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UnderGround Forums >> Quebec gives its BS statement re: the GSP weighin


3/26/13 4:24 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.
3/26/13 4:24 PM
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And heres the rule regarding the 1lb allowance

 

Except with the approval of the Commission, or its executive director, the classes for mixed martial arts contests or exhibitions and the weights for each class shall be:

Flyweight  125 pounds and under
Bantamweight  over 125 to 135 pounds
Featherweight  over 135 to 145 pounds
Lightweight  over 145 to 155 pounds
Welterweight  over 155 to 170 pounds
Middleweight  over 170 to 185 pounds
Light Heavyweight over 185 to 205 pounds
Heavyweight  over 205 to 265 pounds
Super Heavyweight over 265 pounds

In non-championship fights, there shall be allowed a 1 pound weigh allowance.  In championship fights, the participants must weigh no more than that permitted for the relevant weight division.

3/26/13 4:24 PM
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slamming
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Diaz fans will dig for anything. It's funny they can't just listen to him talk after the fight and laugh.

-missed open workouts, got in late. every other fighter from the States made it, but not nick's fault.
-slept till 8pm. wasn't awake yet.
-had no help in training
-felt flat out there, lost 5 rounds but is ready to go now
-gsp's wraps were loaded
-we were lied to about the scale
-gsp hits like a girl, he wants a rematch (2 fight losing streak)

this isnt about nick..its about a potential abusive practice that is being used to favor one fighter over another.


you mean like allowing one fighter to skip all press events and workouts while the other must attend?

.......
LOL Phone Post
3/26/13 4:25 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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Edited: 03/26/13 4:26 PM
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Does anyone think he wouldn't have lost the half pound in 20 minutes in the sauna? Not a big deal. It isn't up to the athletic commission to hold seminars and educate mma fighters what their rules are. It is up to the fighters to know this shit. If I break a law, being ignorant to the fact that I broke a law does not excuse me just as not being aware of a athletic commission policy does not excuse a fighter. Pretty sure everyone in that area know the rules. Imagine if some Canadian org hosted an event on our soil and they complained because of some small discrepancy. We would tell them to go fuck themselves, our commissions our rules
3/26/13 4:25 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


Read this article

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/26/4149886/nick-diazs-camp-to-file-complaint-over-georges-st-pierres-ufc-158

It states that their contracted weight was 170, nothing over

This just brings us back to the same issue, if it only reads "170" then the implied precision is the nearest pound. Although most ACs go to the nearest 0.1 pound, Quebec does not. Different ACs do things differently.

Where are you getting this info? Ive never heard of fighters being able to weigh in at 171.1 for a non title fight or 170.1 for a title.

Ive heard fighters get called out .1 over and they had to take their shorts off to make it

It happens all the time in places where the ACs define 0.1 lb as the cutoff. Quebec is not one of them.
3/26/13 4:25 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....

3/26/13 4:28 PM
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Dr Gonzo
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Correct me if I have smoked too much crack today, but I swear that 1-pound rule is around everywhere.

I always see in weigh-in reports Fighter A (170) vs Fighter B (171) and the fight in on without issue.

I have followed the UFC/MMA for about 13 years and can honestly say I have never watched a weigh-in.

Any fan here who hasn't been a lazy fuck for more than a decade that can help me out?

1 lb rule doesnt apply to championship fights (and maybe main event fights as well?)


You seem to be ignoring the second part of this illicit conversation where the UFC rep says that it will be announced as 170 if they are between 170 and 171. But if they are over they would need to make weight and have an hour to do so.

I don't see any proof that GSP was over to begin with.

huh? im just responding to his post and clarifying that there is no 1 lb allowance for a championship fight.


Maybe not in Nevada and most other places but it is apparently not that way in Quebec.

But Again I will point out that the UFC rep (the whole source of this issue) says that if either fighter weighed between 170 and 171 pounds they would need to make weight and would have one hour to do so. What exactly is the problem?
3/26/13 4:29 PM
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sacredhate
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.
3/26/13 4:29 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.
3/26/13 4:29 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


An example of favorable treatment would be to show an American fighter who was over the weight and they punished in some way. Otherwise there is no argument here. It is up to the fighters and their managers to educate themselves on what the rules are.
3/26/13 4:30 PM
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Standup29
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My interpretation is that during the conversation about weight he was saying theoretically they could weigh anything as long is its under 171 because they don't record after a decimal.

We all hear what we want though. Phone Post
3/26/13 4:32 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?

3/26/13 4:33 PM
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Dr Gonzo
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


Read this article

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/26/4149886/nick-diazs-camp-to-file-complaint-over-georges-st-pierres-ufc-158

It states that their contracted weight was 170, nothing over

This just brings us back to the same issue, if it only reads "170" then the implied precision is the nearest pound. Although most ACs go to the nearest 0.1 pound, Quebec does not. Different ACs do things differently.

Where are you getting this info? Ive never heard of fighters being able to weigh in at 171.1 for a non title fight or 170.1 for a title.

Ive heard fighters get called out .1 over and they had to take their shorts off to make it

Non title fights aren't contracted at 171, they are contracted at 170, the commission just allows a pound in case of an error with the scale. Most commissions do not allow that pound in title fights but apparently the Quebec commission does.
3/26/13 4:34 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.

lol..what companies computers dont calculate pennies?

 

its really easy...if they wanted to give the fighters an allowance, they would say the max weight is 170.9...but they didnt do that, they said the max weight is 170...170.1 is greater than 170...this is the most plain and simple reading you can give to the contract, which is the reading that normally prevails in almost every situation...you have to read into the contract that decimals dont count for your interpreation to work...courts typically dont read into assumptions like that

3/26/13 4:34 PM
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sacredhate
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

actually, the precision of the scale is 100% the scale manufacturers responsibility as it pertains to the repeatability/consistency of results.

meaning if you put a "170lb" weight on it, took a reading, removed it and repeated...precision would indicate that you got the same result every time.

now, the fact that the scale was calibrated in such a weigh that the 170lb weighs shows up as weighing 170.2lbs pertains to accuracy.

now. the manufacturer is responsible for making commitments towards standards for both accuracy and precision...but it is up to the end user to determine if the accuracy and precision of the scale are acceptable for their purposes.

so, actually, all, and none of it is up to the scale manufacturer.
3/26/13 4:35 PM
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nineohfive - Who cares?

Diaz fans will dig for anything. It's funny they can't just listen to him talk after the fight and laugh.

-missed open workouts, got in late. every other fighter from the States made it, but not nick's fault.
-slept till 8pm. wasn't awake yet.
-had no help in training
-felt flat out there, lost 5 rounds but is ready to go now
-gsp's wraps were loaded
-we were lied to about the scale
-gsp hits like a girl, he wants a rematch (2 fight losing streak)

this isnt about nick..its about a potential abusive practice that is being used to favor one fighter over another.


you mean like allowing one fighter to skip all press events and workouts while the other must attend?

.......
As a Diaz fan , that's actually a good point , I'm gonna go now Phone Post
3/26/13 4:35 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


An example of favorable treatment would be to show an American fighter who was over the weight and they punished in some way. Otherwise there is no argument here. It is up to the fighters and their managers to educate themselves on what the rules are.

and how do they know what the rule is if it isnt in the statutory code?

3/26/13 4:36 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.

lol..what companies computers dont calculate pennies?

 

its really easy...if they wanted to give the fighters an allowance, they would say the max weight is 170.9...but they didnt do that, they said the max weight is 170...170.1 is greater than 170...this is the most plain and simple reading you can give to the contract, which is the reading that normally prevails in almost every situation...you have to read into the contract that decimals dont count for your interpreation to work...courts typically dont read into assumptions like that


ever work at a company that has million dollar budgets that reports, tracks, and bases results on pennies.

show me one financial report for a multi-million dollar company where the pennies are a part of of their earnings forecasts or discussion.

pennies show up in the balance sheet, but not the scorecard.
3/26/13 4:37 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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fedor_saku_wand - 
ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun - Does anyone think he wouldn't have lost the half pound in 20 minutes in the sauna? Not a big deal. It isn't up to the athletic commission to hold seminars and educate mma fighters what their rules are. It is up to the fighters to know this shit. If I break a law, being ignorant to the fact that I broke a law does not excuse me just as not being aware of a athletic commission policy does not excuse a fighter. Pretty sure everyone in that area know the rules. Imagine if some Canadian org hosted an event on our soil and they complained because of some small discrepancy. We would tell them to go fuck themselves, our commissions our rules

Thats not the issue. None of these questions have been answered


The contract states they fight at 170... how is the athletic commission allowed to change that?

Where in the rules does it say that they have this .9 lb allowance?

When did the rules change since they used to round off to the half pound (UFC 83 for example)?

Why werent Kos and Condit made aware of this rule when they fought GSP in Montreal?

Why wasnt Diaz told until after he was done cutting weight?

How long has GSP known about this?

The athletic commissions interpretation of what 170 means is all that matters. Blame the UFC for not educating the fighters
3/26/13 4:37 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


Read this article

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/26/4149886/nick-diazs-camp-to-file-complaint-over-georges-st-pierres-ufc-158

It states that their contracted weight was 170, nothing over

This just brings us back to the same issue, if it only reads "170" then the implied precision is the nearest pound. Although most ACs go to the nearest 0.1 pound, Quebec does not. Different ACs do things differently.

Where are you getting this info? Ive never heard of fighters being able to weigh in at 171.1 for a non title fight or 170.1 for a title.

Ive heard fighters get called out .1 over and they had to take their shorts off to make it

Non title fights aren't contracted at 171, they are contracted at 170, the commission just allows a pound in case of an error with the scale. Most commissions do not allow that pound in title fights but apparently the Quebec commission does.

there are two problems with that: 1) this contradicts what is posted on the UFC's own website (http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations) and 2) why is the rule "off-the-record"?

3/26/13 4:39 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.
3/26/13 4:39 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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Or write the contract to say 170.0
3/26/13 4:40 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.

lol..what companies computers dont calculate pennies?

 

its really easy...if they wanted to give the fighters an allowance, they would say the max weight is 170.9...but they didnt do that, they said the max weight is 170...170.1 is greater than 170...this is the most plain and simple reading you can give to the contract, which is the reading that normally prevails in almost every situation...you have to read into the contract that decimals dont count for your interpreation to work...courts typically dont read into assumptions like that


ever work at a company that has million dollar budgets that reports, tracks, and bases results on pennies.

show me one financial report for a multi-million dollar company where the pennies are a part of of their earnings forecasts or discussion.

pennies show up in the balance sheet, but not the scorecard.

yes, i have plenty of companies as clients that have multi million or billion dollar budgets...and yes, ive seen their audited financial statements/projections etc. but thats not really relevant..if they have a record of the expenses down to a penny, and the expenses exceed the amount in the contract, you get no bonus

 

just like we DO have scales that do go into decimals...if they want to not take into account decimals, they should have used a scale that doesnt show decimals (although that would fuck them because the scale would probably round up everything .5 and above)

3/26/13 4:43 PM
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Dr Gonzo
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


Read this article

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/26/4149886/nick-diazs-camp-to-file-complaint-over-georges-st-pierres-ufc-158

It states that their contracted weight was 170, nothing over

This just brings us back to the same issue, if it only reads "170" then the implied precision is the nearest pound. Although most ACs go to the nearest 0.1 pound, Quebec does not. Different ACs do things differently.

Where are you getting this info? Ive never heard of fighters being able to weigh in at 171.1 for a non title fight or 170.1 for a title.

Ive heard fighters get called out .1 over and they had to take their shorts off to make it

Non title fights aren't contracted at 171, they are contracted at 170, the commission just allows a pound in case of an error with the scale. Most commissions do not allow that pound in title fights but apparently the Quebec commission does.

there are two problems with that: 1) this contradicts what is posted on the UFC's own website (http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations) and 2) why is the rule "off-the-record"?


The first line in that section of rules says "Except with the approval of the Commission"

I don't know why that guy said anything about the rule being off the record, he works for the UFC not the commission.
3/26/13 4:43 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.


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