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UnderGround Forums >> UFC knew the .9 allowance for GSP was illegal


3/30/13 2:50 PM
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Chiron
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lastcall - I have no doubt the shorts GSP kept on weighed more than .9 lbs. Calm down
End if thread Phone Post 3.0

Actually, I think there was another thread that claimed those fight shorts weighed .2 or .3 pounds.

In any case, has it ever been demonstrated that GSP did NOT weight in at 170?

It seems like all the talk is about making up this allowance (which is bullshit), but I haven't actually seen whether or not GSP conclusively weighed in over the limit.

He jumped on the scale and the commission clearly stated he made weight. I don't understand what the issue is.

They stated he weighed 170 but considering they were dropping the decimal that means he weighed anywhere within 170-170.9. According to mmafighting their scale is accurate to within 100 grams. Do you really think the odds are that he weighed within 100 grams of 170 lbs? It's far more likely he weighed over that but under 171. Of course, we could take the weight of his shorts into account which probably would make the difference if he was around 170.4 or less.

The AC in Montreal has counted the decimal on plenty of occasions. They counted it at the events the mmafighting article stating. They also counted it at UFC 83 when the UFC gave GSP the rematch with Serra in Montreal. Both fighters were announced to weigh 169.5 When GSP fought at TKO 19 in Montreal they announced his weight at 169.8.

The issue though is that the AC and/or the UFC seem to have been trying to favor one fighter. Condit was never told about this "off the record" rule and Diaz wasn't told until the last minute despite the UFC having had at least 3 previous events in Montreal. Either the UFC or the AC is showing incompetence, if not outright corruption, which is favoring the big money fighter here. Regardless of who the fighters are, this is a legitimate issue.

Anyone who thinks something like cutting Fitch was bad should be even more critical of these sorts of things because these not only determine who is competing, but possibly deliberately favoring one fighter over the other which does more to delegitimize a sport org than anything else.

3/30/13 2:52 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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my gawd this shill Orcus:

"I don't see a quote denying he had a conversation with Nick. "

How can you actually say this and expect people to take anything you say seriously????

 

He is directly asked about his conversation with them, and says "I don't know what you're talking about" more than once...

 

You're a fucking joke. I hope they pay you well to look like such an idiot.

 

3/30/13 2:52 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

" If there was nothing at all suspect or shady about what MM told the Diaz camp, why did he LIE and flat out deny that he even had the conversation at all???"

I don't see a quote denying he had a conversation with Nick. In any case, like I said, it makes absolutely no difference. 

It is a FACT that rounding down the weight is not against ANY rule in ANY AC in the world that I -- or you -- are aware of. 

It's sad that you idiots are so desperately attached to your hilariously ignorant initial belief that a major rule was being broken to protect GSP, that even once you are repeatedly proven wrong, you just keep on going, with all you have left being that a UFC rep acted funny. Maybe you can go to a judge and say he acted funny so the fight should be overturned or Nick should get 20% of GSP's purse or something? I don't know, good luck with that.

"also, show your proof that most ACs round .9 down....ill wait..."

Show me where I said most ACs round .9 down. But since most ACs round down, most would thefore "round .9 down" -- to .5 -- while some would round it all the way down to the whole pound.


you are obviously trying to lump quebec with all these other commissions, but the reality is that they have a very different practice when it comes to weighins...why dont you just admit this?

3/30/13 2:52 PM
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Chiron
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Hired Gun - Rules are there to protect fighters. If this is true that fight should be ruled a no-contest.

lol

Which rule was broken?


There was DEFINITELY a rule broken....the rule against hitting blatantly after the bell. These MMA Purists that are totally not just blindly crying on behalf of Diaz don't seem to want to discuss that though.

That was terrible too. But it seems to have been the case of a timekeeper being bad at his job. I'd be fine if they called it a NC. But that's likely not something deliberate as the weight incident may have been.
3/30/13 2:57 PM
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orcus
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"The AC in Montreal has counted the decimal on plenty of occasions."

So? They didn't for the previous UFC or two of the UFCs before that. And the other two they still rounded, but to the half rather than the whole.

"The issue though is that the AC and/or the UFC seem to have been trying to favor one fighter."

How do you figure?

" Condit was never told about this "off the record" rule and Diaz wasn't told until the last minute despite the UFC having had at least 3 previous events in Montreal."

Why on earth do you think GSP was told before Diaz, or was told for the Condit fight? Firahz said they were told that day of the weighins like Nick was. 

Believe it or not, it's in the UFC's best interests to have BOTH fighters in a title fight -- or ANY fight -- make weight. And I doubt they -- or anyone -- believe for one second that the difference between GSP winning and losing is EVER going to be "being allowed" to cut a half pound less than his opponent, to the point they will risk all of their credibility (if not their business by criminal fraud or something) by telling GSP and not his opponents -- all so he can have a half pound advantage going into a fight. 

3/30/13 2:58 PM
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Lazer MMA
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I was already sourced this was not the uniform standard they used (Op). On the contrary.
3/30/13 2:59 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Then why lie RFLAG?

That is shady in and of itself!

The answer? The truth was even more shady.

I don't know, I don't know that guy, have never heard of him, don't know his position, and don't know if it's within his boundaries to get involved in that.  I have said multiple times that it shocks me that the UFC doesn't make all fighters aware of the a commission's rules.  But since Dana, Joe Silva, Fertita, etc.. clearly don't tell these fighters how the weigh ins work, maybe he felt he could get in trouble telling them?

You guys do know what "off the record" means, right?  It's baffling to me that you all seem surprised that a guy would say something is off the record and then deny it.  It's like you've never heard the term before.



So when he admitted there was a .9 LBS allowance on tape he said "off the record"?

You think that holds weight? LOL

No idea if it holds weight.  As I've already told you, never heard of him, don't know who he is, and don't know what he does.  Why you laughing?


Maybe you should look into it.

 

When he was hired by the UFC in 2007 he was brought in as the Cheif Operating Officer, he is now the Senior Vice President....of Zuffa LLC. Pretty sure what he says holds some weight. The fact that someone THAT high up at Zuffa would be responding in those texts in that childish and decieving of a way is comical.

3/30/13 3:00 PM
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orcus
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"you are obviously trying to lump quebec with all these other commissions, but the reality is that they have a very different practice when it comes to weighins...why dont you just admit this?"

Rounding to whole pounds rather than to half pounds is not a "very different practice". Every complaint about this has been that "for a title fight you can't be over, period". Are you saying the outrage is now "ok, you can be over by .4, but not by .6, that's outrageous!!!"? Get real. Why don't you just admit that's fucking retarded and not actually the way you feel -- that you're just trolling?

3/30/13 3:00 PM
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SQUEEZIE
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For the love of god, tell me the "secret rule".

Is it that they were going to round to the whole? Well, that's neither a "rule", nor "secret", since they did it at the previous event and 2 of the events before that. So please stop calling it a "secret rule".


But they didn't do it at other UFC events. They also didn't do it at an MMA event only months ago.

 

The fact that NO OTHER FIGHTER has come out and said they knew this existed, and numerous UFC fighters specifically said they were NEVER told about this, I can call it a "secret rule" if I want, thanks mom.


legal or not,secret or not,fair or not.it doesn't even matter.but to anyone with some morals and common sense it seems super shady.
both by commission,ufc and anyone who competed there knowing this with out their opposition knowing about the same amount of time as they did.
3/30/13 3:00 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Osbot - All you Nick Diaz fans are a disgrace.

What happened to GSP is shook? What happened to Diaz' BUDO?

What happened to Diaz giving less than zero fucks and just fucking people up regardless? Now you want him to get his win on a technicality?

You cry babies need to check yourselves. Diaz has fans for his no-nonsense demeanor and his insistence of getting in there and fighting FOR REAL. That his fans are crying trying to get this fight over turned over something that didn't happen, based on a fucking technicality is shameful. It disrespects Diaz and everything that he stands for.

I want to give Nick Diaz big up's for being a fucking manly man and taking his loss on the chin. Making no excuses and calling out his next goat, Anderson Silva who matches up more favorably.

Good luck Nick, I hope you get that fight, should be a thriller!


its not his fans and nobody said for the fight to be over turned If so show me those posts I havent seen any.Im a GSP fan not Diaz but Id like the sport to be clean
3/30/13 3:01 PM
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Winston Wolf
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onathan Tweedale, Nick Diaz's lawyer, contacted Bloody Elbow and exclusively provided very interesting text message transcripts from the evening of the weigh in, explaining "Given some of the media coverage, we need to set the record straight on the timing that the issue of the 0.9 was raised by Nick Diaz. The issue was pursued immediately. On the evening of March 15, Mike Mersch and I exchanged the following correspondence (via text message), in which he denied any knowledge of a .9 allowance or ignoring the decimal."

Mersch, again, was the man in the video who informed the camp of the "no decimal" changes.

Here is the text conversation between Tweedale (JDT) and Mersch (MM), which starts at 9:24 p.m.:

JDT: "Hi Mike. Nick is curious about the .9 pound allowance at today's weigh-in for his championship bout. He doesn't want to be a nuisance about this, but he's a bit confused. Can you shed any light?"

MM: "I don't know what you're talking about. All parties weighed in appropriately according [to] the Quebec Commission."

JDT: "Of course. You're right, and he knows that. He just wanted to know why the Quebec Commission was okay with a 0.9 pound weight allowance for a championship fight. Nick's not going to make an issue of it, but it's been gnawing at him since it was explained to him at the weigh-ins, on an "off the record" basis or otherwise. I just want him to stop thinking about it, and thought you could provide some insight."

MM: "I have been told everyone made weight so there's nothing to make an issue about. He might want to focus on how he's going to win the fight rather than spending the night making excuses about why he lost."

The correspondence continued at 9:46 p.m.:

JDT: "C'mon Mike you're just going to stonewall on this issue? We're reaching out in a discreet manner, as appropriate in the circumstances. Meet us half-way."

MM: "Huh? The Commission determined both fighters weighed 170 or less. What am I supposed to do about that? I would think Nick would be excited to compete for the UFC Welterweight title. Seems like he's focused on the wrong issue."

JDT: "No one wants you to *do* anything. If the answer is simply "the Quebec Commission permits a promoter to request that .9 pounds be rounded down in a championship fight (unlike, e.g., the Washington commission for Nate's fight), and Zuffa made that request here", then pls confirm. Far better to reach out this way than the uncooperative Twitter/media way."

MM: "How would I know what the Quebec Commission does? I was informed everyone made weight like everyone else at the weigh in. Zuffa made no requests for anything from the Quebec Commission. Good luck to Nick with the fight."

JDT: "Okay. I'll let Nick know that you can't shed any light on why Quebec treats 170.9 as 170 in a championship fight. Disappointing. Thanks for your time and your wish of luck to Nick for the fight."

MM: "Again I have no idea what you're talking about. The Quebec Commission indicated both fighters were 170 or lower."

JDT: "If you don't know then I should be asking someone else. No worries, Mike. Which UFC exec advised Nick and his entourage before the weigh-in that "If you're 170.2, you're 170. If you're 170.9, you're 170...that's a kinda off the record type of thing"?"

MM: "I would think you'd direct that to the source: the Quebec Commission. The UFC has nothing to do with weigh ins in Quebec."

Tweedale explained, "We appreciate that Mr. Mersch was in a difficult position, evidently having been instructed by the Quebec Commission to relay to Mr. Diaz some last-minute, unlawful 'rule changes' to give the hometown fighter a reprieve from his duty to make weight at 170 pounds.

read entire article...
3/30/13 3:01 PM
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orcus
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"The fact that someone THAT high up at Zuffa would be responding in those texts in that childish and decieving of a way is comical."

What's comical is that you are so feverishly determined to find some outrage over this that even once you are forced to see that no rules were broken, you still cling to the tone of the UFC guy's texts to Nick's douchebag lawyer.

Perhaps you should be making threads demanding a Code of Professionalism in Communications for UFC Representatives, since that seems to be your issue now.

3/30/13 3:01 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Anyone with some morals and common sense KNOWS it's shady.

Fixed
3/30/13 3:02 PM
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orcus
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"both by commission,ufc and anyone who competed there knowing this with out their opposition knowing about the same amount of time as they did."

Luckily for you we have absolutely no reason to believe GSP had more advance warning than Nick did, and in fact a statement from Firaz that he was told that same day before weighins just like Nick.

3/30/13 3:03 PM
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Masakyst
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Edited: 03/30/13 3:04 PM
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Orcus is making way too much sense in this thread, presenting information logically and firmly, using historical reference and facts. The others are ignoring the evidence, insulting him, and letting their emotions rule.

"Something is wrong here, I don't know what it is and there is no proof of any wrongdoing, but it just feels that way god damn it!"

Thank goodness you guys don't work in law enforcement.
3/30/13 3:04 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

"you are obviously trying to lump quebec with all these other commissions, but the reality is that they have a very different practice when it comes to weighins...why dont you just admit this?"

Rounding to whole pounds rather than to half pounds is not a "very different practice". Every complaint about this has been that "for a title fight you can't be over, period". Are you saying the outrage is now "ok, you can be over by .4, but not by .6, that's outrageous!!!"? Get real. Why don't you just admit that's fucking retarded and not actually the way you feel -- that you're just trolling?


it is a very different practice...if you weigh 170.5 in quebec (depending on the event apparently), then you make weight, but not so in other jurisdictions including nevada..if you dont make weight you have to give up a significant part of your purse and the fight potentially can be called off...that is a significant difference no matter how you try to spin it

and you are trying soooo hard to dismiss the fact that quebec doesnt even always drop the decimal...that IS A BIG DEAL DUMMY...its an off  the record rule, applied by the same commission, with the same written rules, in an inconsistent manner...even if we were to assume its ok that an off the record rule exists (which its not), at the VERY MINIMUM, they need to apply the same off the record rule to each event under their jurisdiction under their rules...ask yourself this...what is the rational basisand genesis for deviation from their own off the record rule? explain it to me

3/30/13 3:13 PM
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Winston Wolf
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anything over 170.0 is not acceptable to me for a title fight and no matter how u slice it 170.9 rounds off to 171 .The dude telling this to Diaz an hour before weigh in was shady
3/30/13 3:14 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

"you are obviously trying to lump quebec with all these other commissions, but the reality is that they have a very different practice when it comes to weighins...why dont you just admit this?"

Rounding to whole pounds rather than to half pounds is not a "very different practice". Every complaint about this has been that "for a title fight you can't be over, period". Are you saying the outrage is now "ok, you can be over by .4, but not by .6, that's outrageous!!!"? Get real. Why don't you just admit that's fucking retarded and not actually the way you feel -- that you're just trolling?


it is a very different practice...if you weigh 170.5 in quebec (depending on the event apparently), then you make weight, but not so in other jurisdictions including nevada..if you dont make weight you have to give up a significant part of your purse and the fight potentially can be called off...that is a significant difference no matter how you try to spin it

and you are trying soooo hard to dismiss the fact that quebec doesnt even always drop the decimal...that IS A BIG DEAL DUMMY...its an off  the record rule, applied by the same commission, with the same written rules, in an inconsistent manner...even if we were to assume its ok that an off the record rule exists (which its not), at the VERY MINIMUM, they need to apply the same off the record rule to each event under their jurisdiction under their rules...ask yourself this...what is the rational basisand genesis for deviation from their own off the record rule? explain it to me


So once again, Goku wants to set the tolerance limits for the entire world.  He seems to be OK with the fact you can make 170 in Nevada if you weigh 170.4, however is dumfounded that 170.5 is allowed in Quebec.  He's OK with 170.4 in Nevada despite the fact that 170.1 is considered over in California.  All of you idiots like him are funny who think 170.1 is an outrage because it's greater than 170.0 yet fully accept 170.04 even though that is also greater than 170.0.

Make up your minds.


i am not setting the limit dummy..im just saying the quebec commission has a different practice than most other jurisdictions...orcus is repeatedly trying to deflect any sense of irregularity by saying they have the same practice as every other commission...thats not true..there is a difference in substance between the way the quebec commission handles weigh ins and the way other jurisdictions handle weigh ins...

again, im not assigning any value on whether or not weights should be rounded as a good or bad thing...the points isnt that being .9 is so much worse than being .1 over..i never said that and i dont think its even true...the only issue is if they want to set some standard, they need to put it in the rule book so there is certainty that 1) the people that are governed by such rules (ie the fighters) are on notice of the rule and 2) the rule is applied consistently...that is the issue...do you get it now?

3/30/13 3:15 PM
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Winston Wolf
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onathan Tweedale, Nick Diaz's lawyer, contacted Bloody Elbow and exclusively provided very interesting text message transcripts from the evening of the weigh in, explaining "Given some of the media coverage, we need to set the record straight on the timing that the issue of the 0.9 was raised by Nick Diaz. The issue was pursued immediately. On the evening of March 15, Mike Mersch and I exchanged the following correspondence (via text message), in which he denied any knowledge of a .9 allowance or ignoring the decimal."

Mersch, again, was the man in the video who informed the camp of the "no decimal" changes.

Here is the text conversation between Tweedale (JDT) and Mersch (MM), which starts at 9:24 p.m.:

JDT: "Hi Mike. Nick is curious about the .9 pound allowance at today's weigh-in for his championship bout. He doesn't want to be a nuisance about this, but he's a bit confused. Can you shed any light?"

MM: "I don't know what you're talking about. All parties weighed in appropriately according [to] the Quebec Commission."

JDT: "Of course. You're right, and he knows that. He just wanted to know why the Quebec Commission was okay with a 0.9 pound weight allowance for a championship fight. Nick's not going to make an issue of it, but it's been gnawing at him since it was explained to him at the weigh-ins, on an "off the record" basis or otherwise. I just want him to stop thinking about it, and thought you could provide some insight."

MM: "I have been told everyone made weight so there's nothing to make an issue about. He might want to focus on how he's going to win the fight rather than spending the night making excuses about why he lost."

The correspondence continued at 9:46 p.m.:

JDT: "C'mon Mike you're just going to stonewall on this issue? We're reaching out in a discreet manner, as appropriate in the circumstances. Meet us half-way."

MM: "Huh? The Commission determined both fighters weighed 170 or less. What am I supposed to do about that? I would think Nick would be excited to compete for the UFC Welterweight title. Seems like he's focused on the wrong issue."

JDT: "No one wants you to *do* anything. If the answer is simply "the Quebec Commission permits a promoter to request that .9 pounds be rounded down in a championship fight (unlike, e.g., the Washington commission for Nate's fight), and Zuffa made that request here", then pls confirm. Far better to reach out this way than the uncooperative Twitter/media way."

MM: "How would I know what the Quebec Commission does? I was informed everyone made weight like everyone else at the weigh in. Zuffa made no requests for anything from the Quebec Commission. Good luck to Nick with the fight."

JDT: "Okay. I'll let Nick know that you can't shed any light on why Quebec treats 170.9 as 170 in a championship fight. Disappointing. Thanks for your time and your wish of luck to Nick for the fight."

MM: "Again I have no idea what you're talking about. The Quebec Commission indicated both fighters were 170 or lower."

JDT: "If you don't know then I should be asking someone else. No worries, Mike. Which UFC exec advised Nick and his entourage before the weigh-in that "If you're 170.2, you're 170. If you're 170.9, you're 170...that's a kinda off the record type of thing"?"

MM: "I would think you'd direct that to the source: the Quebec Commission. The UFC has nothing to do with weigh ins in Quebec."

Tweedale explained, "We appreciate that Mr. Mersch was in a difficult position, evidently having been instructed by the Quebec Commission to relay to Mr. Diaz some last-minute, unlawful 'rule changes' to give the hometown fighter a reprieve from his duty to make weight at 170 pounds.

read entire article...
3/30/13 3:15 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Edited: 03/30/13 3:17 PM
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orcus - 

"The fact that someone THAT high up at Zuffa would be responding in those texts in that childish and decieving of a way is comical."

What's comical is that you are so feverishly determined to find some outrage over this that even once you are forced to see that no rules were broken, you still cling to the tone of the UFC guy's texts to Nick's douchebag lawyer.

Perhaps you should be making threads demanding a Code of Professionalism in Communications for UFC Representatives, since that seems to be your issue now.

 

 

 


It's not his "tone" as you cannot even truly and accurately pick up tone in type. He LIES. That's not subjective. He flat out denies a conversation happened, that is on VIDEO. More than once. Not only does he lie, he then also takes cheap shots at Nick himself as deflection. EDIT: Look it is right up there in the post above. LMFAO at you trying to spin the issue with those texts as "tone"....

 

 

 

 

Again, I hope you get paid well to say such stupid things and spend so much time trying to pretend nothing shady is going on.

3/30/13 3:17 PM
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SQUEEZIE
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LNPNinja still can't seem to fathom how an AC would set different rules for different promotions.  For some reason, it baffles him that the Montreal commission would use decimals for boxing/Hopkins fight and for the UFC they wouldn't, yet finds it completely normal that the California commission allows elbows in the UFC but no elbows for Strikeforce.

Promotions rules....how the fuck do they work?


how do they work? cause they sure the fuck were not following the promotions weigh-in rules for this one.

they cali commision should have said fuck what strikeforce wants,we run shit here...and we feel like having elbows for this one.
3/30/13 3:24 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 03/30/13 3:32 PM
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"it is a very different practice...if you weigh 170.5 in quebec (depending on the event apparently), then you make weight, but not so in other jurisdictions including nevada"

It's not a different practice in kind or principle whatsoever. It's different in degree only.

Yes or no -- are you okay with rounding 170.4 to 170, but not 170.6 to 170?

"..its an off  the record rule, applied by the same commission, with the same written rules, in an inconsistent manner.."

Who gives a fuck? It's literally not against any rule. The fact that everyone is outraged by rounding taking place to ANY degree in a title fight makes it painfully obvious that apparently no one -- including fighters and managers -- knew the "rules" that ANY commission uses, even when they've been used entirely consistently for years as in the case of NSAC where most events take place.

What good was NSAC's 100% consistency in rounding down to the half pound, when absolutely no one seems at all aware that that was their rule, despite having fought there time after time after time? Yet somehow Quebec's inconsistency is a major problem? lol, you're reaching soooo hard here.

So what are you bitching about? That the guys who don't know the rules ANYWHERE also don't know them in Quebec? That the guys who don't ask about the rules ANYWHERE also don't ask about them in Quebec?

 

The true hilarity comes in the fact that you're reduced to shrieking that the fighters aren't told in advance (which is true of absolutely every AC), but this is actually the ONE time the fighters WERE told in advance -- ever, by any AC as far as we know. They, unlike every other AC at ever other event, did exactly what you say you want, and rather than be happy and praise them for finally stepping up and making the rules clear, all you can say is it's "shady" that they did so.

Do you really not see what a joke you are?

3/30/13 3:26 PM
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orcus
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"Again, I hope you get paid well to say such stupid things and spend so much time trying to pretend nothing shady is going on."

I hope you're paid well to say such provably stupid things and spend so much time complaining about what wholly irrelevant things were said in a conversation between a businessman and a lawyer.

3/30/13 3:30 PM
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orcus
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"the only issue is if they want to set some standard, they need to put it in the rule book"

Literally not a single person has ever suggested they should not put it in the rules. So what do you keep arguing about?

Every single person is in agreement: It would be best if all ACs put their weight tolerances in the regulations, as currently not one of them do as far as I or you are aware. 

 

3/30/13 3:32 PM
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orcus
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" cause they sure the fuck were not following the promotions weigh-in rules for this one."

Of course they were. No UFC rule specifies to what place weights must be recorded.


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