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UnderGround Forums >> Study shows decrease in brain size after 5 years


3/26/13 6:05 PM
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TheGoldenRule
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Must've used a diaz in the study Phone Post
3/26/13 6:06 PM
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PirateJax
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I am curious what their health controls will end up being. One could argue that these differences, even if they were longitudinal, are the result of lifestyle rather than head trauma(Not saying this is the case, but for arguments sake...). They need a control group that represents a similar level of athletic dedication and fear-conquering, minus the head trauma. Sport BJJ competitors would make a good control I think, and if you added just runners or something you could see if getting choked out also has any long lasting effects on the brain.

Also it should be relatively easy to correlate number of KO's to any regional changes in brain volume.

3/26/13 6:07 PM
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irishrottie
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Freeman - 

Ban fighting?


nope, just learn from the results. too many guys train poorly and fight for too long. more information/facts that are out there the better.

3/26/13 6:15 PM
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David Mortensen
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PirateJax - I am curious what their health controls will end up being. One could argue that these differences, even if they were longitudinal, are the result of lifestyle rather than head trauma(Not saying this is the case, but for arguments sake...). They need a control group that represents a similar level of athletic dedication and fear-conquering, minus the head trauma. Sport BJJ competitors would make a good control I think, and if you added just runners or something you could see if getting choked out also has any long lasting effects on the brain.

Also it should be relatively easy to correlate number of KO's to any regional changes in brain volume.


I thought the same thing about chokes, not to mention throws or the inadvertant hits you take from your rolling partner or someone rolling near you.  While I highly doubt the trauma would be equivalent with blunt force head trauma like in boxing/mma, depriving the brain of oxygen could potentially affect the development and maintenance of the brain.  I would assume that the brain would direct blood and oxygen toward mission critical functions immediately and wait for the ancillary functions (critical thinking type stuff) until it had recovered. 

I've been choked unconcious before and when i woke up i immediately started trying to grapple my partner, but i recall not knowing where i was, what happened, what i was doing etc.  Very similar to being concussed.  It passed withing a few seconds, but I have to think that repeating this would not be good for my health.

3/26/13 6:17 PM
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David Mortensen
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irishrottie - 
Freeman - 

Ban fighting?


nope, just learn from the results. too many guys train poorly and fight for too long. more information/facts that are out there the better.


I'm with you.

I think fighters don't understand the risks, and I almost certainly think that the rewards are not enough to justify them for most of the guys.  Making 10/10 twice a year for a chance to get severe brain damage?  Probably not worth it to most people

3/26/13 7:27 PM
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Leghound
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Kirik - 
smoogy - Head trauma is head trauma. If the correlations were consistent for both boxers and MMA fighters, it's perfectly rational to group them together.

Has anyone show a correlation to date?

Given the the average ammy in MMA turns pro after 10 fights, and the average boxer after 50-100, and that a KO is the main goal of prizefighting while MMA has control and subs too, and that guys in MMA don't take nearly the head pounding in training that boxers do and training is where I think most of the damage happens, then I would be stunned if there was no difference.


On the other hand, boxers don't take kicks to the head.

or elbows which can result in comparable power to a fist but sharper and harder.

You don't take a ton of kicks to the head or elbows in MMA training either.

3/26/13 7:35 PM
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smoogy
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Are there any studies on the effects of having the carotid arteries crushed closed hundreds of times over the span of an MMA career?

I used to sort of buy into the idea that MMA is a "safer" combat sport compared to boxing. I don't think that argument has much of a leg to stand on these days though. The KO rate in MMA is severe beyond belief. Compared to boxing, it seems like many more MMA fighters are getting knocked completely unconscious per capita.
3/26/13 8:00 PM
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xDOMINANTGENEx
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Santino DeFranco - Is that why I forget things?
I went to southwest mma for a spell so I know what santino is saying. Always forgot my name.
I kid, I kid. Phone Post
3/26/13 8:10 PM
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kungfugrip
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Fighting bad

football bad

hockey bad

basketball gay

3/26/13 8:18 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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JUST BLEED
3/26/13 8:20 PM
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Malvert the Janitor
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Kirik -
smoogy - Head trauma is head trauma. If the correlations were consistent for both boxers and MMA fighters, it's perfectly rational to group them together.

Has anyone show a correlation to date?

Given the the average ammy in MMA turns pro after 10 fights, and the average boxer after 50-100, and that a KO is the main goal of prizefighting while MMA has control and subs too, and that guys in MMA don't take nearly the head pounding in training that boxers do and training is where I think most of the damage happens, then I would be stunned if there was no difference.

Holy run-on! Phone Post
3/26/13 8:30 PM
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Donoghue88
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If i'm reading this correctly she said there was A 10% reduction for 15 years of fighting. I'll take that over working in a bank and sucking dick.

Honestly, We know It causes problems, whether short or long term, but i doubt Mohammed Ali regrets boxing.
3/26/13 8:31 PM
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Public got Bigg Riggd
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jiujitsufigher7 - This is why I don't believe Jon Jones or Vitor Belfort are christians. You can't be a christian and beat somebody up causing them brain damage, or risk yourself taking a beating and brain damage to yourself. The body is the temple of the holy spirit. You don't destroy your body or your opponent's body. The fact that Vitor Belfort and Jon Jones don't even admit fighting another human being for money is the equivalent of prostituting your body goes to prove neither of these fighters is a christian. Don't get me wrong we all sin, and fall short of the glory of God. There will be prostitutes in heaven for sure, but the ones that are going to be in heaven are those that have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus Christ, and this starts by recognizing prostitution (or fighting for money) is a sinful act. I've never heard Johnny Bones Jones or Vitor Belfort say anything about fihgting being highly sinful and an abomination to in God's eyes. So both fighters haven't repented of their sin. I'm not picking on Jones and Belfort, I'm sure there are many other fighters that claim to be christian that are not, however these two are the most well known hypocrites that claim to be christian.
Who are you to say who they are. You can be Christians and fight. Phone Post
3/26/13 9:17 PM
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jaytrainwreck
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jiujitsufigher7 - This is why I don't believe Jon Jones or Vitor Belfort are christians. You can't be a christian and beat somebody up causing them brain damage, or risk yourself taking a beating and brain damage to yourself. The body is the temple of the holy spirit. You don't destroy your body or your opponent's body. The fact that Vitor Belfort and Jon Jones don't even admit fighting another human being for money is the equivalent of prostituting your body goes to prove neither of these fighters is a christian. Don't get me wrong we all sin, and fall short of the glory of God. There will be prostitutes in heaven for sure, but the ones that are going to be in heaven are those that have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus Christ, and this starts by recognizing prostitution (or fighting for money) is a sinful act. I've never heard Johnny Bones Jones or Vitor Belfort say anything about fihgting being highly sinful and an abomination to in God's eyes. So both fighters haven't repented of their sin. I'm not picking on Jones and Belfort, I'm sure there are many other fighters that claim to be christian that are not, however these two are the most well known hypocrites that claim to be christian.
Illogical Phone Post
3/26/13 9:37 PM
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MdGeist
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smoogy - Are there any studies on the effects of having the carotid arteries crushed closed hundreds of times over the span of an MMA career?

I used to sort of buy into the idea that MMA is a "safer" combat sport compared to boxing. I don't think that argument has much of a leg to stand on these days though. The KO rate in MMA is severe beyond belief. Compared to boxing, it seems like many more MMA fighters are getting knocked completely unconscious per capita.

I agree.

For the sake of the future success of mma and to counter the "human cock-fighting" stigma that mma had in the 90s, theres been this myth thats been widely accepted that mma is safer than boxing.

I always though the myth was kind of bullshit especially when you compare your average UFC card to a PPV boxing and its abudantly clear that high-level boxers are fighting very conservatively these days and aren't taking nearly the same level of damage that guys at the upper-levels of mma are.

3/26/13 10:06 PM
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David Mortensen
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WhoRunsBarterTown - 
David Mortensen - 
PirateJax - I am curious what their health controls will end up being. One could argue that these differences, even if they were longitudinal, are the result of lifestyle rather than head trauma(Not saying this is the case, but for arguments sake...). They need a control group that represents a similar level of athletic dedication and fear-conquering, minus the head trauma. Sport BJJ competitors would make a good control I think, and if you added just runners or something you could see if getting choked out also has any long lasting effects on the brain.

Also it should be relatively easy to correlate number of KO's to any regional changes in brain volume.


I thought the same thing about chokes, not to mention throws or the inadvertant hits you take from your rolling partner or someone rolling near you.  While I highly doubt the trauma would be equivalent with blunt force head trauma like in boxing/mma, depriving the brain of oxygen could potentially affect the development and maintenance of the brain.  I would assume that the brain would direct blood and oxygen toward mission critical functions immediately and wait for the ancillary functions (critical thinking type stuff) until it had recovered. 

I've been choked unconcious before and when i woke up i immediately started trying to grapple my partner, but i recall not knowing where i was, what happened, what i was doing etc.  Very similar to being concussed.  It passed withing a few seconds, but I have to think that repeating this would not be good for my health.


Yeah but how often does that happen? I've been doing bjj for 10 years and I've never been choked unconscious. Tapping; it's a good idea.

when i get caught in certain gi chokes in particular (at least for me), i feel fine, like i can get out and am not in trouble, and then next thing i know im fading to black.  doesnt happen often, but it happens to at least one guy per month when im there.

3/26/13 10:12 PM
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whoabro
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smoogy - Head trauma is head trauma. If the correlations were consistent for both boxers and MMA fighters, it's perfectly rational to group them together.
This Phone Post
3/26/13 10:14 PM
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whoabro
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Epa - If people are really interested Someone should e-mail the authors and ask if they compared outcomes between boxers and mma fighters. If you read the article they presented background data on the two groups. Specifically, "Mean educational level was about 13 years, with MMA fighters having about one more year of education on average than the boxers."

This means that they have the data on type of fighter. If it's already in their data set, it would take them no time to generate results for each group. Even if it's not in the final dataset, it wouldn't be that hard to add it in assuming they saved it. There is an incentive for the researchers here because if they have interesting findings they may be able to squeeze a separate paper out of the same study.

Ideally, someone who's knowledgeable about MMA in the Vegas area could contact them and offer to sit down with them and educate them about the sport. This way their research is more likely to be grounded in the realities of training in the sport and not something they saw on the nightly news.

Based on one statement in the paper, I'm assuming that the authors don't know a lot about MMA. Specifically, "Among 104 boxers and 135 mixed-martial arts (MMA) competitors -- many of them "cage fighters" --."
Excellent post Phone Post
3/26/13 10:32 PM
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t G G t
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whoabro -
smoogy - Head trauma is head trauma. If the correlations were consistent for both boxers and MMA fighters, it's perfectly rational to group them together.
This Phone Post
Yeah this.

MMA fans have to accept that there are negative effects of two people beating the fuck out of each other.

It's a crazy sport we all love, but stop with the deluded ideas that it's safer than sport a, b or c. This study had some science behind it, but still, the pseudo intellectual arguments come out---'ah well mmartists don't get hit as much'... All blows to the skull are bad arright?. Phone Post
3/26/13 11:22 PM
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jiujitsufigher7
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john joe - 
jiujitsufigher7 - This is why I don't believe Jon Jones or Vitor Belfort are christians. You can't be a christian and beat somebody up causing them brain damage, or risk yourself taking a beating and brain damage to yourself. The body is the temple of the holy spirit. You don't destroy your body or your opponent's body. The fact that Vitor Belfort and Jon Jones don't even admit fighting another human being for money is the equivalent of prostituting your body goes to prove neither of these fighters is a christian. Don't get me wrong we all sin, and fall short of the glory of God. There will be prostitutes in heaven for sure, but the ones that are going to be in heaven are those that have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus Christ, and this starts by recognizing prostitution (or fighting for money) is a sinful act. I've never heard Johnny Bones Jones or Vitor Belfort say anything about fihgting being highly sinful and an abomination to in God's eyes. So both fighters haven't repented of their sin. I'm not picking on Jones and Belfort, I'm sure there are many other fighters that claim to be christian that are not, however these two are the most well known hypocrites that claim to be christian.

i dont believe in god or a single word of the bible etc, i think it is all absolutely ridiculous

but anyone who professes to, yeah, they dont seem like they should be elbowing their fellow man in the face.
"I'm giving glory to christ by my skills" - yeah the prince of peace loves MMA

You hit it on the nail. I am a christian and as you say you are not, I am glad though that one thing we both agree is that Jones and Belfort are hypocrites. And using the name of Christ to beat somebody unconscious are hypocrites, they are making a false profession of faith, and equalling christianity with giving brain damage to a fellow human being that God created in his image.
3/26/13 11:50 PM
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Akston
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And football Phone Post
3/27/13 12:10 AM
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KevinMcAllister
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Getting hit in the head repeatedly will causes damage in the long run, be it MMA, boxing, football, hockey, anything. Guys in soccer have shown brain damage due to the amount of headers they do.

Which one is "safer" is irrelevant, they all can lead to the same outcome.

That said, these are grown men, and they know the risks. Morecraft and Konrad got out early, they have a choice. Nobody forces them to fight. Also in a few years we will see the effects of guys who got out late. Phone Post
3/27/13 1:44 AM
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Colboyo
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KevinMcAllister -  Getting hit in the head repeatedly will causes damage in the long run, be it MMA, boxing, football, hockey, anything. Guys in soccer have shown brain damage due to the amount of headers they do.

Which one is "safer" is irrelevant, they all can lead to the same outcome.

That said, these are grown men, and they know the risks. Morecraft and Konrad got out early, they have a choice. Nobody forces them to fight. Also in a few years we will see the effects of guys who got out late. Phone Post

I agree.
3/27/13 3:39 AM
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TzTinkle
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KevinMcAllister -  Getting hit in the head repeatedly will causes damage in the long run, be it MMA, boxing, football, hockey, anything. Guys in soccer have shown brain damage due to the amount of headers they do.

Which one is "safer" is irrelevant, they all can lead to the same outcome.

That said, these are grown men, and they know the risks. Morecraft and Konrad got out early, they have a choice. Nobody forces them to fight. Also in a few years we will see the effects of guys who got out late. Phone Post

Listen to wand now...he has that punchy low voice like james toney. MMA can be safer depending on how you train, think about hammer house vs chute boxe. The majority of damage is done in the gym not the ring.
3/27/13 3:48 AM
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fightharder
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smoogy - Head trauma is head trauma. If the correlations were consistent for both boxers and MMA fighters, it's perfectly rational to group them together.
From a scientic point of view, no. They are in a similar category but they are big difference in terms on damage taken, impact, duration of inpact etc etc. These are all thing that would influence the results tremendously.

I think the results are scary but predictable. I am actually a little suprised the the results would not be even worse then this. Phone Post

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