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UnderGround Forums >> GSP weighed 170.4, thought he was over


4/13/13 11:07 AM
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"So in fact you don't refute, and in fact, confirm the accuracy of every one of those statements."

Like I said, they're meaningless

What is the (negative) importance of the Quebec AC having no written rule about rounding when NO athletic commission has such a rule?

What is the (negative) importance of Mersch telling Nick the rounding policy before the fight when apparently that is what we want to happen and apparently no one else is EVER told at ANY time before the fight?

What is the (negative) importance of correctly stating that the rounding policy is not in the official regulations?

 

Without the initial premise that launched a thousand ships of "rounding in a title fight is illegal", none of this has any significance.

You can see the truth of this by the fact that the "journalists" are STILL trying to claim that the standard in title fights is that you must exactly make weight -- their false belief in this is what is making this a story to them.


But it is illegal. . .

By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight.


macedogg...dont get sucked into this black hole...im telling you...turn around and do not enter into this thread again..orcus will literally argue that 1+1=4

to him, it makes no difference that GSP actually weighs over 170...he reads a provision into the contract that the max weight is 170 (as detetermined by the commission's "off-the-record" rounding practice for this specific event)..of course any lawyer will tell you you cant read that parenthetical into the contract but reality has no meaning to orcus...

4/13/13 11:19 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:24 AM
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"But it is illegal. . .By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight."

If it's illegal, why has no one ever made a stink about it? There can be hundreds of thousands of dollars, even millions, on the line if an opponent doesn't make weight. It's always in a fighter's best interest to make his opponent cut as much weight as possible, or to take 10-20% of his purse.

You make the same mistake goku does, you can't seem to comprehend that the weight referred to in the contract is not the number displayed on the scale, but the number determined and recorded by the AC official. GSP's official weight was 170. Therefore that satisfies the condition that he made exact weight for the title fight.

"Exactly. He cannot refute any of those facts, so he just tries to inject his opinions and call everyone stupid if they disagree or find any issues with all of those facts. Typical deflection."

There's nothing to refute. These facts are presumably the basis for your argument. The problem is that they don't support your argument.

Your argument is that what happened at this event was shady.

How does stating that all ACs at all events, Quebec among them, do not have written rules for rounding support this argument?

How does stating that Mersch informed Diaz and GSP of the policy in advance, exactly as we all want, support this argument?

How does stating that Mersch correctly informed them that this rule is not in the regulations support this argument?

Being willing to go against the written rule re: extra time supports the "shady" argument to an extent, however even you know how weak that was as indicated by your desperate need to follow it up immediately with your absurd conspiracy fantasy of favoring the "home town fighter". If no one is being favored, then you are left with a lame rule that no one wants in the first place being broken to benefit both guys, and to fall in line with EVERY other AC's policy of giving an extra hour to guys who miss weight. Illegal yes, shady....not really.

4/13/13 11:23 AM
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orcus
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"of course any lawyer will tell you you cant read that parenthetical into the contract but reality has no meaning to orcus..."

lol...any lawyer except apparently the ones involved in the billion dollar professional fighting business, who would stand to greatly benefit their clients if they were to enforce exact, scale-display weigh-ins.

It can't POSSIBLY be that you two are wrong. OBVIOUSLY it is every other lawyer, agent, manager on the planet who is wrong.

Can one of you show me the language in the contract that specifies the "weight" as "the number displayed on the scale"? YOU are the ones reading "parentheticals into the contract". 

4/13/13 11:23 AM
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orcus
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lol @ goku ducking my questions as a full-time profession.

Why would a fighter for whom 170.4 has never been over suddenly decide that it's over at this particular event, in an AC where he has fought several times and 170.4 has never been over?

4/13/13 11:26 AM
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Macedawgg
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"So in fact you don't refute, and in fact, confirm the accuracy of every one of those statements."

Like I said, they're meaningless

What is the (negative) importance of the Quebec AC having no written rule about rounding when NO athletic commission has such a rule?

What is the (negative) importance of Mersch telling Nick the rounding policy before the fight when apparently that is what we want to happen and apparently no one else is EVER told at ANY time before the fight?

What is the (negative) importance of correctly stating that the rounding policy is not in the official regulations?

 

Without the initial premise that launched a thousand ships of "rounding in a title fight is illegal", none of this has any significance.

You can see the truth of this by the fact that the "journalists" are STILL trying to claim that the standard in title fights is that you must exactly make weight -- their false belief in this is what is making this a story to them.


But it is illegal. . .

By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight.


macedogg...dont get sucked into this black hole...im telling you...turn around and do not enter into this thread again..orcus will literally argue that 1+1=4

to him, it makes no difference that GSP actually weighs over 170...he reads a provision into the contract that the max weight is 170 (as detetermined by the commission's "off-the-record" rounding practice for this specific event)..of course any lawyer will tell you you cant read that parenthetical into the contract but reality has no meaning to orcus...


Are you guys really back to the argument where your opinion is how every AC should round for weigh ins?  That's from 3 -4 weeks ago and I swore we'd move passed that.  It's funny how you all think GSP and heads of AC's should be burned at the stake for allowing 170.1 because it's "over 170" but have absolutely no issue with 170.04, or 170.009, or 170.0007, or 170.00006 and so on, despite the fact  that they are all over 170 as well.  It's like you're under the impression that all AC's of the world should measure to the degree that matches up with your opinion.


Actually--its not opinion at all.

Its statutory, its contractual, and it is what the promotion has publicly said was the case countless times. 

It's you that leaves it up to "off the record" conjecture.

 

P.S.--I'm not burning GSP down at all.  The commissions are derelict, and the promoter is complicit.

4/13/13 11:28 AM
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Macedawgg
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"So in fact you don't refute, and in fact, confirm the accuracy of every one of those statements."

Like I said, they're meaningless

What is the (negative) importance of the Quebec AC having no written rule about rounding when NO athletic commission has such a rule?

What is the (negative) importance of Mersch telling Nick the rounding policy before the fight when apparently that is what we want to happen and apparently no one else is EVER told at ANY time before the fight?

What is the (negative) importance of correctly stating that the rounding policy is not in the official regulations?

 

Without the initial premise that launched a thousand ships of "rounding in a title fight is illegal", none of this has any significance.

You can see the truth of this by the fact that the "journalists" are STILL trying to claim that the standard in title fights is that you must exactly make weight -- their false belief in this is what is making this a story to them.


But it is illegal. . .

By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight.


Show me in the contract where it states how the numbers MUST be rounded and to what degree.


The contract says maximum weight of 170.

They do not say, "we round to the nearest pound." 

Nor has the UFC ever said, "we round to the nearest pound"--quite the opposite. 

Nor have I ever heard any commission say they round--until the Diaz event and leaked video tape.

4/13/13 11:29 AM
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:29 AM
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orcus - 

lol @ goku ducking my questions as a full-time profession.

Why would a fighter for whom 170.4 has never been over suddenly decide that it's over at this particular event, in an AC where he has fought several times and 170.4 has never been over?

 

i told u..if you stray off topic..you lose...so its 1832932381231 goku - 0 orcus..so that now you have conceded defeat on my question we can now move on to your question

 

 

1) GSP has not fought very often ..when he weighs in, he is in a weak, depleted, mentally unfocused state..and the weighins themselves are not what you remember about a fight unless u miss weight...

2) ever think its possible that GSP maybe was on weight exactly in those past weighins?

 

in other words, its very possible that GSP wasnt aware of or didnt recall the rounding (hence the surpise, duh - unless GSP was lying in the interview about being surprised)

4/13/13 11:29 AM
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orcus
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These guys have a major mental block. They just can't get their heads around the fact that the contracts say nothing about the number on the scale.

You can't meet the contract by weighing on the scale in your room. You can't meet it by weighing on the official scale before the official weighin and witnessed by the janitor.

You meet the contract by weighing in at a weighin conducted by the designated official. Your weight is the number determined by that official.

 

4/13/13 11:31 AM
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These guys have a major mental block. They just can't get their heads around the fact that the contracts say nothing about the number on the scale.

You can't meet the contract by weighing on the scale in your room. You can't meet it by weighing on the official scale before the official weighin and witnessed by the janitor.

You meet the contract by weighing in at a weighin conducted by the designated official. Your weight is the number determined by that official.

 


lol..so stupid..and how does the designated official determine the weight?

4/13/13 11:32 AM
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Macedawgg
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orcus - 

These guys have a major mental block. They just can't get their heads around the fact that the contracts say nothing about the number on the scale.

You can't meet the contract by weighing on the scale in your room. You can't meet it by weighing on the official scale before the official weighin and witnessed by the janitor.

You meet the contract by weighing in at a weighin conducted by the designated official. Your weight is the number determined by that official.

 


False.

Your weight is the number shown on the device approved by the commission, and as witnessed by the commission.

It is not the "number determined by that official."  With that standard, we wouldn't need weigh-ins at all--would we?

4/13/13 11:32 AM
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orcus
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"The contract says maximum weight of 170."

Yes, and GSP's weight as determined by the designated official was 170, as it also would have been if it were held in Nevada or numerous other ACs.

"They do not say, "we round to the nearest pound." "

They don't do anything. The weight is determined by the local official.

"Nor has the UFC ever said, "we round to the nearest pound"--quite the opposite. "

Again, the UFC doesn't determine the weight, the AC official does. So the UFC does no rounding.

"Nor have I ever heard any commission say they round--until the Diaz event and leaked video tape."

Whether they said it or not, almost all of them have been doing it for years. It's not a secret. Weighins are public. Anyone who watched them would have realized, anyone who asked would have been told.

4/13/13 11:36 AM
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orcus
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These guys have a major mental block. They just can't get their heads around the fact that the contracts say nothing about the number on the scale.

You can't meet the contract by weighing on the scale in your room. You can't meet it by weighing on the official scale before the official weighin and witnessed by the janitor.

You meet the contract by weighing in at a weighin conducted by the designated official. Your weight is the number determined by that official.

 


False.

Your weight is the number shown on the device approved by the commission, and as witnessed by the commission.

It is not the "number determined by that official."  With that standard, we wouldn't need weigh-ins at all--would we?


lol..."False"? Then surely you must have some contractual language you can post supporting your claim? Because I've made it clear that no actual real-world events -- no disputes or lawsuits or purse-claiming or forced additional weight cutting -- support it.

"Your weight is the number shown on the device approved by the commission"

lol. That's certainly what you want to believe, can you show me the language in any contract that backs it up?

It's staggering we've come full circle back to this now. 

 

4/13/13 11:39 AM
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hmm.orcus taking after his hero and ducking my questions...

 

how does the AC official determine the weight? what does he do?

4/13/13 11:42 AM
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orcus - 

"So in fact you don't refute, and in fact, confirm the accuracy of every one of those statements."

Like I said, they're meaningless

What is the (negative) importance of the Quebec AC having no written rule about rounding when NO athletic commission has such a rule?

What is the (negative) importance of Mersch telling Nick the rounding policy before the fight when apparently that is what we want to happen and apparently no one else is EVER told at ANY time before the fight?

What is the (negative) importance of correctly stating that the rounding policy is not in the official regulations?

 

Without the initial premise that launched a thousand ships of "rounding in a title fight is illegal", none of this has any significance.

You can see the truth of this by the fact that the "journalists" are STILL trying to claim that the standard in title fights is that you must exactly make weight -- their false belief in this is what is making this a story to them.


But it is illegal. . .

By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight.


Show me in the contract where it states how the numbers MUST be rounded and to what degree.


The contract says maximum weight of 170.

They do not say, "we round to the nearest pound." 

Nor has the UFC ever said, "we round to the nearest pound"--quite the opposite. 

Nor have I ever heard any commission say they round--until the Diaz event and leaked video tape.


You're right that the contract states they must weigh 170.  Where in the promoters contract does it state the numbers should be rounded to a certain degree?  Tenth, hundredth, thousandth, billionth, etc....?

Do you think a fighter has missed weight at 170.04?

How about 170.006?

How about 170.000000000000000000000000000000000000009?

Those are all over 170.0

 


yes, im suprised you understand difference between numbers but all of those numbers are greater than 170..

4/13/13 11:43 AM
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:44 AM
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edit

4/13/13 11:43 AM
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orcus
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"i told u..if you stray off topic..you lose...so its 1832932381231 goku - 0 orcus..so that now you have conceded defeat on my question we can now move on to your question"

Uh, what did I "concede", dumbfuck? GSP didn't say he didn't know they round at all, he didn't say what he weighed at the time he was told, he didn't say he thought he was over when he weighed 170.4, he didn't say that at any time he thought he was over. You lied and you're still lying because you are a psychopath.

"1) GSP has not fought very often ..when he weighs in, he is in a weak, depleted, mentally unfocused state..and the weighins themselves are not what you remember about a fight unless u miss weight..."

So then we can discard everything he says about UFC 158 weighins? Then again why are you stating your fantasy of his internal monologue as fact?

"2) ever think its possible that GSP maybe was on weight exactly in those past weighins?"

No, I don't think it's possible that GSP weighed 170.0 in every one of his previous fights.

Do you think it's safer to assume he weighed 170.0 in every one of his previous fights, or is it safer to assume that his weight varied and was rounded down as those ACs did to every fighter on those cards?  This is a good question because you either have to agree with me, or make it clear to everyone that are a desperately reaching troll / idiot.

4/13/13 11:46 AM
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Macedawgg
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orcus - 

These guys have a major mental block. They just can't get their heads around the fact that the contracts say nothing about the number on the scale.

You can't meet the contract by weighing on the scale in your room. You can't meet it by weighing on the official scale before the official weighin and witnessed by the janitor.

You meet the contract by weighing in at a weighin conducted by the designated official. Your weight is the number determined by that official.

 


False.

Your weight is the number shown on the device approved by the commission, and as witnessed by the commission.

It is not the "number determined by that official."  With that standard, we wouldn't need weigh-ins at all--would we?


lol..."False"? Then surely you must have some contractual language you can post supporting your claim? Because I've made it clear that no actual real-world events -- no disputes or lawsuits or purse-claiming or forced additional weight cutting -- support it.

"Your weight is the number shown on the device approved by the commission"

lol. That's certainly what you want to believe, can you show me the language in any contract that backs it up?

It's staggering we've come full circle back to this now. 

 


LOL!

DIVISION  XI
WEIGH-INS

 

73.  An official weigh-in shall take place 8 to 30 hours before the bouts begin, in the presence of the opponents and the organizer.
 
The official weigh-in shall be the responsibility of the person in charge of the sports event.
O.C. 662-95, s. 73; O.C. 392-2004, s. 7.

 

 

74.  The organizer shall provide a scale having a minimum capacity of 200 kg (440 lbs). The scale shall have graduated readings at each 100 g (3.6 oz) and shall be certified by Measurement Canada.

 

The scale shall be electronic and of a model approved by the board. The organizer shall adjust the scale at the official weigh-in, in the presence of the person in charge of the sports event.
O.C. 662-95, s. 74.

 

75.  At an official weigh-in, the scale shall be placed on a hard surface.

 

O.C. 662-95, s. 75.

 

76.  Where the program of a sports event is postponed for a period exceeding 24 hours, the official weigh-in shall be repeated.

 

O.C. 662-95, s. 76.

 

77.  At an official weigh-in, no time shall be granted to a contestant to enable him to increase or decrease his weight.

 

O.C. 662-95, s. 77.

 

 
You were saying Orcus?
4/13/13 11:46 AM
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Uh, what did I "concede", dumbfuck? GSP didn't say he didn't know they round at all, he didn't say what he weighed at the time he was told, he didn't say he thought he was over when he weighed 170.4, he didn't say that at any time he thought he was over. You lied and you're still lying because you are a psychopath.

 

you conceded you couldnt win on the point we were discussing and instead wanted to change the subject to a different topic...

 

if you didnt concede, lets go back to the question, shall we? what was Gsp surpised about?

4/13/13 11:47 AM
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:50 AM
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"how does the AC official determine the weight? what does he do?"

He looks at the scale and rounds the number shown at his or his AC's discretion. Is this a serious question? Again, the weighins are public. You can go to youtube and watch them and see exactly what the official does. Or you can read Kizer's response.

"You were saying Orcus?"

Huh? Where's the part where it says the official weight, or weight as specified in the fighter contracts, is the number shown on the scale? 

And I would think you would be quoting me language from the fighter contracts in any case, not the AC.

4/13/13 11:49 AM
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:50 AM
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"if you didnt concede, lets go back to the question, shall we? what was Gsp surpised about?"

I've told you already. What is the point in arguing with you if you can't read?

The immediately preceding sentence tells us exactly what GSP was surprised about: "As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised.""

There it is. He was surprised that they came to him before weighin and said they ignore the decimal.

 

4/13/13 11:50 AM
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"He looks at the scale and rounds the number shown at his or his AC's discretion. Is this a serious question?"

 

ok. so he looks at the scale. presumably because its reliable right? so if the scale showed GSP weighing 170.4 HOW MUCH DID GSP ACTUALLY WEIGH? forget about the rules, the rounding etc. what was GSP's actual weight at the weighins?

4/13/13 11:52 AM
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Edited: 04/13/13 11:52 AM
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orcus - 

"if you didnt concede, lets go back to the question, shall we? what was Gsp surpised about?"

I've told you already. What is the point in arguing with you if you can't read?

The immediately preceding sentence tells us exactly what GSP was surprised about: "As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised.""

There it is. He was surprised that they came to him before weighin and said they ignore the decimal.

 

 

sorry, i have a hard time following incoherent ramblings...so you are saying he was suprised that they came to him at the weighins to give him the message...but he wasnt surprised at the message itself since he was already aware of the rounding?

 

yes or no?

 

 

4/13/13 11:56 AM
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orcus
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"ok. so he looks at the scale. presumably because its reliable right? so if the scale showed GSP weighing 170.4 HOW MUCH DID GSP ACTUALLY WEIGH? forget about the rules, the rounding etc. what was GSP's actual weight at the weighins?"

Since you're determined to be as pedantic as possible, his "actual" weight is not 170.4. Weight is measured in newtons.

 

4/13/13 11:58 AM
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orcus
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"sorry, i have a hard time following incoherent ramblings...so you are saying he was suprised that they came to him at the weighins to give him the message...but he wasnt surprised at the message itself since he was already aware of the rounding?"

No. He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal.

I'll repost the quote from YOUR LINK yet again since you are having such a hard time following it:

"As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised."""

On second reading, I suppose it's possible that he was surprised that they came to them "just before weighin", and not at the decimal-dropping itself.

4/13/13 11:58 AM
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orcus - 

"ok. so he looks at the scale. presumably because its reliable right? so if the scale showed GSP weighing 170.4 HOW MUCH DID GSP ACTUALLY WEIGH? forget about the rules, the rounding etc. what was GSP's actual weight at the weighins?"

Since you're determined to be as pedantic as possible, his "actual" weight is not 170.4. Weight is measured in newtons.

 


lol...ok...so we have no clue what his actual weight is...might as well rip up the contracts and go UFC 1 mode


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