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UnderGround Forums >> GSP weighed 170.4, thought he was over


4/13/13 11:59 AM
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"sorry, i have a hard time following incoherent ramblings...so you are saying he was suprised that they came to him at the weighins to give him the message...but he wasnt surprised at the message itself since he was already aware of the rounding?"

No. He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal.

I'll repost the quote from YOUR LINK yet again since you are having such a hard time following it:

"As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised."""

On second reading, I suppose it's possible that he was surprised that they came to them "just before weighin", and not at the decimal-dropping itself.


ok...so u admit he was surprised they drop the decimal (ie. round the decimals down to the nearest whole). right? yes or no.

4/13/13 12:01 PM
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"ok. so he looks at the scale. presumably because its reliable right? so if the scale showed GSP weighing 170.4 HOW MUCH DID GSP ACTUALLY WEIGH? forget about the rules, the rounding etc. what was GSP's actual weight at the weighins?"

Since you're determined to be as pedantic as possible, his "actual" weight is not 170.4. Weight is measured in newtons.

 


lol...ok...so we have no clue what his actual weight is...might as well rip up the contracts and go UFC 1 mode


No, not at all. We use the official weight, duh, which, again, is the number the official determines after looking at the scale and applying any additional rounding at his or his AC's discretion. 

 

4/13/13 12:02 PM
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orcus - 

"So in fact you don't refute, and in fact, confirm the accuracy of every one of those statements."

Like I said, they're meaningless

What is the (negative) importance of the Quebec AC having no written rule about rounding when NO athletic commission has such a rule?

What is the (negative) importance of Mersch telling Nick the rounding policy before the fight when apparently that is what we want to happen and apparently no one else is EVER told at ANY time before the fight?

What is the (negative) importance of correctly stating that the rounding policy is not in the official regulations?

 

Without the initial premise that launched a thousand ships of "rounding in a title fight is illegal", none of this has any significance.

You can see the truth of this by the fact that the "journalists" are STILL trying to claim that the standard in title fights is that you must exactly make weight -- their false belief in this is what is making this a story to them.


But it is illegal. . .

By contract, by enabling statute, and by countless public statements from the promotion itself that title fights must be exact weight.


Show me in the contract where it states how the numbers MUST be rounded and to what degree.


The contract says maximum weight of 170.

They do not say, "we round to the nearest pound." 

Nor has the UFC ever said, "we round to the nearest pound"--quite the opposite. 

Nor have I ever heard any commission say they round--until the Diaz event and leaked video tape.


You're right that the contract states they must weigh 170.  Where in the promoters contract does it state the numbers should be rounded to a certain degree?  Tenth, hundredth, thousandth, billionth, etc....?

Do you think a fighter has missed weight at 170.04?

How about 170.006?

How about 170.000000000000000000000000000000000000009?

Those are all over 170.0

 


yes, im suprised you understand difference between numbers but all of those numbers are greater than 170..


If you truly believe a fighter has missed weight and a title should not be up for grabs because they don't measure to a degree of infinity, I see you're too stupid to be debating with.

Carry on with your fake law degree.  Internet arguments are awesome, right?  Hell, maybe next week you can be an astronaut.


its very simple fren...if you contract to make 170..make 170....not 170.1 not 170.01 not 170.0000001....or, if you want to be extra cautious..come in at 169.9...

and just to clarify, no scale goes to infinity. you go by the official scale used to MEASURE THE FUCKING WEIGHT OF THE FIGHTER TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY MADE THE WEIGHT PRESCRIBED BY THE BOUT AGREEMENT

4/13/13 12:03 PM
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orcus
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orcus - 

"sorry, i have a hard time following incoherent ramblings...so you are saying he was suprised that they came to him at the weighins to give him the message...but he wasnt surprised at the message itself since he was already aware of the rounding?"

No. He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal.

I'll repost the quote from YOUR LINK yet again since you are having such a hard time following it:

"As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised."""

On second reading, I suppose it's possible that he was surprised that they came to them "just before weighin", and not at the decimal-dropping itself.


ok...so u admit he was surprised they drop the decimal (ie. round the decimals down to the nearest whole). right? yes or no.


Your reading comprehension is unreal. In my opinion, yes, he was surprised that they drop the decimals. Someone above a 1st grade level could have gathered this when I said, in your quote, "He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal."

4/13/13 12:03 PM
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orcus - 
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"ok. so he looks at the scale. presumably because its reliable right? so if the scale showed GSP weighing 170.4 HOW MUCH DID GSP ACTUALLY WEIGH? forget about the rules, the rounding etc. what was GSP's actual weight at the weighins?"

Since you're determined to be as pedantic as possible, his "actual" weight is not 170.4. Weight is measured in newtons.

 


lol...ok...so we have no clue what his actual weight is...might as well rip up the contracts and go UFC 1 mode


No, not at all. We use the official weight, duh, which, again, is the number the official determines after looking at the scale and applying any additional rounding at his or his AC's discretion. 

 


but the official looks at the scale right? so to not allow you to weasel out (again)...if the scale shows 170.4 and the official says 170...what is more accurate - which is the more precise measure to approximate GSP's actual weight?

4/13/13 12:05 PM
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Edited: 04/13/13 12:05 PM
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orcus - 
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orcus - 

"sorry, i have a hard time following incoherent ramblings...so you are saying he was suprised that they came to him at the weighins to give him the message...but he wasnt surprised at the message itself since he was already aware of the rounding?"

No. He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal.

I'll repost the quote from YOUR LINK yet again since you are having such a hard time following it:

"As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed. "They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised."""

On second reading, I suppose it's possible that he was surprised that they came to them "just before weighin", and not at the decimal-dropping itself.


ok...so u admit he was surprised they drop the decimal (ie. round the decimals down to the nearest whole). right? yes or no.


Your reading comprehension is unreal. In my opinion, yes, he was surprised that they drop the decimals. Someone above a 1st grade level could have gathered this when I said, in your quote, "He was surprised that they were discarding the decimal."

 

the problem is that with you i prove a point after proving a chain of assumptions ..and then you weasel out and say you meant something else, so these steps, while tedious, are necessary...

 

 

so moving on, we have established that GSP was not aware that they dropped the decimal. In a scenario where they do not drop the decimal is 170.4 "over" 170?

4/13/13 12:16 PM
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orcus
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"but the official looks at the scale right? so to not allow you to weasel out (again)...if the scale shows 170.4 and the official says 170...what is more accurate - which is the more precise measure to approximate GSP's actual weight?"  

You mean, which arbitrary degree of divergence from the "actual weight" is more accurate? I suppose that depends on just how accurately the scale is calibrated.

At least you're now finally admitting that the number on the scale is not the "actual weight" and thus "actual weight" is definitively not what is being referred to in ANY contract.

Now that we agree "actual weight" is absolutely not what is referred to in the contract, why are you insisting in spite of no evidence that the number the official arrives at by consulting the scale and applying rounding is not the number that IS referred to as "weight"?

"so moving on, we have established that GSP was not aware that they dropped the decimal. In a scenario where they do not drop the decimal is 170.4 "over" 170?"

How can someone be this fucking stupid? NO, in a scenario where decimals aren't dropped, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN:

170.4 *is* 170 in every UFC event Quebec has ever had, every Vegas event, Brazil, Minnesota, Illinois...

4/13/13 12:21 PM
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"You mean, which arbitrary degree of divergence from the "actual weight" is more accurate? I suppose that depends on just how accurately the scale is calibrated.

At least you're now finally admitting that the number on the scale is not the "actual weight" and thus "actual weight" is definitively not what is being referred to in ANY contract.

Now that we agree "actual weight" is absolutely not what is referred to in the contract, why are you insisting in spite of no evidence that the number the official arrives at by consulting the scale and applying rounding is not the number that IS referred to as "weight"?"

 

i never admitted it isnt the actual weight...i used that language because you tried to be a bitch and avoid my question by saying we cant know his actual weight...

are you saying the decimals on the scale are arbitrary?

and you dont have to read "actual weight" in the contract.. the plain reading implies that the weight you are measuring by is the actual weight. that is the null hypothetis absent language to the contrary...lol..i love the point when you know youve won and the opponent starts to desperately grasp for straws

4/13/13 12:22 PM
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orcus - 

"but the official looks at the scale right? so to not allow you to weasel out (again)...if the scale shows 170.4 and the official says 170...what is more accurate - which is the more precise measure to approximate GSP's actual weight?"  

You mean, which arbitrary degree of divergence from the "actual weight" is more accurate? I suppose that depends on just how accurately the scale is calibrated.

At least you're now finally admitting that the number on the scale is not the "actual weight" and thus "actual weight" is definitively not what is being referred to in ANY contract.

Now that we agree "actual weight" is absolutely not what is referred to in the contract, why are you insisting in spite of no evidence that the number the official arrives at by consulting the scale and applying rounding is not the number that IS referred to as "weight"?

"so moving on, we have established that GSP was not aware that they dropped the decimal. In a scenario where they do not drop the decimal is 170.4 "over" 170?"

How can someone be this fucking stupid? NO, in a scenario where decimals aren't dropped, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN:

170.4 *is* 170 in every UFC event Quebec has ever had, every Vegas event, Brazil, Minnesota, Illinois...


so let me get is straight..u are sayinng if quebec didnt drop decimals, 170.4 is equal to 170?

4/13/13 12:24 PM
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"How can someone be this fucking stupid? NO, in a scenario where decimals aren't dropped, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN:

170.4 *is* 170 in every UFC event Quebec has ever had, every Vegas event, Brazil, Minnesota, Illinois..."


Dude, he clearly asked if 170.4 > 170.0 in the hypothetical where the commission does not drop or round down. The answer is YES. To try and spin or deny that is what is "fucking stupid". Providing examples of commisisons that DO round down or "drop" as your evidence is completely retarded as he asked in the hypothetical that a commission does NOT do that....herp to the fucking derp.

4/13/13 12:25 PM
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orcus
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"are you saying the decimals on the scale are arbitrary?"

Of course.

" the plain reading implies that the weight you are measuring by is the actual weight."

The weight you are measuring by? What the fuck does that mean? 

So Tweedale wiil win his lawsuit and get Nick his rematch, right? I mean, Nick is retired without the rematch, so certainly there is every reason in the world to go ahead with it, right, and any judge will have to agree with you?

A more sensible reading says that the official weight is what is referred to, because every mention of weight refers to the official weighin. The official weight is what is determined at the official weighin. The official weight may use some degree of rounding. 

Here's a fun little tidbit from the science world for you: "When a quantity is known only to a low precision, a calculation that gives a non-round number is oftentimes rounded in order to avoid giving a false impression of accuracy."

4/13/13 12:27 PM
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orcus
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"so let me get is straight..u are sayinng if quebec didnt drop decimals, 170.4 is equal to 170?"

Uh...of course. Just like in Nevada etc.

Let me get this straight:

Are you saying that if Quebec drops decimals, 170.4 is equal to 170?

 

4/13/13 12:28 PM
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orcus - 

"are you saying the decimals on the scale are arbitrary?"

Of course.

" the plain reading implies that the weight you are measuring by is the actual weight."

The weight you are measuring by? What the fuck does that mean? 

So Tweedale wiil win his lawsuit and get Nick his rematch, right? I mean, Nick is retired without the rematch, so certainly there is every reason in the world to go ahead with it, right, and any judge will have to agree with you?

A more sensible reading says that the official weight is what is referred to, because every mention of weight refers to the official weighin. The official weight is what is determined at the official weighin. The official weight may use some degree of rounding. 

Here's a fun little tidbit from the science world for you: "When a quantity is known only to a low precision, a calculation that gives a non-round number is oftentimes rounded in order to avoid giving a false impression of accuracy."


so when you say the decimal is arbitrary, you are saying it has 0 value in terms of measuring the person's weight?

pretty strange they will use a scale (presumably the same scale they use for events where they dont drop decimals) that has arbitrary values...maybe they should spend the extra $20 to get a scale that will accurately measure the weight that is displayed on the screen....

4/13/13 12:31 PM
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orcus - 

"so let me get is straight..u are sayinng if quebec didnt drop decimals, 170.4 is equal to 170?"

Uh...of course. Just like in Nevada etc.

Let me get this straight:

Are you saying that if Quebec drops decimals, 170.4 is equal to 170?

 


ok...so you are essentially saying that GSP thought they rounded to the nearest .5  but wasn't aware they rounded to the nearest whole. correct? yes or no.

 

and to answer your question so you dont cry...yes if they drop decimals 170.4 is equal to 170..but that has no bearing on what a person actually thinks, which is the issue at hand

4/13/13 12:31 PM
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"Dude, he clearly asked if 170.4 > 170.0 in the hypothetical where the commission does not drop or round down. The answer is YES. To try and spin or deny that is what is "fucking stupid". Providing examples of commisisons that DO round down or "drop" as your evidence is completely retarded as he asked in the hypothetical that a commission does NOT do that....herp to the fucking derp."

No. He didn't ask about a hypothetical where  no rounding takes place. herp derp indeed.

Here's what he asked since you, like goku, cannot read: "In a scenario where they do not drop the decimal is 170.4 "over" 170?""

The answer is: Not necessarily. There are two other scenarios possible.

1) Little or no rounding is done and 170.4 is 170.4. GSP has never been involved in this scenario as far as I know.

2) Rounding to the half pound is done and 170.4 becomes 170. This has been the case in all of GSP's title fights afaik.

 

4/13/13 12:32 PM
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 a "cerebral fighter" would man TF up & give Nick his 20%.

 

....you didn't need to cheat,.... dummy.

 

4/13/13 12:34 PM
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"ok...so you are essentially saying that GSP thought they rounded to the nearest .5  but wasn't aware they rounded to the nearest whole. correct? yes or no."

That would be my guess, yes.

My assumption is based on:

GSP giving absolutely zero indication at any time that he was worried about making weight.

GSP giving absolutely zero indication that he was over weight.

GSP having all or most of his fights in ACs where his weight was rounded down.

GSP having little or no experience of an AC where no rounding was used.

"and to answer your question so you dont cry...yes if they drop decimals 170.4 is equal to 170..but that has no bearing on what a person actually thinks, which is the issue at hand"

So 170.4 is equal to 170 depending on the rounding applied, yes? Therefore there IS a scenario where even without dropping the decimals, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170, yes? And is that in fact the most common scenario in the UFC?

 

4/13/13 12:38 PM
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"ok...so you are essentially saying that GSP thought they rounded to the nearest .5  but wasn't aware they rounded to the nearest whole. correct? yes or no."

That would be my guess, yes.

My assumption is based on:

GSP giving absolutely zero indication at any time that he was worried about making weight.

GSP giving absolutely zero indication that he was over weight.

GSP having all or most of his fights in ACs where his weight was rounded down.

GSP having little or no experience of an AC where no rounding was used.

"and to answer your question so you dont cry...yes if they drop decimals 170.4 is equal to 170..but that has no bearing on what a person actually thinks, which is the issue at hand"

So 170.4 is equal to 170 depending on the rounding applied, yes? Therefore there IS a scenario where even without dropping the decimals, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170, yes? And is that in fact the most common scenario in the UFC?

 


ok...just to be absolutely clear..

GSP believed that the quebec commission rounds to the nearest .5....

 

isnt that just a wee bit inconsistent with your assertion (that you repeat ad naseum) that GSP as well as everyone else should have been very aware of how the quebec AC actually treated decimals since he as fought there three times or whatever?

 

 

 

4/13/13 12:43 PM
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Edited: 04/13/13 12:43 PM
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"isnt that just a wee bit inconsistent with your assertion (that you repeat ad naseum) that GSP as well as everyone else should have been very aware of how the quebec AC actually treated decimals since he as fought there three times or whatever?"

The Quebec AC, as has been pointed out numerous times, has sometimes used whole pounds and sometimes half pounds. Since GSP has fought many times in Vegas and other times where they used half pounds, once or twice in Quebec using half pounds, it seems highly plausible he was unaware that sometimes they use only whole pounds. At most one or two of his fights there used whole pounds, and as he was presumably within a half pound of 170, there would have been nothing to indicate to him that only whole pounds were used.

Your turn, yes or no:

Is 170.4 is equal to 170 depending on the rounding applied?

Is there therefore a scenario where even without dropping the decimals, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170?

Is that in fact the most common scenario in the UFC?

4/13/13 12:50 PM
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Where's the outcry???  No .1, .2, .4, .7, etc...  Or would it just be a huge issue if a UFC rep would have told Scott Jorgensen how the weigh ins work so then you could call it a conspiracy?

 

125 lbs.: Urijah Faber (136 lbs.) vs. Scott Jorgensen (135.5 lbs.)
185 lbs.: Uriah Hall (185 lbs.) vs. Kelvin Gastelum (186 lbs.) (TUF 17 tournament final)
265 lbs.: Travis Browne (239) vs. Gabriel Gonzaga (261)
135 lbs.: Miesha Tate (135.5 lbs.) vs. Cat Zingano (136 lbs.)
185 lbs.: Robert “Bubba” McDaniel (184.5) vs. Gilbert Smith (185)

Prelim Card (FUEL TV, 7 p.m. ET)
185 lbs.: Kevin Casey (185) vs. Josh Samman (184.5)
185 lbs.: Luke Barnatt (185) vs. Collin Hart (184.5)
185 lbs.: Dylan Andrews (186) vs. Jimmy Quinlan (185)
185 lbs.: Clint Hester (185) vs. Bristol Marunde (185.5)

Prelim Card (Facebook, 5:30 p.m. ET)
145 lbs.: Cole Miller (146) vs. Bart Palaszewski (145)
145 lbs.: Justin Lawrence (145) vs. Daniel Pineda (145)
145 lbs.: Sam Sicilia (146) vs. Maximo Blanco (147)*


Bro, these fighters are so good at cutting weight that they all make it in at half-pound denominations. Even the guy who was overweight. They want no part of this controversy about decimals, and they don't need any shady hometown commissions bending rules for them.
4/13/13 12:55 PM
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Edited: 04/13/13 12:56 PM
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"The Quebec AC, as has been pointed out numerous times, has sometimes used whole pounds and sometimes half pounds. Since GSP has fought many times in Vegas and other times where they used half pounds, once or twice in Quebec using half pounds, it seems highly plausible he was unaware that sometimes they use only whole pounds. At most one or two of his fights there used whole pounds, and as he was presumably within a half pound of 170, there would have been nothing to indicate to him that only whole pounds were used."

 

ok, so we agree its not so obvious how quebec treats decimals and it would have been a better practice to codify their treatment and apply the rule consistently...glad we could come to terms on something...

 

 

"Is 170.4 is equal to 170 depending on the rounding applied?"

this question doesnt really make sense, but i assume you are asking if its possible for 170.4 to be 170 if rounding applies. that answer is yes.

"Is there therefore a scenario where even without dropping the decimals, 170.4 is NOT "over" 170?"

again, you need to articulate your questions more clearly, but if you are saying that for a commision that rounds to the nearest whole, for example, 170.4  is not over 170, the answer is yes.

"Is that in fact the most common scenario in the UFC?"

 i dont know

 

now that i have humored you with this pointless exercise..lets get back on point k? did i lie with my thread title..here is the full applicable text of the article (not weasily edited by you):

 

As Diaz, the star of the UFC fighter has only learned in the minutes before weighing the Liquor races and games of Quebec does not take account of the weight saving decimal observed.

"They came to us just before weighing and even I was surprised. They told us they were going round. I was also surprised that Nick Diaz "St. Pierre said Thursday in an interview with The Associated Press to lather the publication of his book The fighting spirit, published by Flammarion.

 

Now maybe I am crazy, but when GSP said he was surprised, he was talking about his next sentence "they told us they were going round" and not the prior sentence in the article by the author that GSP didnt have the benefit of seeing.

So looking at his words very plainly based upon this reading, he is saying he is surprised they round. PERIOD. there is no other statement that he makes that qualifes this.

 

170.4 to 170 is rounding.

 

now, i am sure you will come up with some nonsensical way to spin this, but the reality is that my interpretaiton is a very reasonable one (in fact the most reasonable one). so if I was mistaken, ok...but that is not a lie...got it?

4/13/13 1:20 PM
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Winston Wolf
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i said if it wasnt adressed by UFC which is debatable
4/13/13 1:24 PM
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Winston Wolf
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why the rep say .9 in the off the record video not .4 ill tell u why because they werent sure GSP could make the .4 which he did
4/13/13 1:32 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 04/13/13 1:33 PM
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"ok, so we agree its not so obvious how quebec treats decimals and it would have been a better practice to codify their treatment and apply the rule consistently...glad we could come to terms on something..."

I said weeks ago it would be great if they put it in writing. The only difference is I don't really care if they do it or not. Most likely putting it in writing would just mean more fighters would miss weight because they would target the new number and not have the buffer rounding provides.

"if you are saying that for a commision that rounds to the nearest whole, for example, 170.4  is not over 170, the answer is yes."

No. Put it this way: Does a commission that rounds to the half pound satisfy both your criteria, i.e., NOT dropping decimals AND making 170.4 equivalent to 170?

" i dont know"

Are more UFCs in Vegas than anywhere else?

In Vegas is 170.4 over 170?

You should be able to combine the answers to those questions to reach an answer to the question I originally asked.

"Now maybe I am crazy, but when GSP said he was surprised, he was talking about his next sentence"

lol...why would he be talking about his next sentence and not THAT sentence? "They came to us before weighin and even I was surprised." Why would you not assume he was surprised they came to him, period?

There are three things he could be referring to, I'll put them in order from most unusual to least unusual:

  1. That they approached him to tell him the weighin policy. This has never happened at any event to any fighter as far as we know.
  2. That they dropped the decimal. This doesn't happen at all that many events as far as we know, in fact half of GSP's fights in Quebec and none of his events in Vegas did it.
  3. That they round at all. This has happened at all of GSP's Quebec events, all of his Vegas events, and most or all of any events he has had elsewhere. 
Funny how you assume that he is referring NOT to the MOST unusual event, referred to in the exact sentence in which he says he is surprised. Nor the second most unusual event, referred to in the immediately preceding sentence. No, you conclude he refers to what is not only the least unusual, but in fact downright standard-procedure-at-UFC-events, mentioned in the following sentence.
 
"ut the reality is that my interpretaiton is a very reasonable one"
 
I'm afraid it still isn't. Even if he didn't know they round at all -- a big stretch to make -- you have no reason at all to assume he was over 170 at the time, or knew he was over 170 at the time. There is no reasonable evidence that he was overweight -- for the first time in his career; or was aware of it -- yet gave no indication of being concerned about making weight.
 
Considering he actually was only 170.4 at weighin, and thus wouldn't have been "over" 170 at all if he stripped down, how on earth could he have been "over" BEFORE weighin? He obviously didn't cut further after being told they would drop the decimal, in fact it is reasonable to assume he would drink a bit of gatorade or something if anything, as fighters often do even between the scale and the staredown. So the most reasonable conclusion would be that if anything he weighed LESS than 170.4 -- and thus REALLY "not over" when considering stripping down -- when the commission approached him.
 
When your statement depends on a whole string of absurd assumptions that fly in the face of past events, experience, and facts...you're either a complete moron or a liar.
 
You want to assume that GSP was surprised that they round at all, despite all the ACs he has fought in rounding his weight down.
 
You want to assume that GSP was, at that time, finished with his cut and over weight for the first time in his career.
 
You want to assume that after being told decimals would be dropped, he inexplicably continued to cut weight, coming in at 170.4 in shorts.
 
Basically here's what it boils down to: For GSP to have "thought he was over" at the time he was told of the rounding, he would have had to have been 1) finished with his cut, 2) over 170, AND 3) expected no rounding whatsoever to take place. Yet we know that 170.4 in shorts would have been 170 stripped down if not lighter, so either 1 or 2 or both are false, and 3 flies in the face of all of GSP's experience in the UFC.
 
 
 
4/14/13 10:22 AM
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orcus
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Poor Goku...

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/4/14/4222766/ufc-158-canadian-newspaper-misquote-georges-st-pierre-fight-weight-nick-diaz-mma

A liar AND wrong...


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