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UnderGround Forums >> Quebec gives its BS statement re: the GSP weighin


3/26/13 4:43 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.

3/26/13 4:43 PM
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sacredhate
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.

lol..what companies computers dont calculate pennies?

 

its really easy...if they wanted to give the fighters an allowance, they would say the max weight is 170.9...but they didnt do that, they said the max weight is 170...170.1 is greater than 170...this is the most plain and simple reading you can give to the contract, which is the reading that normally prevails in almost every situation...you have to read into the contract that decimals dont count for your interpreation to work...courts typically dont read into assumptions like that


ever work at a company that has million dollar budgets that reports, tracks, and bases results on pennies.

show me one financial report for a multi-million dollar company where the pennies are a part of of their earnings forecasts or discussion.

pennies show up in the balance sheet, but not the scorecard.

yes, i have plenty of companies as clients that have multi million or billion dollar budgets...and yes, ive seen their audited financial statements/projections etc. but thats not really relevant..if they have a record of the expenses down to a penny, and the expenses exceed the amount in the contract, you get no bonus

 

just like we DO have scales that do go into decimals...if they want to not take into account decimals, they should have used a scale that doesnt show decimals (although that would fuck them because the scale would probably round up everything .5 and above)


bullshit that somebody with a bonus set for staying within $500,000 doesn't get their bonus if the spend is a penny over.

thanks for playing.

and how would a scale without decimals fuck them? they'd have a new practice that would be well communicated and followed consistently and there would be no reason for dispute.

no decimals is actually the fairest way to go and i'm sure everyone would embrace it.
3/26/13 4:45 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

actually, the precision of the scale is 100% the scale manufacturers responsibility as it pertains to the repeatability/consistency of results.

meaning if you put a "170lb" weight on it, took a reading, removed it and repeated...precision would indicate that you got the same result every time.

now, the fact that the scale was calibrated in such a weigh that the 170lb weighs shows up as weighing 170.2lbs pertains to accuracy.

now. the manufacturer is responsible for making commitments towards standards for both accuracy and precision...but it is up to the end user to determine if the accuracy and precision of the scale are acceptable for their purposes.

so, actually, all, and none of it is up to the scale manufacturer.

I think you misread my post. "So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports?" of course the manufacturer defines the precision of the scale. The AC determines the precision, how many decimal places, they are going to record (or measure by way of scale selection) for a fighter's weight.

3/26/13 4:45 PM
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John Nic
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I thought Nick wouldn't bother with another stint in court considering the failure of his last appeal over metabolites.
3/26/13 4:46 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.


Wrong. If you are going to include anything in the decimals, this has to be in the contract. 170.0 means 170.0 170 means 170 and is open to some interpretation of how much you will allow in decimals to be over
3/26/13 4:47 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.


Wrong. If you are going to include anything in the decimals, this has to be in the contract. 170.0 means 170.0 170 means 170 and is open to some interpretation of how much you will allow in decimals to be over

lol..dude...are ytou trolling me?

 

tell me whey you have to include the decimals? on what basis? please explain to me.

3/26/13 4:48 PM
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so a WW in a non-title fight can weigh in at 171.9?

3/26/13 4:49 PM
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random gif

 

3/26/13 4:49 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.


"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology.
3/26/13 4:50 PM
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"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol

3/26/13 4:51 PM
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so a WW in a non-title fight can weigh in at 171.9?


yes, according to these guys yes. since decimals dont count.

3/26/13 4:52 PM
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


if the companies computers don't calculate pennies and truncate the number....you'd get your bonus.

"absolute" is a relative term....why don't they weigh to 1/100 of a lb? or why don't we get really accurate about weight, abandon lbs. and use milligrams, micrograms, or nanograms...even then you could decide maybe to go further and through nano, pico, femto and attograms. now we are at 18 decimal places.

and yet we still have more options towards measuring absolute more accurately...we have our friends the zepto and yoctogram...taking us to 24 decimal places.

and, although that's pretty fucking accurate...it's still not absolute.

lol..what companies computers dont calculate pennies?

 

its really easy...if they wanted to give the fighters an allowance, they would say the max weight is 170.9...but they didnt do that, they said the max weight is 170...170.1 is greater than 170...this is the most plain and simple reading you can give to the contract, which is the reading that normally prevails in almost every situation...you have to read into the contract that decimals dont count for your interpreation to work...courts typically dont read into assumptions like that

Do we even know if the scale they use even reads decimals?

I don't see how they changed the rules. The rules do not say they have to read to a certain decimal place. So what I understand is they expressed to Diaz they don't read decimals so as long as they are under 171 (because it won't read it) they are good.

Either way I don't for a second think they changed this for GSP to help him. Commisions make up rules not everyone agrees with. Some allow higher T:E ratios than others.

Lets be real here. The Diaz camp have made issues as much as possible surrounding this fight. From hand wraps to late flights (Gracie arranged the flights iirc) lots of issues that were unnecessary. Phone Post
3/26/13 4:54 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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So show us Nick's contract where it contradicts what was stated?  If you think it's a big conspiracy that was changed last minute, this should be easy to prove.  All dates, fight purses, weights, and many many other terms are clearly stated in the executed contract between the promotion and fighter.


dont have the bout agreement handy, but im pretty sure it will say the max weight is 170...170.1, 170.2, 170.3 is greater than 170 if you weren't sure...theres nothing in the contract or any law that i am aware of that says decimals dont count..


That's not really the issue, though... it not saying that decimals DON'T count. Does the contract stipulate that decimals DO count? If so, how many decimal's are to be used? 170.1 is greater than 170 just as 170.000000000000001 is greater than 170.

Seems to me if decimals are to count then the contract would be 170.0, clearly informing the fighter that the official weight would be carried out to the tenth pound.

a plain reading of the contract means anything in excess of 170 that is registerable by the scale is not allowed..its very very simple...170.1 is greater than 170.....you have to assume an additional provision into the contract that didnt exist in order for 170.1 NOT to be greater than 170

 


And where would one find this contract? If the contract indeed reads "170" then the precision as written in the contract is to the nearest pound, not the nearest 1/10 pound otherwise it would read "170.0"


its not to the nearest pound, its an absolute value. it doesn't have to read 170.0. You are reading a requirement into the contract that doesnt exist.

if an executive has a contract that says that you will be paid a $1M bonus if the company's expenses do not exceed $500,000 and the company comes in at $500,000.01 in expenses. Guess what, $500,000.01 is in excess of $500,000 and you get no bonus.


If it's 170 as an absolute value then a ww fighter cannot weigh 170.01, 170.001... 170.00000000000000001 lbs in a title fight.

You HAVE to define a cutoff at some point. Scales cannot measure to an infinite number of decimal places, to an absolute number.

Most ACs define that cutoff as 0.1 lb, Quebec defines that cutoff at 1 lb. It is impossible to measure absolute values.

the cutoff is defined by the scale...so if the scale measures out to .0001, that is the cutoff, if its .01, thats the cutoff...pretty simple really...OR if there is a WRITTEN rule of the commission that would supercede the contract..but there is no such written rule...there is an "off-the-record" practice that the quebenc commission may, or may not tell the fighters....


"the cutoff is defined by the scale" says who? So the scale manufacturer is now responsible for determining the precision for weight limits for combat sports? Of course not, the ACs set the precision.

says logic...170.000001 is > than the maximum of 170, 170.0001 is > than the maximum of 170...170.1 is > than the maximum of 170...whatever scale you use, if it shows you are greater than the maximum of 170, that rules...you rely on the scale...its pretty simple and universal...and yes, all commissions rely on the scale..what else are they going to rely on?


So you are saying that every AC in the world picks the precision for fighters weight based on how many decimal places the scale happens to go to? I think not. The ACs pick the precision they want to use and use a scale with that precision, or better. Why have we never seen a fighter that is 0.01 lbs over forced to cut more weight? 0.01 lb scales exist, an AC or two might even have them, but yet I've never seen it, have you? I have serious doubt about your premise.

you are looking at it the wrong way. its very simple.

 

Fighter A contracts with Fighter B for a bout at "170 pounds".

How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses.

If on that scale it shows that you weigh 170.1 lbs, you are over 170 and therefore have violated the contract. This is as basic as you can get.

Now, if there is a code or regulation that says that any decimals are rounded down - fine - that would supercede the contract and the fighters should be on notice of the commission's code or regulations. the problem is that in this case, there is no such code or regulation so you have to default back to the very simple and straightforward proposition that anything over 170 is a violation.


Wrong. If you are going to include anything in the decimals, this has to be in the contract. 170.0 means 170.0 170 means 170 and is open to some interpretation of how much you will allow in decimals to be over

lol..dude...are ytou trolling me?

 

tell me whey you have to include the decimals? on what basis? please explain to me.


When the UFC chose to host an event in Quebec, it was up to them to know how the athletic commission works. Once they were aware of how they interpret weight, they would have to stipulate in the contract that 170 means 170.0 and this would supercede interpretation

3/26/13 4:55 PM
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Do we even know if the scale they use even reads decimals?

I don't see how they changed the rules. The rules do not say they have to read to a certain decimal place. So what I understand is they expressed to Diaz they don't read decimals so as long as they are under 171 (because it won't read it) they are good.

Either way I don't for a second think they changed this for GSP to help him. Commisions make up rules not everyone agrees with. Some allow higher T:E ratios than others.

Lets be real here. The Diaz camp have made issues as much as possible surrounding this fight. From hand wraps to late flights (Gracie arranged the flights iirc) lots of issues that were unnecessary. Phone Post

If they have an off-the-record rule thta they dont count decimals, then presumably, yes, the scale reads decimals...or else why have that rule

and to your second point, if an agreement says that the max weight is 170..and you weigh in above 170, then yes, thats changing the rule

3/26/13 4:55 PM
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so a WW in a non-title fight can weigh in at 171.9?


yes, according to these guys yes. since decimals dont count.


maybe they favor fractions? 

 

Like GSP weighing in at 170.9 is not ok so they weighed him in at 170 9/10ths?

 

the commisions statement is basically 'Math? lol' 

3/26/13 4:55 PM
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I don't have a problem with hating the rule, just don't hate on GSP for knowing the rule as if he had some unfair advantage. Diaz had the same opportunity to come in at that weight
3/26/13 4:56 PM
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3/26/13 4:59 PM
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"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol


In short (with respect to fighter's weights) just because a scale reads 170.1 doesn't mean that the person weighs 170.1, they could weigh 170.0, 170.2 or they could be even greater amounts off depending on the precision and accuracy of the scale. This is why most ACs have a 1 pound tolerance for non-title fights. Personally, I think all fights should have the 1 pound allowance, just because it's a title fight doesn't mean the scale now works better.
I would imagine that Quebec's cutoff at the one pound mark is to reduce the chances of error in recording fighter's weights. If you measure and report to the nearest 0.1 pound their is significant uncertainty in that last decimal place, but if you you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound and report to the nearest pound, you reduce the uncertainty significantly.
3/26/13 5:03 PM
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"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol


In short (with respect to fighter's weights) just because a scale reads 170.1 doesn't mean that the person weighs 170.1, they could weigh 170.0, 170.2 or they could be even greater amounts off depending on the precision and accuracy of the scale. This is why most ACs have a 1 pound tolerance for non-title fights. Personally, I think all fights should have the 1 pound allowance, just because it's a title fight doesn't mean the scale now works better.
I would imagine that Quebec's cutoff at the one pound mark is to reduce the chances of error in recording fighter's weights. If you measure and report to the nearest 0.1 pound their is significant uncertainty in that last decimal place, but if you you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound and report to the nearest pound, you reduce the uncertainty significantly.

ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals...by your logic, we can throw out the single digit as well, since it may not be accurate...just let them weigh in anywhere between 170-179

 

and AGAIN...if the Quebec commission has a separate rule that allows for .9 lbs or disregards decimals....FINE...but you HAVE to have that in the code...you can't NOT mention it to a fighter (like they didnt mention it to condit) or tell a fighter AT the weighin (like they did to diaz)...THAT is horseshit..if you want to have an exception, put it in writing for all to see

3/26/13 5:11 PM
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Lol Phone Post
3/26/13 5:11 PM
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"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol


In short (with respect to fighter's weights) just because a scale reads 170.1 doesn't mean that the person weighs 170.1, they could weigh 170.0, 170.2 or they could be even greater amounts off depending on the precision and accuracy of the scale. This is why most ACs have a 1 pound tolerance for non-title fights. Personally, I think all fights should have the 1 pound allowance, just because it's a title fight doesn't mean the scale now works better.
I would imagine that Quebec's cutoff at the one pound mark is to reduce the chances of error in recording fighter's weights. If you measure and report to the nearest 0.1 pound their is significant uncertainty in that last decimal place, but if you you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound and report to the nearest pound, you reduce the uncertainty significantly.

ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals...by your logic, we can throw out the single digit as well, since it may not be accurate...just let them weigh in anywhere between 170-179

 

and AGAIN...if the Quebec commission has a separate rule that allows for .9 lbs or disregards decimals....FINE...but you HAVE to have that in the code...you can't NOT mention it to a fighter (like they didnt mention it to condit) or tell a fighter AT the weighin (like they did to diaz)...THAT is horseshit..if you want to have an exception, put it in writing for all to see


"ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals"

That's not how measuring devices work. The last decimal place is never certain, ever. The degree to which the uncertainty varies depends on the instrument (scale) and calibration. For any measured value there is always uncertainty. It is impossible to not have it. Here is some more reading on the subject, although it goes into much more detail than is probably needed here.

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Uncertainty/

If you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound (with a working and calibrated scale) than you have much more certainty reporting to the nearest pound.

If fighter X weighs in at 170.1 pound does he weight exactly 170.1 pound? No, of course not. But if you choose to report the value as 170 pounds now you have pretty good confidence that, to the nearest pound, the weight is 170.
3/26/13 5:13 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare
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Actually, this is probably more applicable here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_figures
3/26/13 5:19 PM
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ILoveWatchingJonesBoneShogun
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Curtis_E_Bare - 
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Curtis_E_Bare - 
Anderson's BBC in my Goku - 

"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol


In short (with respect to fighter's weights) just because a scale reads 170.1 doesn't mean that the person weighs 170.1, they could weigh 170.0, 170.2 or they could be even greater amounts off depending on the precision and accuracy of the scale. This is why most ACs have a 1 pound tolerance for non-title fights. Personally, I think all fights should have the 1 pound allowance, just because it's a title fight doesn't mean the scale now works better.
I would imagine that Quebec's cutoff at the one pound mark is to reduce the chances of error in recording fighter's weights. If you measure and report to the nearest 0.1 pound their is significant uncertainty in that last decimal place, but if you you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound and report to the nearest pound, you reduce the uncertainty significantly.

ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals...by your logic, we can throw out the single digit as well, since it may not be accurate...just let them weigh in anywhere between 170-179

 

and AGAIN...if the Quebec commission has a separate rule that allows for .9 lbs or disregards decimals....FINE...but you HAVE to have that in the code...you can't NOT mention it to a fighter (like they didnt mention it to condit) or tell a fighter AT the weighin (like they did to diaz)...THAT is horseshit..if you want to have an exception, put it in writing for all to see


"ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals"

That's not how measuring devices work. The last decimal place is never certain, ever. The degree to which the uncertainty varies depends on the instrument (scale) and calibration. For any measured value there is always uncertainty. It is impossible to not have it. Here is some more reading on the subject, although it goes into much more detail than is probably needed here.

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Uncertainty/

If you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound (with a working and calibrated scale) than you have much more certainty reporting to the nearest pound.

If fighter X weighs in at 170.1 pound does he weight exactly 170.1 pound? No, of course not. But if you choose to report the value as 170 pounds now you have pretty good confidence that, to the nearest pound, the weight is 170.

yup, this is to prevent a fighter thinking he made weight because on 1 scale that is calibrated, he weights 170.0 and the official scale he might weigh 170.1 or 170.2.

3/26/13 5:25 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare - 
Anderson's BBC in my Goku - 
Curtis_E_Bare - 
Anderson's BBC in my Goku - 

"How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever scale the commission uses."

Except that it's:
How do they determine the weight of the fighters? By whatever method the commission uses.

You seem to not have a very good understanding of metrology."

 

1st of all. i pretty clearly stated that if the commision has a specific rule, then that would supercede.show me the rule. show it to me.

 

second, yes, I have no clue what metrology is. so?lol


In short (with respect to fighter's weights) just because a scale reads 170.1 doesn't mean that the person weighs 170.1, they could weigh 170.0, 170.2 or they could be even greater amounts off depending on the precision and accuracy of the scale. This is why most ACs have a 1 pound tolerance for non-title fights. Personally, I think all fights should have the 1 pound allowance, just because it's a title fight doesn't mean the scale now works better.
I would imagine that Quebec's cutoff at the one pound mark is to reduce the chances of error in recording fighter's weights. If you measure and report to the nearest 0.1 pound their is significant uncertainty in that last decimal place, but if you you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound and report to the nearest pound, you reduce the uncertainty significantly.

ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals...by your logic, we can throw out the single digit as well, since it may not be accurate...just let them weigh in anywhere between 170-179

 

and AGAIN...if the Quebec commission has a separate rule that allows for .9 lbs or disregards decimals....FINE...but you HAVE to have that in the code...you can't NOT mention it to a fighter (like they didnt mention it to condit) or tell a fighter AT the weighin (like they did to diaz)...THAT is horseshit..if you want to have an exception, put it in writing for all to see


"ummm if they are using a scale that goes to decimals, they should be able to rely on those decimals"

That's not how measuring devices work. The last decimal place is never certain, ever. The degree to which the uncertainty varies depends on the instrument (scale) and calibration. For any measured value there is always uncertainty. It is impossible to not have it. Here is some more reading on the subject, although it goes into much more detail than is probably needed here.

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Uncertainty/

If you measure to the nearest 0.1 pound (with a working and calibrated scale) than you have much more certainty reporting to the nearest pound.

If fighter X weighs in at 170.1 pound does he weight exactly 170.1 pound? No, of course not. But if you choose to report the value as 170 pounds now you have pretty good confidence that, to the nearest pound, the weight is 170.

1) i clicked that link but didnt see this universal law that says the last decimal place on the scale is never reliable. please show me the rule

2) are you positive the scales used by the athletic commission only goes to one decimal?

3) even if we were to assume that the decimal point is unreliable to the point it should be thrown out, shouldnt u at least round up 170.9 to 171? or is the last decimal unreliable with a bias towards going over the actual weight of whatever is being measured?

3/26/13 5:27 PM
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Curtis_E_Bare - Actually, this is probably more applicable here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_figures

k...where does it say you should disregard the last digit of any scale because its unreliable?


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