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UnderGround Forums >> Calf Slicer Variations


4/9/13 8:04 AM
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nogidavid
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i plan to try it, don't worry :)

 

do you worry about the reverse heelhook on your top leg?

4/9/13 8:06 AM
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Bloodstorm
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4/9/13 10:10 AM
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rolijuju
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Great details from everyone! I am not an calf slicer guy however being a leg lock guy I will say that both attacks offer counters for the attackers feet. The real answer is the timing and set up of your attack. If you don't catch the guy off guard and get an immediate attack then it is a race. The counter attacker shouldn't have the time to work on the other legs otherwise the set up wasn't perfect. Just my thoughts, both set ups work.
4/9/13 11:24 AM
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mikerobmma
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rolijuju - Great details from everyone! I am not an calf slicer guy however being a leg lock guy I will say that both attacks offer counters for the attackers feet. The real answer is the timing and set up of your attack. If you don't catch the guy off guard and get an immediate attack then it is a race. The counter attacker shouldn't have the time to work on the other legs otherwise the set up wasn't perfect. Just my thoughts, both set ups work.
I agree with what you say. If thrown properly it will surprise them and be hard to counter. Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 12:16 PM
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russkisambist
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rolijuju - Great details from everyone! I am not an calf slicer guy however being a leg lock guy I will say that both attacks offer counters for the attackers feet. The real answer is the timing and set up of your attack. If you don't catch the guy off guard and get an immediate attack then it is a race. The counter attacker shouldn't have the time to work on the other legs otherwise the set up wasn't perfect. Just my thoughts, both set ups work.
That is correct. However when legs are triangled the counter is RIGHT THERE. When feet are crossed one MUST HAVE TO WORK to peal them apart which is fairly hard to begin with and coupled with mentioned timing SHOULD be impossible. NogiDave , this is the reason I'm not concerned with inverted heel hook either. Also remember, an attacker is always proactive. So the defender has to produce a counter, if any available, under fire so to speak, while being in pain... Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 12:17 PM
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Akston
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4/9/13 12:20 PM
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mikerobmma
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russkisambist -
rolijuju - Great details from everyone! I am not an calf slicer guy however being a leg lock guy I will say that both attacks offer counters for the attackers feet. The real answer is the timing and set up of your attack. If you don't catch the guy off guard and get an immediate attack then it is a race. The counter attacker shouldn't have the time to work on the other legs otherwise the set up wasn't perfect. Just my thoughts, both set ups work.
That is correct. However when legs are triangled the counter is RIGHT THERE. When feet are crossed one MUST HAVE TO WORK to peal them apart which is fairly hard to begin with and coupled with mentioned timing SHOULD be impossible. NogiDave , this is the reason I'm not concerned with inverted heel hook either. Also remember, an attacker is always proactive. So the defender has to produce a counter, if any available, under fire so to speak, while being in pain... Phone Post 3.0
Which means that they'll have to counter the triangle of legs while in pain as well. Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 12:57 PM
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MTH
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Edited: 04/09/13 12:59 PM
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Russkisambist:  Definitely agree with OP that your posts have come off a bit prickly.  BUT, hats off to you for creating and posting a video to directly explain your point.  Your contribution has added value to the thread.  I enjoyed the OP's video, and I think your video adds commentary, highlights some risks, and offers an alternate variation that looks very good.

I don't think it's fair to say that the OP is "unqualfied."  He is clearly qualified, and clearly demonstrated three techniques that he is clearly capable of doing with substantial success.  If one has a technique and can apply it as desired, that's not "unqualified." 

What you're concerned with isn't that he's unqualfied, it's that his manner of applying the submission is in your view LESS DESIRABLE than yours because of available counters.  In other words, it's not that the OP was doing the technique wrong, it's that he was doing a technique CORRECTLY that you believe is INFERIOR to a similar technique.

I haven't experimented with any of these, but I expect it may be best (as with so many things) to know multiple variations.

4/9/13 1:42 PM
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rolijuju
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I promise I'm not spamming but at 7:35 of my 5 legal leg locks from 50/50 video you can see a counter that is applicable to the Ruski's option. Of course there is a counter to everything and I like his option a lot. I think you can do both ways. Great thread!!!!!
4/9/13 1:53 PM
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mikerobmma
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While everyone is offering differed views, this thread has been very beneficial and I appreciate everyone's contributions, especially Russki for showing his preferred method. Like I said, feel free to share if you like it. Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:06 PM
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russkisambist
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mikerobmma -
russkisambist -
rolijuju - Great details from everyone! I am not an calf slicer guy however being a leg lock guy I will say that both attacks offer counters for the attackers feet. The real answer is the timing and set up of your attack. If you don't catch the guy off guard and get an immediate attack then it is a race. The counter attacker shouldn't have the time to work on the other legs otherwise the set up wasn't perfect. Just my thoughts, both set ups work.
That is correct. However when legs are triangled the counter is RIGHT THERE. When feet are crossed one MUST HAVE TO WORK to peal them apart which is fairly hard to begin with and coupled with mentioned timing SHOULD be impossible. NogiDave , this is the reason I'm not concerned with inverted heel hook either. Also remember, an attacker is always proactive. So the defender has to produce a counter, if any available, under fire so to speak, while being in pain... Phone Post 3.0
Which means that they'll have to counter the triangle of legs while in pain as well. Phone Post 3.0
No, Mike. With legs triangled the counter is for the grabs RIGHT AWAY. As a matter if fact the very first counter is available before the triangle is even on! And with the triangle there are three more. Did you get a chance to watch my vid? It's all there Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:07 PM
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russkisambist
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rolijuju - I promise I'm not spamming but at 7:35 of my 5 legal leg locks from 50/50 video you can see a counter that is applicable to the Ruski's option. Of course there is a counter to everything and I like his option a lot. I think you can do both ways. Great thread!!!!!
I would like to see that. Where can I ? Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:18 PM
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rolijuju
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legalleglocks.com promise you wont get spammed
4/9/13 2:22 PM
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russkisambist
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MTH -

Russkisambist:  Definitely agree with OP that your posts have come off a bit prickly.  BUT, hats off to you for creating and posting a video to directly explain your point.  Your contribution has added value to the thread.  I enjoyed the OP's video, and I think your video adds commentary, highlights some risks, and offers an alternate variation that looks very good.

I don't think it's fair to say that the OP is "unqualfied."  He is clearly qualified, and clearly demonstrated three techniques that he is clearly capable of doing with substantial success.  If one has a technique and can apply it as desired, that's not "unqualified." 

What you're concerned with isn't that he's unqualfied, it's that his manner of applying the submission is in your view LESS DESIRABLE than yours because of available counters.  In other words, it's not that the OP was doing the technique wrong, it's that he was doing a technique CORRECTLY that you believe is INFERIOR to a similar technique.

I haven't experimented with any of these, but I expect it may be best (as with so many things) to know multiple variations.

Yes, you're more or less correct with your observation. And for the forth time I sincerely apologize for my choice of wording. OP concentrated on set ups ( which are all fine) where I concentrated on finer points of finishing ( heel to but, hand position , rotation of the wrist etc). My disapproval of OP execution boils down to ONE thing only. He says that triangling legs is an option ( btw he doesn't mention other options) where I say that triangling of legs is an absolute detriment to this move and it should be stressed not to do so. ANYONE with any leg lock game will jump all over that triangle to counter hence contributing to a ridiculous notion that leg locks are "risky". May be if you experience this particular situation many times like I did ( sorry if sound arrogant. Not meant this way. Just fact) you'll see the danger of the triangle here. I saw a suggestion of triangle as an amateur advice hence was my original comment of not qualifying. Otherwise I'm sure OP is a good and capable grappler. I never belittle his character or his skills altogether Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:23 PM
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russkisambist
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rolijuju - legalleglocks.com promise you wont get spammed
Spasibo :) Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:51 PM
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russkisambist
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rolijuju - legalleglocks.com promise you wont get spammed
Just watched. Nice! Definitely a keeper! And it will work in my scenario provided one can sneak his forearm under tightly squeezed ankles. That will require effort vs effortlessly snatching triangled legs, you know what I mean? Thanks again! Now I'm gonna watch the whole thing :) Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 2:57 PM
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rolijuju
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Yes sir, we both agree that the attacker has the advantage! I have some nice counters that I'm going to show on my DVD. The problem is, when the guy attacking does it right, the counters don't help. You lost when you put your foot in front of them! haha. But I appreciate your response. I will be doing a seminar tour in Europe and that includes the Ukraine most likely in Aug so if you are around I'd love to meet you.

Roli Delgado.
4/9/13 3:06 PM
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russkisambist
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rolijuju - Yes sir, we both agree that the attacker has the advantage! I have some nice counters that I'm going to show on my DVD. The problem is, when the guy attacking does it right, the counters don't help. You lost when you put your foot in front of them! haha. But I appreciate your response. I will be doing a seminar tour in Europe and that includes the Ukraine most likely in Aug so if you are around I'd love to meet you.

Roli Delgado.
I'd like that DVD very much. Honestly, I'll buy one. Lol at meeting me in Ukraine :) I live in NY and would love to train with you. My e mail is vskjco@yahoo.com Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 3:08 PM
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rolijuju
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I've done a bunch of seminars around CT just outside of NYC. Will holla at you.
4/9/13 5:43 PM
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FullyLoadedFists
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4/9/13 5:45 PM
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nogidavid
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if the person triangling his legs is doing it properly you're not just going to snatch his free foot up

4/9/13 10:02 PM
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spideynhb
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great vids. thanks really enjoyed the details.
4/9/13 10:04 PM
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russkisambist
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nogidavid -

if the person triangling his legs is doing it properly you're not just going to snatch his free foot up

I always assume proper triangle. Even so, the foot is right by your side UNPROTECTED. I know what you mean but it easily within your reach Phone Post 3.0
4/9/13 10:14 PM
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mikerobmma
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For Russki.

Now, I understand what you're saying, however I'm confident in my finish. Let me explain why:

In my first attack, I purposely go to my opposite side. This does a few things for me. One, it prevents the opponent from trying to posture on top of me to defend. Second, it makes it much easier to triangle my legs if I want to, because the floor is not in my way. Regardless, I point out that if I feel that the return leg lock is possible, I don't triangle and just connect my feet together. So, using those above points, the way you display the return leg attacks is a minimal factor as you are not able to triangle your legs completely with the floor in the way.

Now, I noticed your foot placement, and while it is safe, I do not see how it would prevent someone from scooting away from your attack. As you say, the point is to push their heel to their butt, but since you don't have the power of a triangle, they may choose to try to scoot their hips away from their own foot. Certainly not a fool proof option, but a possibility.

Now you did provide some extra details on wrist placement (which I regretted not pointing out more in my video as soon as I watched it), but yes I agree that the bony parts are what finishes the technique. I start from grabbing my thigh, but I try to hunch my body in so I won't lose the pull on the finish. That is why I mention gripping and pulling up into the knee to help generate power when needed. If I start with the thigh grab, I will immediately have my wrist in the correct position, but I should have pointed that out regardless.

Either way, I embedded the video for you. Now I know that you will have counters to what I have had to say and that is fine. However, I would also like to move on to another issue. Some guys I talk to don't believe in slicers. Their idea is that they consider it a "pain" move and while it will tap someone in a roll, they will bite through the pain in a tourney or fight. I say it's bullshit and you can pop the knee, but am I wrong? Is it strictly a pain move? Let me know what you think. As a sambo guy. you have tons of experience with leg locks and I think that you would have an opinion on that, and I bet you've heard people say it before.

Thanks for your contributions.

4/9/13 11:40 PM
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russkisambist
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All valid points. Just one last thing. Feet crossed and pulling with your hamstrings is pretty strong pull. Try it for yourself. Not as string of a lock as triangle but sufficient in given situation. Next... Pain move? Yes it is to a degree. But with a strong pull you can separate a knee. I've seen it happen on few occasions. So even if a tough guy can tolerate calf being sliced there is a chance of something worse happening. Not that it always happens but sometimes it does. I prefer ankle locks thru and thru. Achilles crush represents 70% of my leg lock wins. 25 is knee bars and 5 everything else ( calf crushes, heel hooks and hip subs). I'm very conservative with leg locks and kinda stick to basics. If you want I'll upload another calf crush ( very similar to your third set up with some finer details). If you ever in NY or NJ you're welcome to stop by so we can train and exchange ideas Phone Post 3.0

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