is no denying that it would be a benefit to formalize all of these procedures and have them listed in the official rules for combat sports, but not having them does not in any logical way mean there is a conspiracy to give one fighter an advantage over another.

Out of curiosity, for those familiar with the Nevada state athletic commission do they have it officially listed as to what decimal place weight is to be measured and recorded? I briefly looked around their site but couldn’t find the document and many of their links generated errors. I’m curious if other athletic commissions have this defined or elsewhere this is also an ad hoc decision.

Regardless, it is the role of the athletic commission to measure and report official weights and they get to say what is close enough. In Nevada 170.01 is close enough to 170, in Quebec 170.1 is close enough. The absence of a written rule does not mean the tolerance arbitrary defaults to 0.1 lbs. The major difference is what decimal place they choose to report it to. Quebec is somewhat funny in the way they round, but again this has been consistent for UFC events. This probably stems from the use of metric in Canada and imperial in the US and is an attempt to avoid confusion between converting between the two, but that is purely a guess on my part. The promoter defines the upper weight limit (the weight classes) and the athletic commission ensures the weight is achieved by whatever method they choose, regardless of how unpopular it is on these forms. On the same note, the athletic commission also has the authority to deny fights based on weight differences. Mighty Mouse would not be allowed to fight Jon Jones even if they both weighed-in less than 205 lbs. As it stands now, the athletic commissions have the final (and only) say as to how weight is determined. If Diaz is successful in his challenge then that will change, but as it stands now the athletic commission says what is “close enough.” People are certainly free to dislike the way the Quebec athletic commission reports weight and say it is much too lenient, but to extend that to a conspiracy is a tenuous argument at best.

The extra weight allowed during the boxing match that has been brought up a number of times certainly is cause for concern as this directly violates the Quebec athletic commissions own written rules. However it has little value with respect to the GSP vs. Diaz fight as neither fighter was given or required extra time and such an argument is out of context.
3/28/13 12:12 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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Edited: 03/28/13 12:12 PM
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"Why is there such fascination and debate over which decimal place is used? At some point every athletic commission has to make a decision as to what level of tolerance (precision) is going to be used. Why are people not worried about a welter weight fighter, in a title fight, weighing 170.01 in Las Vegas? 170.01 is greater than 170 as is 170.001 etc. The Nevada state athletic commission ignores the second decimal place (and everything after.) At some point the athletic commissions need to say that “It’s close enough” because you can’t go chasing that last decimal place for ever. Despite previous arguments to the contrary, the scale does not get to make the rules, people do. My toaster does not determine how dark to make my toast, I do and use the tool (toaster) accordingly."

 

as far as i know, every jurisdiction other than quebec DOES use the decimal place...so the more appropriate question is, why NOT? if they want to deviate from every other AC in the universe...k...but you need to put that in writing so the fighters are on notice...dont expect them to keep track of every weighin in every jurisdiction - thats just ridiculous...

3/28/13 12:18 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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Edited: 03/28/13 12:20 PM
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"as far as i know, every jurisdiction other than quebec DOES use the decimal place...so the more appropriate question is, why NOT? if they want to deviate from every other AC in the universe...k...but you need to put that in writing so the fighters are on notice...dont expect them to keep track of every weighin in every jurisdiction - thats just ridiculous..."

I believe Calgary (Alberta) also does and events in Brazil did as well. Quebec isn't unique but it certainly isn't common.

I will however completely agree that it should be standardized and written in the official rules.

As far as the fighters keeping track of the various rules, I would suggest that role should fall to the promoter (UFC.) They have enough employees that surely one could keep a list of the the various rules and inform the fighters and/or managers as part of a briefing. I can't see how that scenario would be unreasonable
3/28/13 12:37 PM
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sadisticsoldier
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Curtis E Bare, they ignore ALL decimals, not just the last. Also, 170.9 = 170 in this case, not just 170.1.
3/28/13 12:44 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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sadisticsoldier - Curtis E Bare, they ignore ALL decimals, not just the last. Also, 170.9 = 170 in this case, not just 170.1.

Yes, I am aware. The "1" was indicated as a place holder. If it makes more sense you can replace

"Why are people not worried about a welter weight fighter, in a title fight, weighing 170.01 in Las Vegas? 170.01 is greater than 170 as is 170.001 etc."

with

"Why are people not worried about a welter weight fighter, in a title fight, weighing 170.0X in Las Vegas? 170.0X is greater than 170 as is 170.00X etc. - where X is any non-zero number."

But that version seems like it would lead to more confusion.
3/28/13 12:59 PM
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SQUEEZIE
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Dr Gonzo - 
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Dr Doom - Probably shady but it is only 1 pound.

Correct me if I have smoked too much crack today, but I swear that 1-pound rule is around everywhere.

I always see in weigh-in reports Fighter A (170) vs Fighter B (171) and the fight in on without issue.

I have followed the UFC/MMA for about 13 years and can honestly say I have never watched a weigh-in.

Any fan here who hasn't been a lazy fuck for more than a decade that can help me out?

1 lb rule doesnt apply to championship fights (and maybe main event fights as well?)


You seem to be ignoring the second part of this illicit conversation where the UFC rep says that it will be announced as 170 if they are between 170 and 171. But if they are over they would need to make weight and have an hour to do so.

I don't see any proof that GSP was over to begin with.

huh? im just responding to his post and clarifying that there is no 1 lb allowance for a championship fight.


Maybe not in Nevada and most other places but it is apparently not that way in Quebec.

But Again I will point out that the UFC rep (the whole source of this issue) says that if either fighter weighed between 170 and 171 pounds they would need to make weight and would have one hour to do so. What exactly is the problem?

he was just answering the guys question...so ill take a stab at it.

the first problem i see and or hear is that you are not allotted another hour according to the rules

the second thing is i took it as if they miss what they consider to be made weight(anything less than 171) that they would then get a hr to make that weight.not the true weight limit(max 170).

summary of convo is ...anything less than 171 is good.and if u cant make that weight you will be giving a extra hour to do so.this is off the record because non of this is actually allowed.gd luck and see you in a bit at weigh ins.
3/28/13 1:05 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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RampageFitsLikeAGlove -
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"Why is there such fascination and debate over which decimal place is used? At some point every athletic commission has to make a decision as to what level of tolerance (precision) is going to be used. Why are people not worried about a welter weight fighter, in a title fight, weighing 170.01 in Las Vegas? 170.01 is greater than 170 as is 170.001 etc. The Nevada state athletic commission ignores the second decimal place (and everything after.) At some point the athletic commissions need to say that “It’s close enough” because you can’t go chasing that last decimal place for ever. Despite previous arguments to the contrary, the scale does not get to make the rules, people do. My toaster does not determine how dark to make my toast, I do and use the tool (toaster) accordingly."

 

as far as i know, every jurisdiction other than quebec DOES use the decimal place...so the more appropriate question is, why NOT? if they want to deviate from every other AC in the universe...k...but you need to put that in writing so the fighters are on notice...dont expect them to keep track of every weighin in every jurisdiction - thats just ridiculous...


Amazing how you've spent countless hours on this topic yet refuse to do any research on your own.  It's already been pointed out several times that events in Japan (Silva vs Stann), Canada (other than Montreal), UK (Barao vs Macdonald), Brazil (Vitor vs Bisping), Australia (Sotiropolous vs Pearson), Sweden (Gustaffson vs Silva) or Japan again (Edgar vs Henderson).  Hell, for shits and giggles I googled the Browne vs Bigfoot Silva weigh in results in Minneapolis, MN and they didn't use decimals either.  And I'm sure you won't bother to check on this, but Minnesota is in the USA. 

It appears that most AC's don't use the decimal points outside the US and some don't here in the US but again, you would never acknowledge that as it doesn't fit into your witch hunt.

Two things:

1. Do they not report decimals or do they not count decimals. If the latter, show me this evidence u speak of.

2. What do those commission say in their rules? Phone Post
3/28/13 1:08 PM
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SQUEEZIE
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


Read this article

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/26/4149886/nick-diazs-camp-to-file-complaint-over-georges-st-pierres-ufc-158

It states that their contracted weight was 170, nothing over

This just brings us back to the same issue, if it only reads "170" then the implied precision is the nearest pound. Although most ACs go to the nearest 0.1 pound, Quebec does not. Different ACs do things differently.

lol.this exactly why they dont even fuck with the decimals.if the scale reads anything more than the max of 170 its over.its fucking elementary...

and in what world is 170.0000000000000000000000000000000001 not more than 170?
3/28/13 1:12 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Edited: 03/28/13 1:12 PM
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Funny that the commission supposedly doesn't count the decimal at all (which is NOT written in their rules anywhere, and apparently they pick and choose which events they enforce this rules), yet in their rules they DO require a specific type of scale that can read well past just the first decimal.

 

So: If it is boxing or a non-UFC MMA event they DO use the decimal, but for some odd reason the UFC events they don't, despite that not being written in their rules anywhere.

 

Also funny that it was a UFC employee making these statements to Diaz, yet the UFC 100% refuses to comment on this istuation at all...


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